Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Pump up smash? How will it be ruled

So just to be clear, the judging staff have discussed this and come to their official conclusion. That conclusion is that a player must do as much as s/he can of the effect of Pump Up Smash.

Just to be clear, this is NOT true. This is not a decision made by Judging staff, or Team Compendium, or even TPCi. This is the ruling that has come from PCL (is it still called PCL? Eh, different topic, same point) in Japan on how the card is to be played. Saying this is a conclusion reached by Judges' discussion implies it's open to interpretation and we have settled on this interpretation, which is not the case.
 
I edited my initial post. I wasn't sure how best to refer to "them", that is those officially in charge of the rules. How I phrased it made it sound like it was just a group of judges and not including official staff at TPC in Japan.

How we handle it in OP is settled. The issue itself is far from it.
 
If you were wondering what the alternate discussion was that I mentioned in the dialogue:
Had player B not committed to using Pump Up Smash and asked how does Pump Up Smash work:
<Me> If you haven't used the attack yet I can't help you resolve it until you have committed to using the attack. Please keep in mind that when you use an attack you do as much of the attack's effect as you can.
Truthfully, I think context is extremely important in this situation. As has been discussed in this thread, there are many different ways that judges have handled this situation. If he's asking about the procedure that will take place after the attack is used, then I think it's within his rights to know that his judge will not make him show his hand to his opponent.
 
How we handle it in OP is settled. The issue itself is far from it.

You continue to imply this is an opinion or interpretation of the card. The people who make the cards aren't handed Terrakion EX magically out of thin air and then try to decide how to play it, they designed it to be played in the manner this ruling makes clear. I'm not going to argue with your other points, however much I disagree with some of them, because I'm really just trying to make this one clear. The issue itself is fully resolved because we know how it is supposed to be played. That it is different from how you think it should be played, or how you want it to be played, does not mean the issue isn't settled. I think Eviolite should reduce the damage from Confusion, since in the Video Game a confused Pokemon bonks itself upside the head. Despite what I think would be cool and fun and make the card better than it is, doesn't mean the issue is up for debate, or is anything but settled.
 
Back at post 49 where I expressed the thought of a two prize card multiprize card penalty that was incorrect. A MPP is up to 3 prizes at the choice of the player not the judge.

The only reason I put my opinion on penalties out there is for some people the card text and saying what the card does isn't enough, and I can understand their frustration there. I also get the impression a lot of people on the forums are extremist and want to know what the maximum penalty could be on something, so I figure why not let them know. Yup I've been a bit of a judge and professor in the last two years, and this year I've decided to go heavier into the judging role rather than the playing role, so I figure I have my things to learn. I won't go back and erase my opinion on penalties, but I will not be quick to give them out in the future.
 
Otaku,

I don't agree with you at all that how we handle this issue at events is settled.

My judging staff will get together, as will Mr. Raichu's and any other staff around the country that is thinking about this before their event and make a game plan for the card, and how it will be handled.

This is how we dealt with Pokegear/Random Receiver, and how we will deal with the cards in the future.

Once the US "Ask the Masters" or "Judge Team" has a chance to review this card, and how it plays in competitive events sufficiently, I don't think you will get a definitive "this is what we are going to do" post.

I say this, and as SURE as SHOOTING, I am sure someone has posted in the ATM or Judge Team forums on how we are handling this.

Vince
 
You continue to imply this is an opinion or interpretation of the card. The people who make the cards aren't handed Terrakion EX magically out of thin air and then try to decide how to play it, they designed it to be played in the manner this ruling makes clear.

And they are infallible beings? No, they make mistakes like any other human. Their decision does call upon their experience and knowledge, which is obviously much greater than mine. At the same time, it hasn't resulted in a perfect run for the Pokémon Trading Card Game, so there is room for error. When something they say works best doesn't work best when I test it, they can be wrong. That doesn't prove me right either, of course.


I'm not going to argue with your other points, however much I disagree with some of them, because I'm really just trying to make this one clear.

I disagree with a ruling. I realize that the ruling is coming from the highest sources within... a children's card game. When I play in an official setting, the ruling will be followed. When I play in a casual setting, even if I wanted to follow the ruling, there will be no judge to call over. As such, before I play I will settle the issue with my friends.

Since I personally have overlooked a card in hand (such as missing a Basic Pokemon and erroneously declaring a mulligan), and my friends are also not perfect, some means of verification is desired if not needed. I do not expect my friends or I to cheat, but don't naively think none of us ever will; human nature is human nature. It is almost inevitable that one of us will one day cave into temptation and cheat. After all, we still cut and/or shuffle each others' decks.

I also realize the ruling is made by people, and is not some physical law or metaphysical certitude. It isn't like if I am playing a friend, and Pump Up Smash is used without Energy in hand, that player will physically be unable to reveal his or her hand to assure the other player that there is indeed no Energy. There isn't some divine revelation that guarantees this is the correct and just method of dealing with the issue.

To make me a satisfied customer "they" need to actually explain the ruling and why it is best. They have the freedom to explain it or to ignore me. The decision they give sounds like one of the worst ones. I can see issuing an errata for the card, I can see even ruling that a player must simply trust his or her opponent (no calling the judge over). Obviously I can see the player who is using Pump Up Smash and cannot play the full two Energy being required to show his or her hand.

The issue itself is fully resolved because we know how it is supposed to be played. That it is different from how you think it should be played, or how you want it to be played, does not mean the issue isn't settled.

Seems like you're playing with semantics here. I already stated how I shall handle it in an organized play environment. When there is a rule with a children's card game I don't like, I am more than willing to discuss it with others, and to even address the game's developer (or whomever has the appropriate authority to alter the game). That isn't especially "settled".

I think Eviolite should reduce the damage from Confusion, since in the Video Game a confused Pokemon bonks itself upside the head. Despite what I think would be cool and fun and make the card better than it is, doesn't mean the issue is up for debate, or is anything but settled.

Here you are throwing up a distraction, but it provides me an excellent venue for discussing several points. For example, when does the need to emulate the VGC trump the needs of creating a successful TCG? How does TPC define "success" for the TCG?

Considering the original effect of Confusion was that the Pokémon actually was considered to have attacked itself for 20 points of damage, which could then be altered by other effects, Eviolite would have blocked Confusion damage had it existed before the change to the Confusion rules.

You very much could start a discussion addressing the issue of whether or not Confusion is handled correctly. I am undecided on the issue; for one thing I believe Special Conditions are also handled poorly in the TCG and would change many of those rules as well. Still, I might be willing to discuss the matter on the boards.

Now if you want Eviolite to specifically block the damage, here we have rules that have been established repeatedly over the last... how old is the game again? When did the first card show up that placed damage counters, and when was it first ruled that damage reducing effects did not stop damage counters? Changing it just for Eviolite would require an errata or else create a contradiction within the rules, a double standard.

Since I think the ruling was also wrong for Portrait, and in general (should other cards be brought up that create a similar situation), your comment on Eviolite and Confusion is a strawman.

Otaku,

I don't agree with you at all that how we handle this issue at events is settled.

My judging staff will get together, as will Mr. Raichu's and any other staff around the country that is thinking about this before their event and make a game plan for the card, and how it will be handled.

This is how we dealt with Pokegear/Random Receiver, and how we will deal with the cards in the future.

Once the US "Ask the Masters" or "Judge Team" has a chance to review this card, and how it plays in competitive events sufficiently, I don't think you will get a definitive "this is what we are going to do" post.

I say this, and as SURE as SHOOTING, I am sure someone has posted in the ATM or Judge Team forums on how we are handling this.

Vince

:confused:

Well, at least Eviolite wouldn't have protected me from the three damage counters that will be placed on my head after I finish banging it against the wall in confusion.

Is this another issue of semantics? Did I err that badly in how I posted? I was not trying to imply specific procedure was 100% established.
 
Once the US "Ask the Masters" or "Judge Team" has a chance to review this card, and how it plays in competitive events sufficiently, I don't think you will get a definitive "this is what we are going to do" post.

What are you going to do in the meantime then? Have it handled inconsistently at the discretion of judges? Or is there some temporary method that will be implemented across the board?
 
The temporary ruling has come down.

No Judge will discuss the implementation of said ruling, aside from saying that revealing one's hand will not be a part of it.
 
And they are infallible beings?

You're talking about the game designers, Creatures in Japan?
Well, yeah, actually, in Game Terms, they kinda are infallible beings.

Not to say that they don't make rulings/decisions that I don't agree with.
I mean, I was shocked when they reprinted Gust of Wind as Pokemon Catcher.

But, in game terms, if they say the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, bam, that's how it works.
 
You're talking about the game designers, Creatures in Japan?
Well, yeah, actually, in Game Terms, they kinda are infallible beings.

I have not had a good tract record with language on this thread. I double checked the definition of "infallible". When looking it up on Dictionary.com, the definition I was using came in below what it sounds like you are using:

3. not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements: an infallible principle.
1.absolutely trustworthy or sure: an infallible rule.
In game terms, sure enough Creatures in Japan is the final authority. They designed the game, they decide the rules. I guess I should have asked "Are they perfect?" I don't think so, since that means every decision I've ever disagreed with was intentional and is at their feet, including those that would otherwise be a matter of breach of trust (if you're perfect, that includes being a judge of character).

Reading the responses of some of this thread, they seem to "deify" the company. I don't consider it impossible for the company to put out a "bad" ruling; one that is technically correct in that it came from those with authority to make the decision, but which is counter to what is "right": a ruling that matches criteria like maintaining internal game consistency and logic, is easy and effective to execute, doesn't break game balance... and a few other concerns.

Now, maybe "they" don't even agree with all that I just listed, and that would be another area of disagreement. I've met writers who have made mistakes in their own works, and then been forced to decide; have some arbitrary element of "unreality", come up with a retcon to "make" it work, or simply acknowledge the mistake and correct it outright. Even though the writer was in full control of the work, as an imperfect human mistakes can happen.

Not to say that they don't make rulings/decisions that I don't agree with.
I mean, I was shocked when they reprinted Gust of Wind as Pokemon Catcher.

But, in game terms, if they say the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, bam, that's how it works.

I think this is a bit closer to what I was driving at, and apparently failing to convey. We have a ruling. It is from the highest authorities in the game of Pokemon. When I am playing in an official setting, I will abide by it. I do not have to like it. I do feel it a matter of customer service to explain the "why" behind it, but then again I think that has been a part of rulings issues in the past; the desired "outcome", the intent is known. The proper mechanics and underlying rulings to bring it about, not so much.

However, just like I am free to use my cards to play whatever game I want with my friends, or not use them at all, with a friend I can choose to either let an occurrence like a Pump Up Smash failing to attach Energy slide, or request that they show me their hand to verify it. Some will wonder how I can demand this of a friend, but we should be settling such matters before hand in general. Considering sometimes I shuffle and/or cut a friends deck, and sometimes I don't, only those even more sensitive than myself would take issue.

Likewise, I am allowed to critique a ruling, something that seems to offend certain people on this thread. This leads me to the odd situation of hoping I just was that bad at explaining myself, since I find the alternative more distasteful. As long as I follow the board rules while doing it, I don't know why I wouldn't be allowed to express disagreement with a ruling, even an official, "from the top" one.
 
It's not that you aren't allowed to disagree with it, or to express disagreement with it, or even that disagreeing with it is bad.

We're just kind of confused why you would choose to disagree with something that isn't exactly up for debate. The card ruling is the card ruling. It's confusing and unusual (in the case of Drilbur), but it's the ruling. Creatures made it, and they by definition define what the ruling is, so... what room for error is there?
 
Just a warning to those reading; this deck is going to reference another area of dispute I have with official, "from the top" rules for the game. If you don't think that appropriate to the discussion, I suggest you don't even read the post, let alone read it and post to say how off topic you think it is. Just as I will honor the rules in organized play, instead report me to the Moderators and let them take official action if it is "that wrong". Otherwise your best bet is to ignore me. :lol:

It's not that you aren't allowed to disagree with it, or to express disagreement with it, or even that disagreeing with it is bad.

We're just kind of confused why you would choose to disagree with something that isn't exactly up for debate. The card ruling is the card ruling. It's confusing and unusual (in the case of Drilbur), but it's the ruling. Creatures made it, and they by definition define what the ruling is, so... what room for error is there?

As stated, it forces a judge to be called over for what could be a pretty common situation. If a judge is unavailable, it forces a blind level of trust beyond not allowing one player to shuffle/cut after the other; it would be akin to allowing your opponent to perform coin tosses in secret and 'report' the results!

It reenforces the precedent set by the Smeargle's Portrait/Engineer's Adjustments rulings that I similarly disagreed with. In both cases, it seems that the-powers-that-be are just creating more complexity than needs to exist to address the problem.

Past precedent in card design is that if an effect alters the content of a non-public knowledge zone, something must be done to verify the effect has been followed correctly. Yes, this is almost always included in the card's text (and possibly always has; it happens a lot). If you get hit by something like Lass, you have to show your hand since if you didn't, you could keep a Trainer in hand. If you use an effect like Ultra Ball to search your deck for a Pokemon, the effect requires you show your opponent to prevent said opponent from grabbing whatever they want instead of just a Pokemon. If you use almost any effect that messes with your deck, unless it specifically states not to, you need to properly randomize your deck afterwards (that is shuffle).

Now, as stated, this is almost (or possibly is) always included in the card's actual text... but it really shouldn't have to be. A lot of these are so common they should be metarules, if not listed in the actual basic rules. Then we come to some of the rulings that, as alluded to earlier, exist because a specific result is desired, and something is basically "made up" to justify it. Namely, the contents of the deck being unknown.

If the appropriate people from Creatures, Inc. want to tell me that "Yes, the deck is supposed to be unknown." great, then I can tell them that they can choose to follow that up be telling me whether I am to consider them to be lying, or making an extremely bad design decision... though likely I will tell them both.

Having to reveal your deck after a failed search is time consuming. So time consuming that it makes sense to just allow such searches to fail, even though this can produce various points of "advantage" for a player. Instead of just wording all cards that search so that they are searching for "up to" the amount, or just admitting that this is why a deck search can fail, we get this bizarre logic that the deck is to be unknown.

The deck is never truly unknown; well, maybe if someone builds your deck for you, registers it for you, and thus you never saw it until you began playing! :rolleyes: Even within the context of the game, your exact deck (the deck that you draw from, as opposed to your total 60 card deck) shouldn't become "unknown" in the middle of a card effect (see Pokemon Communication).

I could go on to even some fundamental game mechanics and decisions I question, some of which can realistically be addressed in future expansions. I won't, save to give the basic example that I question the exact Video Game Type to TCG Type conversion system. I don't have all day to study that, and am not foolish enough to claim I am absolutely right that it can be done better, but I am looking into that. Something as simple as moving the "Poison" sub-type from Psychic to Darkness shows promise... and as we just saw, getting the new Dragon-Type solves many old "clashing Type" issues.

Hopefully I have successfully explained myself. While I would love to convince readers that these things have merit, I will settle for at least being understood properly before being disagreed with. :biggrin: As one last thing, this is a thread about this ruling, and it is in a discussion forum and not something like "Ask The Masters" where I would be horribly off topic doing anything but saying "Okay, so that is how it works."
 
If I came off as a bit harsh (not that that EVER happens), I'll hand you the Potion to heal that damage Otaku.

I respect your desire to get to a consensus on this point.

I completely agree with the FIRST part of your statement, but there are many other nuances to this ruling that I want to see how it plays out at an event before I declare that I know how I am going to handle all of the aspects of this card with my staff.

I agree, if you can't attach, and your opponent doesn't believe, the judge should verify.

I fear some opponents pushing the TeEX player to reveal their hand to them, and judges, somehow, somewhere, allowing this, or requiring that the hand be revealed.

This card is going to be headaches, and I am hoping that we get to a clear consensus, with a reccomended handling for every aspect of the card.

Problem is, even if we do, many judges and TOs don't read this board, or the official board, or anything outside of the e-mails sent to them by Play!Pokemon.

Vince
 
Not to say that they don't make rulings/decisions that I don't agree with.
I mean, I was shocked when they reprinted Gust of Wind as Pokemon Catcher.

It makes sense in a semantic way. "Gust of Wind" isn't an item. Same goes for "Energy Removal 2", "Pokémon Trader" "Night Maintenence" "Pokémon Breeder" etc. Calling them "Items" is simply just not correct.

They're making it much more obvious when a card is an Item, Supporter, or Stadium. What would have happened if instead of printing the new Rare Candy, they decided to reprint "Pokémon Breeder" with the "Trainer-Item" tag? Yeah, people would be able to use their old versions of cards, but it would have made no sense at all: calling the specific person on the card an "Item". People are reserved for Supporters. The instant they start mixing them together, confusion would also begin.

I personally additionally believe that they would like people to use the newest prints of cards anyway, since having "Trainer-Trainers" floating around might make it difficult for newer players to have correct judgment when playing cards like Gothitelle, NXD Zebstrika, or Sableye. Without "Item" printed on anything before BLW, there is no way to know how they would interact by just looking at the cards. There would have to be some outside knowledge given, either by a judge or a nearby player. Forcing less situations that a judge needs to be involved certainly does not seem to be a bad idea.
 
I was under the impression PokePop was questioning the introduction of an Item card that had the effect of Gust of Wind at all. After much analysis, I feel it was better than having a format dependent upon Pokemon Reversal, but that it was far from the best solution. This also is what finally made me realize that

a) Tails-fails coin flips pretty much fail as a balancing mechanic.
b) Many effects can be "balanced" in the correct format.
 
It makes sense in a semantic way. "Gust of Wind" isn't an item. Same goes for "Energy Removal 2", "Pokémon Trader" "Night Maintenence" "Pokémon Breeder" etc. Calling them "Items" is simply just not correct.
You misunderstand my point.
I wasn't surprised about the renaming. You summarize the reason for that correctly.
I was shocked at the reintroduction to the game of what had long been seen as a broken card effect.
 
Great News:
R&D has declared the Hand a "Private Zone".
The attachment of energy cards will not be enforced.
 
Great News:
R&D has declared the Hand a "Private Zone".
The attachment of energy cards will not be enforced.

YES! Thanks so much for this information! :lol: I think this was definitely the easiest way to do it, and also what the players thought was best for tournament expediency. This definitely also makes Terrakion/Terrakion EX/Garbodor a more viable deck.
 
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