Pump up smash? How will it be ruled

[tutti]

The rule is that you can't play a trainer card if The Game knows it will have no effect. That rule doesn't care if you know, or your opponent knows, or if you both know, it only cares if The Game knows. And what we just learned is that The Game doesn't know what's in your hand (unless there's nothing there) - this wasn't an exception made for PUS or even for attacks in general, this was a change in a fundamental game mechanic. If you still can't "fail a hand search", then there's a rather large unexplained contradiction here.

EDIT: Shino, you're half right - you could play the cards for no effects the way they alone are written. But there really is an actual game rule that says you can't play a Trainer card for no known effect, not counting the card's cost or the discarding of the card itself. Max Potion does not involve any unknown factors, so you can tell immediately whether playing it will have no effect. The rule does cover any choices you make - any choice you make for your card that leads to no effect is not a legal choice, which means you can't choose Carnivine for Rare Candy. What just became questionable is whether you can play Rare Candy without an applicable Stage 2 pokemon, as it would be in your hand and The Game no longer knows your hand.

 

[Shino Bug Master]

What just became questionable is whether you can play Rare Candy without an applicable Stage 2 pokemon, as it would be in your hand and The Game no longer knows your hand.

This is what i was basing my whole point off of. I understand the idea of not failing public knowledge, but thats no longer the case, so i used comparrisons of things that have always been in Public Knowledge for my arguement. I didn't make that clear i suppose, but we're both ont he same page and side here :lol: My quip about how RC had a case before the private/public knowledge swap was a bit off with the rule in affect I realize, but i was trying to emphasize how little the card actually demands you do.

Will be interesting no matter what.

 

[Tash]

The rule is that you can't play a trainer card if The Game knows it will have no effect.

Where does it say that? Despite the hand not being known to the game at large, it IS known to the player using it that the trainer card has no effect. The difference between this and a deck search is that the deck is ALWAYS unknown to both players, so it's always assumed there's a chance to pull out the card it's searching for.

On the other hand, if the trainer had a secondary effect like drawing a card, then you'd be able to fail a hand check on other parts of it.

 

[Shino Bug Master]

Where does it say that? Despite the hand not being known to the game at large, it IS known to the player using it that the trainer card has no effect. The difference between this and a deck search is that the deck is ALWAYS unknown to both players, so it's always assumed there's a chance to pull out the card it's searching for.

On the other hand, if the trainer had a secondary effect like drawing a card, then you'd be able to fail a hand check on other parts of it.

Uh, the deck is not "uknown" to you when you are holding it and looking through it. You can clearly see the Emolgas you dont feel like Level Balling for just like you can see the Garchomp in your hand you dont feel like Rare candying to. The Game has previously said the deck is private knowledge, allowing for such search failures, while the hand was previously not. It doesnt matter how long you get to look at a private zone, its still private to the game.

And there would be sevral different ruling exceptions and differences if you started adding effects to cards :thumb:

 

[Kayle]

Were I the judge I wouldn't let someone Rare Candy for no effect.

Pump-Up Smash's attachments are part of the attack, but they aren't a requirement. Having a Pokemon in your hand to evolve into qualifies as a requirement to me.

To me, "no effect" means the gamestate hasn't changed. You discarded a card and nothing happened. There was no effect.

 

[Tagrineth]

The simple answer is pokemon attack/ability effects treat the hand's contents a little differently from trainer cards.

See also: Roast Reveal vs. Rare Candy, two years ago.

 

[Otaku]

Just to give an idea, in Ask The Masters it has been ruled you can, for example, attempt to use the effect of Twist Mountain without having a Restored Pokemon in hand... but that isn't the same thing as playing a card from hand knowing it cannot work. The effect is from something already in play, so the game state does not change; you just "fail" the effect since the hand is private.

That being said, with this new ruling I don't know for cards like Rare Candy given its wording.

 

[tutti]

Where does it say that? Despite the hand not being known to the game at large, it IS known to the player using it that the trainer card has no effect. The difference between this and a deck search is that the deck is ALWAYS unknown to both players, so it's always assumed there's a chance to pull out the card it's searching for.

On the other hand, if the trainer had a secondary effect like drawing a card, then you'd be able to fail a hand check on other parts of it.

It's a game rule. Basically, what's known to "the game at large", or both or either player(s), isn't what counts - it's what's known to The Game that counts. The Game is a well-defined construct in the Pokémon TCG, so the rules are usually quite clear on what's considered "known".

Your deck is never known to The Game, except when it's empty. That is why you can fail a search of the deck - The Game doesn't know what's in there. Until recently, The Game knew your hand. It no longer does. This logically means that cards that depend on other cards being in hand are no longer "known to have no effect"*.

However, taking this to its logical conclusion right now might not be the best idea. I doubt the card designers really intended to let you play such Trainer cards for no effect simply to fix PUS.

* Except the ones that depend on the number of cards in hand. The Game still knows that.

 

[vaporeon]

Not sure if this was said or not (I was thrown in) but in regards to Portrait/ Engineer's. Discard the energy for the card is a cost to using it. Since Portrait forces you to use the supporter, you would have to prove you did not have the energy in hand. Yes the hand is not public but you happen to be forced into using the effect of Engineer. You can't fail that effect because its a cost to drawing the 4 cards.

On Pump Up Smash, attaching the energy is not a cost of the attack. I can use the attack but I don't have to attach the energy because I'm not required to do so. Again, I'm not sure how this would be ruled but there is a huge difference in cost vs effect.

 

[Otaku]

On Pump Up Smash, attaching the energy is not a cost of the attack. I can use the attack but I don't have to attach the energy because I'm not required to do so. Again, I'm not sure how this would be ruled but there is a huge difference in cost vs effect.

Have you read this thread?

 

[evil psyduck]

Already been decided on how it will be ruled.

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168051

 

[PokePop]

It's great to see a ruling on this before Battle Roads. :biggrin:

But now it brings up another question. If your hand is now a "Private Zone" and can fail Pump Up Smash, then couldn't you play Rare Candy and then fail that for the same reason?

No. You'd still be playing a Trainer for no effect.

 

[tutti]

No. You'd still be playing a Trainer for no effect.

It's "no known effect", isn't it? If it was just "no effect", then you'd be breaking the rules by flipping tails on Recycle. And if it's still "no known effect", and the hand just became unknown...?

 

[Box of Fail]

It's "no known effect", isn't it? If it was just "no effect", then you'd be breaking the rules by flipping tails on Recycle. And if it's still "no known effect", and the hand just became unknown...?

Private Zone =/= Unknown Zone. You can't play a card to no effect knowing your hand doesn't contain the required card. Like how you can't fail Engineer's Adjustments. If there were a Supporter that did the same thing as "Pump Up Smash"'s effect, you still couldn't use it unless you had BOTH energies.

"Pump Up Smash" is different because you can fail parts of an attack even if it is public knowledge they will fail. You can Extreme Attack with no Lv.X on the board, or use a gust attack like Cryogonal's Ice Chain when they have an empty bench. But you can't Level Max with no legal targets or Catcher when they have an empty effect.

You can use an attack or a Power when it is public knowledge it will have no effect. You CAN'T play a Trainer or Supporter when it is public knowledge it will have no effect.

Flipping coins circumvents this, because it's not public knowledge the card will have no effect.

 

[tutti]

If there were a supporter that did the same thing as PUS, you could play it with only one energy. Regardless of whether the hand is known, the rule is "no known effect", not "not the full effect".

Also, I'm aware this applies to Trainers only, that's why I bring up a Trainer card (Recycle). In the case of Rare Candy with no Stage 2, it isn't public knowledge that the card will have no effect.

This all comes down to the same reason you can fail deck searches - The Game doesn't know what's in the deck, even though you do, allowing you to fail the deck search. Similarly, if The Game doesn't know what's in your hand, then The Game doesn't know that the card will fail. The logical conclusion is that you can play and fail a Rare Candy.

Note that I'm not arguing that we are now able to do just that. I fully assume we aren't. I just want to know how the logic behind it works.

 

[Box of Fail]

If there were a supporter that did the same thing as PUS, you could play it with only one energy. Regardless of whether the hand is known, the rule is "no known effect", not "not the full effect".

Also, I'm aware this applies to Trainers only, that's why I bring up a Trainer card (Recycle). In the case of Rare Candy with no Stage 2, it isn't public knowledge that the card will have no effect.

This all comes down to the same reason you can fail deck searches - The Game doesn't know what's in the deck, even though you do, allowing you to fail the deck search. Similarly, if The Game doesn't know what's in your hand, then The Game doesn't know that the card will fail. The logical conclusion is that you can play and fail a Rare Candy.

Note that I'm not arguing that we are now able to do just that. I fully assume we aren't. I just want to know how the logic behind it works.

I suppose I misspoke when I said "public knowledge." The hand and the deck, though, function differently in terms of failing a card effect. What I meant was that you can't even play a Trainer when you know it will fail and the game does not, assuming you have direct access to the area you're searching. I.e., you can't play a Trainer that tells you to play a card from your hand unless you have the card in hand. PUS is different because it is an attack.

It is unreasonable for the game to expect you to keep track of what is in your deck after you search and so it doesn't. But your hand is a different matter. Even though the game doesn't know the contents of your hand and so it isn't public knowledge the effect will fail, if the player using the card has knowledge the card will fail, it's not legal to play the card.

Of course, over the course of the game you could gain the knowledge that a specific deck search is bound to fail. But the game doesn't expect you to remember a single card you saw in the deck. You are always presumed to know the contents of your hand. This is just a practical matter; the reason cards like "Engineer's Adjustments" have never been usable without energy in hand is because the player using them knows he has no energy in hand. That has always been the effective equivalent of public knowledge, even though the game doesn't actually know whether you have a card in your hand.

 

[tutti]

PUS being an attack doesn't actually make a difference for this particular problem. In fact, PUS has nothing to do with my confusion, it's the new ruling about the hand that's the issue.

Remember the Trainer rule - "you can not play a Trainer card for no known effect". The deck search fail rule shows that this does not come down to what either player knows, but what The Game knows. Even if the player knows for sure that what they're searching for is not in the deck, they can still play a card to search for it. This proves that you can play a Trainer card that you know will have no effect, as long as The Game doesn't know. And the ruling we just got was not "you can choose not to attach with Pump Up Smash". It was "Your hand is now a Private Zone". We know that this makes the attachment optional; the only way it can do that is if "Private Zone" means "unknown to The Game".

And, since the ruling we got doesn't apply to Pump Up Smash specifically, but to your hand at all times, this means The Game never knows what's in your hand, unless an effect makes it public knowledge. Going back to the Rare Candy, you know that you have no Stage 2 and the Rare Candy will have no effect. The Game doesn't. And as the deck search fail rule shows, what you know doesn't matter, only what The Game knows does.

EDIT: Sadly, it's 2 AM and I need to sleep. I'll respond tomorrow.

 

[Box of Fail]

And, since the ruling we got doesn't apply to Pump Up Smash specifically, but to your hand at all times, this means The Game never knows what's in your hand, unless an effect makes it public knowledge. Going back to the Rare Candy, you know that you have no Stage 2 and the Rare Candy will have no effect. The Game doesn't. And as the deck search fail rule shows, what you know doesn't matter, only what The Game knows does.

EDIT: Sadly, it's 2 AM and I need to sleep. I'll respond tomorrow.

I think there is still a fundamental difference between hand and deck. I think it's also not correct to say "what you know doesn't matter, only what The Game knows does." The deck search fail rule allows you to play cards that will fail because at the time of your playing them, you don't have immediate access to the contents of your deck. Once you access your deck, you can verify that there is no legal target.

This is fundamentally different from failing a hand "search," if you might call it that. You can't play a card that you can determine will have no effect at the time of your playing it, even if the game has no knowledge of that fact. The game does not know what is in your hand; however, in this case it is actually what you know that is pertinent. Right before a deck search, you don't have access to your deck, so you don't know whether there is a legal target in deck (whether you actually do know is irrelevant, as the game doesn't require you to keep track of the contents of your deck after you finish searching it). Thus, you can proceed with a deck search card only to subsequently find that there is no target.

Right before a "hand search," you are presumed by the game to be fully aware of the contents of your hand, as you always know what is in there. Thus, you can be expected by the game to know that you are playing a card to no effect. As with Engineer's, the knowledge of the player using the card is sufficient to invalidate playing a card to no effect, even if the game actually isn't aware of the contents of the hand. Because you are simultaneously "searching your hand" as you play the card, you cannot fail a search of the hand and count that as an effect. You do not search the deck until the card has been played, at which point searching the deck is sufficient effect to justify the playing of the card.

 

[Tash]

Remember the Trainer rule - "you can not play a Trainer card for no known effect". The deck search fail rule shows that this does not come down to what either player knows, but what The Game knows. Even if the player knows for sure that what they're searching for is not in the deck, they can still play a card to search for it. This proves that you can play a Trainer card that you know will have no effect, as long as The Game doesn't know. And the ruling we just got was not "you can choose not to attach with Pump Up Smash". It was "Your hand is now a Private Zone". We know that this makes the attachment optional; the only way it can do that is if "Private Zone" means "unknown to The Game".

You're overlooking one major fact: A failed deck search DOES change the game state. "Shuffle your deck afterwards" is still doing something (hell, there's a trainer card that does nothing but that), along with giving you extra knowledge of the contents of your deck. A failed search of your own hand does nothing. It doesn't change the game state and neither player gets an additional information from it. It just does nothing, so it can't be played.

 

[tutti]

The deck search fail rule isn't that you can play cards that will fail a deck search, it's the one that allows you to fail a deck search even while looking at your deck and seeing valid targets.

I don't believe shuffling your deck is considered an effect. IIRC, the card that does nothing but that was made an exception. Simply giving one player more knowledge isn't an effect either, since that in itself makes no physical changes to the game, and can't be quantified anyway.