Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

rullings for combination of card-question

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calvin_0

New Member
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Name: Windstorm
Effect:
Choose up to 2 in any combination of Pokemon Tools card and Stadium card in play (both yours and your opponent's) and discard them

I want to know why this card is able to use without any stadium in play since its clearly stats that "any combination of Pokemon Tools and Stadium"

as my understanding, 2 differ Pokemon Tools is not a combination according to windstorm effect.

only a Pokemon Tools and a Stadium consider as combination.

but if the wind storm effect is written in such

"Choose up to 2 in any combination of Pokemon Tools card or Stadium card in play (both yours and your opponent's) and discard them

then we can use them without any stadium in play.
 
Choose up to 2
Click to expand...

u can choose either 0,1,2

it doesnt matter how the sentence is made after the "choose up to 2" .Once u see "choose up to X no." u can use the card even though the object isnt in play
 
Well, you can't choose zero. Playing the Trainer has to have some effect.


There is no issue with the "and".
In this usage, it is flexible whether one uses "and" or "or" to indicate the range of choices. The rest of the sentence ("any combination") clarifies the choices.
 
yes i know that, but even it clarifies the choices, but don't "and" make it must have the other? in the other words no choices?

the choose up 2 stats that i can choose

0 Pokemon Tools and Stadium
1 Pokemon Tools and Stadium
2 Pokemon Tools and Stadium

well if its a "or" i can choose

0 Pokemon Tools
1 Pokemon Tools
2 Pokemon Tools
0 Stadium
1 Stadium
2 Stadiums

"or" as in my understanding is a choice, either this or that....on the other hand, "and" is mean both, there is no choice.

unless you mean both "and" and "or" in TCG mean the same things.......
 
From the other angle "or" implies one type or the other--it's an exclusive term. That is not what the card intends. So "and" is used since it's an inclusive term. "Either/or....in any combination" would be way too confusing so they opted for the simple "and". Don't forget Pop's important point--you can't play a trainer for no effect whatsover, so you can't choose zero tools and zero stadiums (or is it stadia?? :confused: )
 
calvin_0 said:
"or" as in my understanding is a choice, either this or that....on the other hand, "and" is mean both, there is no choice.

unless you mean both "and" and "or" in TCG mean the same things.......
Click to expand...

In the TCG the "and" and "or" qualifiers do mean different things. Take a look at Holon Farmer:

Holon Farmer: Search your discard pile for 3 basic Energy cards AND any combination of 3 Basic Pokémon or Evolution cards, show them to your opponent, and put them on top of your deck. Shuffle your deck afterward.

If the word "or" was used, you could only shuffle in (up to) 3 cards. Since "and" was used you can shuffle in (up to) 6: 3 pokemon and 3 energies.

It turns out that with Windstorm, the placement of the quailfier "in any combination of" makes the "and" work. And I think that the phrase also makes the "or" work. I don't see any difference between the meaning of the current text:

Windstorm: Choose up to 2 in any combination of Pokémon Tool cards AND Stadium cards in play (both yours and your opponent's) and discard them.

And the text with the word or:

Windstorm: Choose up to 2 in any combination of Pokémon Tool cards OR Stadium cards in play (both yours and your opponent's) and discard them.
 
But i still don't see how we are able to make Windstorm works without any stadium in play.

pokeMATHter, I agree to you Holon Farmer example. But you can't use Farmer without any Basic energy in your discard pile since its require you to choose at least 1 Basic energy

why can't we apply the same logic to windstorm?

the word "up to 2 any combination" is not confusing at all....it just backup the "and" requirement.

example of combination:

1 Energy Root and 1 Holon Ruin
1 Energy Root and 1 Holon Ruin plus 1 Buffer Piece and 1 Holon Ruin (the same holon ruin)

totoro, thanks for reminding me....
 
calvin_0 said:
But i still don't see how we are able to make Windstorm works without any stadium in play.

pokeMATHter, I agree to you Holon Farmer example. But you can't use Farmer without any Basic energy in your discard pile since its require you to choose at least 1 Basic energy

why can't we apply the same logic to windstorm?

the word "up to 2 any combination" is not confusing at all....it just backup the "and" requirement.

example of combination:

1 Energy Root and 1 Holon Ruin
1 Energy Root and 1 Holon Ruin plus 1 Buffer Piece and 1 Holon Ruin (the same holon ruin)

totoro, thanks for reminding me....
Click to expand...
You're thinking too hard and making too many wrong assumptions.
First, you CAN use Holon Farmer without any Basic Energy. You do as much as you can. You do have to take at least one card, but it can be a Pokemon.

In your Windstorm example, you are choosing three. You can't choose three. You can only choose two.
 
no, I'm choosing 2.

you see, 1 pokemon tools and 1 stadium = 1 combination, so I choose 2 pokemon tools and 1 stadium = 2 combinations (since i there can't be more then on stadium in play, i have to choose back the same stadium)
 
Moot means arguing about something with no chance of changing it, just for the sake of arguing.
Which is why I am done with this.
 
calvin_0 said:
no, I'm choosing 2.

you see, 1 pokemon tools and 1 stadium = 1 combination, so I choose 2 pokemon tools and 1 stadium = 2 combinations (since i there can't be more then on stadium in play, i have to choose back the same stadium)
Click to expand...

The 2 is referring to two cards, not two combinations. You can discard either 1 card or two cards. those cards can be stadium or tool cards.
 
oh...i see.....

well why they put it as "up to 2 in any combination"...its much easier if they put "and/or"

anyway thanks for clearing this up.
 
wow for a professor you are making some horrible rulings... "you need at least 1 basic energy in the discard for holon farmer..." if that was the case raieggs couldnt use it because many lists run all special energy.... but it says "up to 2 in any combination"... meaning any combanation involving stadiums and tools with max discard being 2 cards....so you can discard 1 stadium/ or 2 stadiums /or 1stadium and 1 too/l or 2 tools /or 1 tool. those are all the possible combinations of tools and syadiums that the card was refering to.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that calvin might not have a full grasp of the English language right now, seeing as how he's in Malaysia. As such, he could be misinterpreting what we're saying.
 
well my understanding of english is fine, its just the way they put it confuse me......it wasn;t so confusing if they put it

"Choose up to 2 Pokemon Tools card and/or Stadium card in play (both yours and your opponent's) and discard them"

then only i understand you can only discard up to 2 card. puting "combination" and "and" together make me think that I have choose a stadium as a requirement.
 
PokePop said:
First, you CAN use Holon Farmer without any Basic Energy. You do as much as you can. You do have to take at least one card, but it can be a Pokemon.
Click to expand...

Okay... now this is throwing me off. I always thought that if you do not have at least 3 energy and 3 pokemon in your discard pile that you cannot use the Farmer since it does not have the phrase "up to" printed on it. Is there any explaination on how it is possible to play even if it doesn't meet all requirments?
 
The explanation is that you do all that you can do, but you must do something at a minimum. Getting one card with Farmer is acceptible, if you only have one card that fits the requirement.

This rule was corrected at 2005 Worlds when we were able to discuss it directly with PCL and later officially confirmed.
 
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