Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Prize support is disappointing

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I'd be happy to pay $10 to have $15,000 in trophies and medals go down to everyone that made cut. By the time you get to Nats, you have all the cards you need, so the booster packs are less of a prize than a small trophy or trophy card would be.

I'd also be happy to pay $5 for SPT events as well. This is nothing compared to what we spend on cards, sleeves, and travel.
 
@Jeffrey:Disagree with everything I said? Or just some parts?

Worlds is a closed event, it has qualifiers that take place on previous days. Everyone who plays at worlds will have played many rounds before worlds to earn that place. You want to ignore all that previous play in order to declare that worlds is a small event? If you do want to ignore all that previous play then should you not also ignore the previous play at every event? Which means that you define an event difficulty by its last day. Whilst that may capture some of the endurance aspect it is little more than saying the hardest event is the one that requires players to stay awake the longest.
 
Besides, the concept of paying for entry is not foreign to us. Is $25 enough of a deterrent to keep 100+ players from entering pre-releases?

You can tell I'm a fan of adding entry fees, but they shouldn't all just be instated at the same time. Rather, do them at U. S. Nationals for this year, and then - if deemed successful by the marketing brass - spread them to over top tier events, like Regionals.
 
Pity that you have invited the sarcastic response :( The sarcastic response has to be dealt with....
jeffrey123 said:
But can anyone else relate? Just SOMETHING that I can come home with to show my parents or display!! Maybe a figure or something...ANYTHING

inb4 sarcastic comment etc...
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Actually that is a reasonable request. One worth exploring. Isn't there already something tangible that you brought back from nationals? Did you manage to not get ANYTHING? I only make the statement in order to lead onto a different question: does your request actually reduce to a belief that intangible rewards are always less valuable that tangible ones? That "I had a great time and can't wait for next year" is always less valuable than "look at this card that I got" (and so did lots of others)?

Just how valuable would a top cut trophy card be on the secondary market? If the answer was not a lot (say , $20) then won't it too be dismissed as of little value since 9 boosters is already more than $20?

---------- Post added 07/08/2012 at 06:34 AM ----------

Cyrus, I believe it is the marketing brass who are insisting on no entry fees in the USA. Germany has no entry fees due to tax laws.

$25 for a release isn't really a fee at all since it is a discount on the retail price.
 
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NoPoke said:
Actually that is a reasonable request. One worth exploring. Isn't there already something tangible that you brought back from nationals? Since I know the answer to that is that there is, I'll ask a different question: does your request actually reduce to a belief that intangible rewards are always less valuable that tangible ones? I had a great time and can't wait for next year is always less valuable than look at this card that I got (and so did lots of others)?

Just how valuable would a top cut trophy card be on the secondary market? If the answer was not a lot (say , $20) then won't it too be dismissed as of little value since 18 boosters is already more than $20?

---------- Post added 07/08/2012 at 06:34 AM ----------

Cyrus, I believe it is the marketing brass who are insisting on no entry fees in the USA. Germany has no entry fees due to tax laws.

$25 for a release isn't really a fee at all since it is a discount on the retail price.
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You're missing the point completely. There is no intangible "reward" (other than CP). We all played to have fun and some of us did well. Those of us who did well should be proud. Is that our "reward"? You can get that same "reward" from a number of things including bowling, fishing, and underwater basket weaving. That "reward" could even come from winning the "hit your head against the wall" competition (very popular in some European countries I'm told). That is not a real reward because it applies to anything involving competition and gaming.

What we're looking for is some recognition that we succeeded. To a player good enough to make T32, 18 packs means almost nothing. They aren't special packs. They're valuable physically, but they don't represent anything. Those packs can be interchangable for any other sealed packs and mean the exact same thing to the player. After the player opens the packs, the good cards go into the binder... end of story. What we're looking for is something that points us out as the chosen ones who were among the top 32 best players at US nationals. A stamped promo would do that. A trophy would do that. Even a hug and a shout out from Dave Schwimmer would do that. We got less top 32ing US nats than we would have gotten winning cities. To me, at least, that shows that winning a cities should give you more recognition than T32ing nats according to P!P. We all know that that isn't the case.

We just want something special that makes the journey feel worth something. Stamped promos probably wouldn't sell for a whole lot. People may complain, but more people will be satisfied with that then a few packs. As I said before, packs mean almost nothing to just about everyone who received them. At least stamped promos would be special to a few people.
 
^That isn't lost on me either, and one way to look at it is that the shirts and promos themselves are a "product." It just so happens that the sale of those products would add the revenue necessary to pad the biggest event/s of the season with an unprecedented treasure trove. :)
 
Z-man, I think you are missing the point. For example the dissonance in your statement
packs mean almost nothing to just about everyone who received them. At least stamped promos would be special to a few people
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Special to a few therefore worthless to most applies to your stamped promos as well. As long as that dissonance persists how can you ever value what you have over what you don't have?
 
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You like that word... dissonance... don't you? :)

Stamped promos are unique and different. They might not be valuable to those who did not earn them, but at least they are different. The stamped promos would be special to the people who matter... the people who earned them. Prizes are meant to reward good performance. Getting nothing for T64 isn't very rewarding, now is it? Getting nearly meaningless product for T32 isn't amazingly rewarding, either. If we're going to get near-valueless product for doing well, we may as well get valueless product that is unique. Stamped cards would have the same value as trophies. They'd be good to put on a trophy shelf... but they wouldn't be good for very much else. Even so, "good job... here are a few booster packs" doesn't sound as good as "good job. Here's a unique card to commemorate your victory".

When you break it down, trophies are basically useless. Why give trophies for winning cities and states? Because they feel special and make the journey that much more memorable. Stamped cards serve the same purpose as trophies. They give personal value to your journey that can be represented in a physical form.

That being said, I'm just one person talking. I speak for myself and no one more. If we create a properly constructed poll, we'd be able to figure out how the community feels.

I don't know if you realize this, but I'm arguing to add a card... not remove booster packs. Nobody hates getting free product, but that product just doesn't feel special.
 
I still see too much focus upon reward and not enough on recognition. The tangible reward vs the intangible recognition. How will the stamped promo with little tangible value satisfy the desire for reward? How does it avoid becoming a useless trophy dismissed by the player base.? If you are proud of your top finish then display the nationals promo card.

I don't disagree with anyone who says that pokemon boosters fail as a reward for top players. Which is why I get confused by those same players insisting they should have more boosters. More of something you don't value doesn't make it more valued, it tends to have the opposite effect. The motivation for demanding more locally is in order to sell more on ebay! YMMV.

I like the Battle Road promos but I know many players who dismiss them as a pokeball.
 
It's not just US Nationals. Prize support generelly tends to be too low for really big events in masters. I got more prizes for screwing up at a small BR than for finishing 2nd at Prague Cup with a 7-1 score, just to be kicked out by a 45-minute top cut time limit.

Second place at Austrian Nationals (28 Masters) got more prizes than second place at ECC (>200 masters).

The reason for this is, prizes for all age groups and all events of the same type of Premier Event (well, Nationals have at least some differences depending on player base in that country) are the same. At a logistic point of view, it would be very complicated to provide a fair prize support to everyone. I think that's why it is as it is. :/

For Europe, in addition, Prague Cup and ECC don't have the support that Nationals have, so the prizes are lower, even if the player numbers and difficulty are a lot higher.

But NoPoke made a good point.
Winning ECC is something you can be more proud of than winning a 10-player-Regionals in Austria, even if physical prizes and Championship Points are the same. And of course, you get more fame, considering how much the coverages have increased during the lase years. :)
 
I love that Pokemon puts more prize support in the league play than in the tournament. Yes, I did see people abuse the situation and just constantly line up. But I love that they value people building relationships, giving away swag, and side tournaments.

Should there be more? I dunno. I was pretty grateful for the opportunity to play so many rounds, against so many different people, snag a free shirt, and loads of freebies.

The convention center probably ran at least $10K to rent out just to house the tournament. And they probably spent $20K on decorations/prize support/pay/give-aways/shipping, and who else knows what.

In these other countries, their costs for running the nationals has got to be incredibly cheaper.

Pokemon's bottom line, I have to believe, is making money. I'd love to know if Nationals and Worlds is more than just amazing marketing. But considering how much they are spending to promote the sport, I feel like they are VERY generous.
 
z-man said:
I find it VERY difficult to believe that stamping a card would be super expensive. They sent out thousands of stamped cards for prereleases. There is no way that printing 128 stamped cards per division would cost that much. It would make top cutting feel special without costing TPCi all that much.
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But who said you needed to stamp it? It could just be a card that has something to do with Nationals. Pokemon could just get of all the people in T128/64 and put that picture on the card. I think that would be awesome.
 
I'm surprised that the prize structure was not known before hand. Wasn't it publicized that T32 would get 16 packs?
 
BJJ763 said:
I'm surprised that the prize structure was not known before hand. Wasn't it publicized that T32 would get 16 packs?
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It certainly was. I think that the shock of doing well and then getting nothing but packs prompted this thread.

NoPoke, the difference between BR promos and nats stamped promos is that most people don't feel they accomplished something huge by winning a BR, so the promo isn't much of a momento or a "good job you've achieved something" prize. A nats promo, no matter how bad/inconsequential would mean more to the player than a BR promo.

Pokeplayer101 said:
But who said you needed to stamp it? It could just be a card that has something to do with Nationals. Pokemon could just get of all the people in T128/64 and put that picture on the card. I think that would be awesome.
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That'd require taking a pic AND THEN printing it. Unless they have printing machines in Indianapolis, that'd be a hassle. They'd have to ship it to all T128/64 players. If they could do that, though, that'd be AMAZING
 
Basing it off other card games, magic gives money, but we already know that is not likely. Yugioh tend to give decent support at first glance add all the prizes up to the place, for instance first gets all the prizes listed here:

Place


Prizes

1st-6th

Invite to World Championship
Travel & Accommodations to World Championship
Complete set of Order of Chaos and Galactic Overlord
Super Rare Yu-Gi-Oh! Championship Series Prize Card: Blood Mefist
Tablet PC
Personalized Jersey (TBD)

1st

18 packs each of Generation Force, Photon Shockwave, Order of Chaos, and Galactic Overlord

2nd

12 packs each of Generation Force, Photon Shockwave, Order of Chaos, and Galactic Overlord

3rd-4th

9 packs each of Generation Force, Photon Shockwave, Order of Chaos, and Galactic Overlord

5th-8th

6 packs each of Generation Force, Photon Shockwave, Order of Chaos, and Galactic Overlord

7th-8th

32GB MP3 Player

Top 8

Trophy

9th-16th

Complete Set of Galactic Overlord
6 packs each of Generation Force, Photon Shockwave, Order of Chaos, and Galactic Overlord

Top 32

Super Rare Yu-Gi-Oh! Championship Series Prize Card: Blood Mefist

Top 64

Top Cut Game Mat

Participation

Pack of World Championship Qualifier 2012 Sleeves
World Championship Qualifier 2012 Game Mat

Of course this not to say "yugioh is better" I in fact love this game a lot more, Yugioh charges nothing due to it being an invite only event. However they do in fact have a much bigger budget to work with that while we cannot match it we can learn from it. I think sleeves, mats and card that say "top 128", top 64 tec will have a big impact. They used to produced them for pre-releases (at least sleeves and stamp promos). They will need to make only 128 of them. and then top 16 or 32 can get the mats.
 
Z-man I don't think you understand what I'm getting at. I'd love to see stamped promos for nationals. But I don't see that it would in any way reduce complaints that the "prize support is disappointing" if a player does not value the achievement then no amount of stuff is going to make them change their mind.

If you are going to use tokens to try and change player's minds to value the achievement then you have to be very careful that the value isn't seen to be in the token itself rather than the achievement. Its not easy to get right. The Battle Road promos are a good example: valued by some and dismissed by others.
 
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as far as i know,the trip to worlds from europe is mostly or all payed by the distributor in europe.TPCI only pays 10 percent-if it does.at least it was like that in Slovenia when it still had OP.
 
ticka222 said:
as far as i know,the trip to worlds from europe is mostly or all payed by the distributor in europe.TPCI only pays 10 percent-if it does.at least it was like that in Slovenia when it still had OP.
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Although this is not connected to the main topic here - afaik TPCi pays all the trips at European Nationals this year. 2008-2011 Amigo paid additional trips for Germany and Austria, but I don't know about any other trips paid by distributors.
 
I like how nobody mentions that everyone got a free shirt and a promo card just for entering. I mean seriously, there hasn't been prize support for worse than T32 forever at Nationals. Pokemon has stayed away from charging for events, but I guess I understand if you charge 2$ per person, the issue is logistics, things start to get more complicated when money starts getting involved.

Drew
 
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