Here's my take on why the Call for Family is allowed on Eevee even when there are 4 Eevee in public-information areas: as long as it is "feasible" that you could add another one to your Bench, it allows it. Essentially, it allows you to inspect your deck for other cards plus get a shuffle if it's not a huge timing issue. But, this could definitely be gamed if abused...
Public Infromation: For Informational Purposes Only?
- Thread starter yoshi1001
- Start date
yoyofsho16
New Member
Well... that is kind of what the ruling says, so yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The game doesn't know that you can't get anything.
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I am perfectly content with how the game runs. I don't have any issues. Like I said, I can use this early on to determine Claydols and what things are prized, as can you. No one has a disadvantage.
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ZAKtheGeek
New Member
That's because it can be shown that you have no pokemon in your discard pile. It's public information. You can't show a lack of Eevee in the deck unless the deck is empty; you can only deduce it. The game is stupid; you have to show directly, not indirectly.Skitty said:
Is that really the case, or is it just an impossible play? I think this is the exact same situation as if you try to Candy a Chimchar but you don't have an Infernape in your hand. You play the Candy, choose your pokemon, "ummm... guess I can't complete this effect," and then you have to take it back into your hand. That would be sufficient to stop Candying of Darkrais. Also, the whole concept behind Rare Candy assumes you know the evolution lines. Like, Infernape says, "evolves from Monferno," and at that point you have to just know that Monferno evolves from Chimchar, even though it's not written on any of the cards involved. So since evolution lines are considered to be known, you can't try to evolve an unevolvable pokemon. That's a possible alternative justification.
Although, could you use, say, Evoluter, on a last-stage evolution? Hmmm...
As I recall, Evoluter lets you evolve any of your Pokemon (other than, like babies), so as long as one of them could possibly evolve, you would be okay.
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
Yeah, but what I'm saying is, what if it can't evolve? Like if you try to evolve a Registeel or a Swalot?
Having looked over some rulings, I get the feeling that you would not be allowed to choose those pokemon because they have no evolutions, which supports the idea of known evolution lines. So, though it's an extremely academic question, I guess you couldn't fail to find an evolution to Darkrai with Rare Candy, since you couldn't target it in the first place.
Having looked over some rulings, I get the feeling that you would not be allowed to choose those pokemon because they have no evolutions, which supports the idea of known evolution lines. So, though it's an extremely academic question, I guess you couldn't fail to find an evolution to Darkrai with Rare Candy, since you couldn't target it in the first place.
Master_Whiscash_77
New Member
I think it meant if you had 2 Eevees in your discard and two in play, for example, then you would have 4 in play or discarded. It most likely did not mean 4 in play or 4 discarded.
I think another thing missed in all of this is the game doesn't always know who built a legal deck or if it's Sealed vs Constructed. An opponent may have mistakenly misbuilt his/her deck and had a 5th Eevee in the deck you don't knwo that the deck doesn't know that sure there's 4 in the discard and sure 5 is illegal but u don't know he/she misbuilt ur assuming they didn't. Also with the same attack in a Sealed you CAN have more than 4 so rulings on cards need to affect all styles of play and tournament structures unless ur asking them to build a whole different compendium based around rules just for Constructed then a whole other set for rules pertaining to Sealed and Booster
DukeFireBird
Gallery Administrator<br>Forum Moderator
the point of the matter should be, does a game action take place?
Searching your deck is a game action, even knowing it will fail.
I can play a great ball and have no basics in my deck. Then immediately after my opponent cuts my deck, I can play another one because a game action is taking place. (Note that the 2nd one will get a judge's eyes to watch you for possible stalling).
Contents of the discard pile are public knowledge, so cards like TSD and Night Maintenance can fail if the basic requirement is not met, ie having 1 pokemon/basic energy in discard pile.
Eevee is the same way. You do a game action, searching your deck, even though both players know it will fail. completely legal. Now if your bench is full, you cannot use a CFF attack because of the 2nd clause, put it on your bench. Because you cannot place it on your bench, the attack will NULL and a rewind will occur. Now I am in no way saying that this is right to do, but IMO, if I had 4 eevee out of my deck, and I used CFF, I would just do a quick thumb through and shuffle, as I really only wanted to shuffle my deck in the first place.
RULE OF THUMB
Just because the players know the action can/will fail, the game does not.
~Duke
Searching your deck is a game action, even knowing it will fail.
I can play a great ball and have no basics in my deck. Then immediately after my opponent cuts my deck, I can play another one because a game action is taking place. (Note that the 2nd one will get a judge's eyes to watch you for possible stalling).
Contents of the discard pile are public knowledge, so cards like TSD and Night Maintenance can fail if the basic requirement is not met, ie having 1 pokemon/basic energy in discard pile.
Eevee is the same way. You do a game action, searching your deck, even though both players know it will fail. completely legal. Now if your bench is full, you cannot use a CFF attack because of the 2nd clause, put it on your bench. Because you cannot place it on your bench, the attack will NULL and a rewind will occur. Now I am in no way saying that this is right to do, but IMO, if I had 4 eevee out of my deck, and I used CFF, I would just do a quick thumb through and shuffle, as I really only wanted to shuffle my deck in the first place.
RULE OF THUMB
Just because the players know the action can/will fail, the game does not.
~Duke
Actually, several of the rulings made in the same bunch (not to mention many others already on the books) directly contradict this statement.
Chairman Kaga
Active Member
No, you think they contradict. Big difference.
Please show what you think is contradicting the rules on public vs. private information.
Please show what you think is contradicting the rules on public vs. private information.
JandPDS
New Member
I am sorry you can actually use Evees "call for Family attack" when all 4 evees are in your discard pile. Using our current constructed format.
And I am sure I am not the only one who knows how to do it.
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yoyofsho16
New Member
Mew*, Smeargle!!
GOOD POINT. This thread has been won.
That is exactly why you can use it even if it is public knowledge that all 4 are discarded. You could be using your OPPONENT's Eevee attack.
And if your opponent can use YOUR attack (considering they might have an Eevee in their deck, or they might not), you would have to be able to use it as well.
JandPDS
New Member
Personally I was thinking about Alakazam * (Discard an evee from your hand when there were previouly 3 evees in the discard pile already), but yea your points are right on, that is why the rule is correct and should stand.
Remember they can change rules whenever they choose to. Remember when Fossils did not conut for prizes, then some jokers started playing Stall decks and guess what. Fossils now count for prizes!!!
I was asserting that the "rule of thumb" is false, which it definitely is. For example:
DukeFireBird was making a broader assumption-that searching your deck is always in and of itself a sufficient reason for carring out an action, while the ruling above clearly indicates it is not.
in that case, the action would be allowed. However, this is clearly not what the was asked in the original question.
In both cases, the contents of the deck are being deduced, albeit by different mechanics. I still have yet to see anyone reason as to why deducing the contents of the deck via information in play/discard is different from deducing the contents of the deck via the existance or nonexistance of cards. It should be noted that in both cases integral game rules are used to disprove the possiblity of success.
You have asked what rulings would be overturned. There are two possiblities: Either the one ruling listed at the start of this thread or every ruling that uses game rules to disqualify a deck search. I will not bother to list the latter.
TrainerJL
New Member
I think there is an inconsistancy in this ruling. As others have pointed out, you can't use Rare Candy on a pokemon that can't evolve. By the same token, if all 4 eevee are visible (in play or in the discard), then the contents of the deck are irrelevant - by rule, there can't be one in the deck, so you shouldn't be able to do it.
However, since that's the rule for now, we'll grit our teeth and go with it.
One last note, though. There are only three reasons to use Call for Family when all 4 eevees are in play/discarded.
1) To check the deck contents to see what's left.
2) The shuffle the deck (after Cosmic Power, for example).
3) To stall.
If you Call for Family with all 4 eevees visible, don't be surprised if the judge penalizes you for stalling. :wink:
However, since that's the rule for now, we'll grit our teeth and go with it.
One last note, though. There are only three reasons to use Call for Family when all 4 eevees are in play/discarded.
1) To check the deck contents to see what's left.
2) The shuffle the deck (after Cosmic Power, for example).
3) To stall.
If you Call for Family with all 4 eevees visible, don't be surprised if the judge penalizes you for stalling. :wink:
MimeMimeMime
New Member
Rare Candy
"Choose one of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)"
You can't use Rare Candy to evolve a Basic Pokemon that has no evolution line (exmp. Darkrai) because it would be impossible for you to meet the conditions required to play rare candy, i.e. you can not posssibly have a card that evolves from it in your hand. Similar to how you can not make an attack if you can not meet an energy requirement.
What does this example have to do with a question about what the game knows about the contents of the deck or discard pile?
"Choose one of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)"
You can't use Rare Candy to evolve a Basic Pokemon that has no evolution line (exmp. Darkrai) because it would be impossible for you to meet the conditions required to play rare candy, i.e. you can not posssibly have a card that evolves from it in your hand. Similar to how you can not make an attack if you can not meet an energy requirement.
What does this example have to do with a question about what the game knows about the contents of the deck or discard pile?
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
Evolution lines seem to be an exception. The game is aware of what evolves into what. Satisfied?yoshi1001 said:
yoyofsho16
New Member
Yeah, I have always marveled at how the game figures out the Pokemon that fits in between the Basic and Stage 2.
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I just seriously don't understand why this ruling is angering people.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
I just seriously don't understand why this ruling is angering people.
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