@SMP88 - I see your point, but keep in mind the what it took the player to earn those byes in the first place. regionals is looking at 8 rounds, top 32. so 6-2 in swiss (very rarely 5-3), + t32, t16, t8, t4, t2. that means they had to go 11-2 at regionals to win (5 of those being match play). That's really difficult, and a testament to that player's skill. I understand that going 4-3 at nats isn't that great in and of itself, but I still feel like that doesn't discount the hardships they had to go through to win regionals. To be honest though, once you're 6-3 it becomes a factor of luck + when you lost your games. I just personally think the guy who made it through 13 rounds (5 being swiss), probably is a bit more deserving than the guy who made it through the initial 2 at nats. Once again, regionals is a rare high level event, the rewards should give be very exclusive.
Removing Bye Rewards @ U.S. Nationals
- Thread starter Ness
- Start date
- Status
I'm not diminishing the play of a regionals winner. Like you said, someone who wins a regionals has to play incredibly well all day, and they should be rewarded handsomely.Unique cards, many packs, travel stipend to nats, a trophy or medal? All great rewards for a regionals winner. What isn't great is giving someone an advantage in a tournament based on their play in a separate one.
Saying a regionals winner is more deserving of a top cut spot than a person who had played all their rounds diminishes the relatively strong play of the person who actually played all 9 rounds. Nobody is more deserving than another player when it comes to any individual tournament. If that were the case why even bother playing swiss? We know who the top 40 are before nats starts, why not just have those 40 be in top cut, I would say they're more deserving than a person who hasn't played all season except for nats. What if you had a player that won every BR and States they went to but couldn't make it to regionals for any number of reasons, would they be less deserving?
Saying a regionals winner is more deserving of a top cut spot than a person who had played all their rounds diminishes the relatively strong play of the person who actually played all 9 rounds. Nobody is more deserving than another player when it comes to any individual tournament. If that were the case why even bother playing swiss? We know who the top 40 are before nats starts, why not just have those 40 be in top cut, I would say they're more deserving than a person who hasn't played all season except for nats. What if you had a player that won every BR and States they went to but couldn't make it to regionals for any number of reasons, would they be less deserving?
The problem with comparing the regionals/nationals relationship to other tournaments is that they vary so much in size in and skill level. Even states has to much variation to be counted for byes in my opinion. Winning BR's, and cities is definitely an achievement, but it's just not a comparison to the skill level that's brought to regionals, especially with the upcoming change in schedule.
Keep in mind, the other player is also only playing 2 more rounds than the regionals winner. The regionals winner played an extra 13 to get those byes. If the 6-3 random player couldn't make regionals, then that's unfortunate, but Pokemon is a game that favors people who can attend more events (and I don't have a problem with that). I understand where you're coming from, but I think Pokemon wants to encourage more regional winners to be in top cut.
Think about it, the minute you win a regionals you can be considered a big player. Maybe not the best in the world, but at the very least above average. There's only a few of you every year, and you definitely do show up at nats as one of the people to beat. For that reason alone I think the byes are fine. Probably not for 2nd place even, and definitely not for states, but the winners should have an advantage over nationals. They already proved they have what it takes to be top cut material at nats, as for everyone else we have to prove it.
The other thing too, is that once you go 6-3 you're putting your chance of getting into top cut up in the air. I understand anyone can have a bad day, a bad match-up, or just get unlucky, but ultimately when you show up at a nationals you need to go in the attitude that you're 7-2 or missing cut. I know this may seem kind of harsh, and I'm not saying going 6-3 means you are a bad player, or anything of the like, but once you're 6-3 a good portion of the odds are based on luck (even a great player can lose to someone like Pooka on round 1).
Finally, once the regional winners make it to top cut, it's top 128. At US nats, even just making top cut is tough, but if they really aren't good they won't go very deep. I know this isn't going to be much consolation to those who don't make cut, but I feel like those who have proven themselves deserve a shot at top cut. With regionals not providing anything other than rating points when looking towards worlds, I really feel like this is the best way to push a regional winner towards that world invite, which is ultimately what you're after. So giving them a bit of a bump to top cut, is simply pokemon's way of saying "you won regionals, you deserve a better shot at making it to worlds." For that reason alone, I don't really see any problems with handing out a double bye to the winner of each regionals. (If it's only to the winner do you know how few people that's going to be anyways?)
Keep in mind, the other player is also only playing 2 more rounds than the regionals winner. The regionals winner played an extra 13 to get those byes. If the 6-3 random player couldn't make regionals, then that's unfortunate, but Pokemon is a game that favors people who can attend more events (and I don't have a problem with that). I understand where you're coming from, but I think Pokemon wants to encourage more regional winners to be in top cut.
Think about it, the minute you win a regionals you can be considered a big player. Maybe not the best in the world, but at the very least above average. There's only a few of you every year, and you definitely do show up at nats as one of the people to beat. For that reason alone I think the byes are fine. Probably not for 2nd place even, and definitely not for states, but the winners should have an advantage over nationals. They already proved they have what it takes to be top cut material at nats, as for everyone else we have to prove it.
The other thing too, is that once you go 6-3 you're putting your chance of getting into top cut up in the air. I understand anyone can have a bad day, a bad match-up, or just get unlucky, but ultimately when you show up at a nationals you need to go in the attitude that you're 7-2 or missing cut. I know this may seem kind of harsh, and I'm not saying going 6-3 means you are a bad player, or anything of the like, but once you're 6-3 a good portion of the odds are based on luck (even a great player can lose to someone like Pooka on round 1).
Finally, once the regional winners make it to top cut, it's top 128. At US nats, even just making top cut is tough, but if they really aren't good they won't go very deep. I know this isn't going to be much consolation to those who don't make cut, but I feel like those who have proven themselves deserve a shot at top cut. With regionals not providing anything other than rating points when looking towards worlds, I really feel like this is the best way to push a regional winner towards that world invite, which is ultimately what you're after. So giving them a bit of a bump to top cut, is simply pokemon's way of saying "you won regionals, you deserve a better shot at making it to worlds." For that reason alone, I don't really see any problems with handing out a double bye to the winner of each regionals. (If it's only to the winner do you know how few people that's going to be anyways?)
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
2 rounds in a 9 round tournament is a lot. It shouldn't matter how many rounds a regional winner won, it's a completely different tournament. If regional winners want to make top cut they should win enough rounds, just like everyone else. If Pokemon wants their regional winners to be in top cut they should just given them a spot in nationals top cut, I mean, they've already proven themselves as a great player, why make them go through swiss? They could get donked or have a bad hand.
Instead of byes, why not just give the regionals winner an invite to worlds? You can even give top 2 invites. They can still get the cards, medal, stipend to nats, etc., but include a worlds invite. It would help so that some people wouldn't have to worry about their points at nationals and they would still get a stipend, so they would still come to nats and play. Increase the number of invites from rankings to top 50-60 (since you'll be giving out 12-24 invites from regionals and at least some of those players will overlap) and I think everything will be fine. Regionals winners still get a good prize package, more people would be playing at nationals since they wouldn't be worrying about ratings and everyone is on an equal footing when nationals starts.
2 rounds in a 9 round tournament is a lot. It shouldn't matter how many rounds a regional winner won, it's a completely different tournament. If regional winners want to make top cut they should win enough rounds, just like everyone else. If Pokemon wants their regional winners to be in top cut they should just given them a spot in nationals top cut, I mean, they've already proven themselves as a great player, why make them go through swiss? They could get donked or have a bad hand.
Instead of byes, why not just give the regionals winner an invite to worlds? You can even give top 2 invites. They can still get the cards, medal, stipend to nats, etc., but include a worlds invite. It would help so that some people wouldn't have to worry about their points at nationals and they would still get a stipend, so they would still come to nats and play. Increase the number of invites from rankings to top 50-60 (since you'll be giving out 12-24 invites from regionals and at least some of those players will overlap) and I think everything will be fine. Regionals winners still get a good prize package, more people would be playing at nationals since they wouldn't be worrying about ratings and everyone is on an equal footing when nationals starts.
This I can agree with, definitely like the idea of regionals winners getting an invite. Especially considering allot of our regionals are bigger than some nationals. I highly doubt that'll ever happen though. =(
King Piplup
Active Member
We could get invites, (Honestly, I think we will) but as far as increasing the number of rating invites, if they kept it the way they have and added regionals invites, right now its Top 40 no Passdowns. Now, I would love Regional Invites with T40 and Passdowns. I know some people are strictly against Passdowns, but I think it could work.
~Piplup
P.S.
To head this off, since this seems to be a "Hot" topic-
We're going to have to agree to disagree, Thanks.
~Piplup
P.S.
To head this off, since this seems to be a "Hot" topic-
Those who are going to disagree with me said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree, Thanks.
- Status