Sideboard?

[bullados]

This is an impossible argument.

It comes down to beliefs.

You believe that sideboards are good for the game. You have no evidence to support this belief within the Pokemon community.

We believe that sideboards are bad for the game. We have no evidence to support this belief within the Pokemon community.

All either one of us could come up with are hypotheticals.

As a League Leader, Judge, and Organizer, as well as a part time player, I support ways to both increase the level of competition AND decrease the amount of work on the Judging staff.

I believe that a sideboard would put too much strain on an already strained Judging staff.

I currently run 27 person Battle Roads with 3 Judges including myself. It's a tough but very fun day. My feet are constantly sore, and that's after working out 4-6 days a week. That's without sideboards. My Judges are good, and I've Judged Nationals before. I don't feel it's worth my Judge's time and effort to look over sideboards during matches when they could instead be ensuring that the actual gameplay is proceeding properly.

I believe that Nationals, a 1200 person tournament, was run with about 40 Judges. At least one has posted that he was strained at the end of day 1.

I could only imagine the strain placed on a Judging staff if they had to check sideboards for 1200+ people at the beginning of each round.

From a Judging perspective, sideboards bring unnecessary complexity to a surprisingly simple game.

From a playing perspective, I'd rather have my Judges focusing on my matches rather than my deck.

I say "no" to sideboards for the reasons above.

This will be my last post on the subject. As the great sage Kevin Smith once wrote in the 1999 film Dogma...

Rufus: He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.

This is an argument about beliefs. I have posted my belief, and it's not going to change based on what's being said here. I doubt anybody else's beliefs in this thread will change either. It's good discussion, but it's just going to go in circles.

 

[rokman]

You believe that sideboards are good for the game. You have no evidence to support this belief within the Pokemon community.

We believe that sideboards are bad for the game. We have no evidence to support this belief within the Pokemon community.

All either one of us could come up with are hypotheticals.

So let's try this in a decent sized tournament (prof cup) and then everyone can share their opinion!:thumb:

Oh, I'm not even playing in that, so thats 1 less person to think it's right for pokemon!

 

[MrMeches]

Sideboard issues have difficulty in Pokemon due to Card restrictions of 4. As you mentioned yourself, Pokemon has more "Drama" than most TCG and unfortunately cheating is prevalent in every tournament.

It is a novel idea, however it does hurt the initial integrity of the game. Not saying it wouldn't be interesting, but deck building is an art and the side board, IMHO, removes from that art.

Let's keep this discussion constructive though and not start throwing names around now Boys. Everyone has a right to their opinion and it can be done wihtout slinging mud!

Fish

 

[Tagrineth]

If Pokemon gets a sideboard, it'd better not be more than 4 cards. 4 cards is quite seriously enough for this card game with all the draw/search effects. You could add two or three different basic techs, or one 2-2 stage 1 line. You could be daring and side a 2-0-2 stage 1 line in a Rare Candy reliant deck, or a 1-0-1 and two Rare Candy.

Even 5 cards would mean 1-1-1 or 2-1-2 lines could be sideboarded, which would be way too good. Or even a 1-0-1 and three Rare Candy, if you're running Azelf LA it'd work just as well. Sideboard 1-0-1 Queen and 3 Candy... ugh

4 cards wouldn't be able to (reliably) transform a deck to a whole new purpose.

I would support a 4 card sideboard.

edit: but having said that, I *like* this game's unique aspect of having to plan your 60 cards around matchups and having to make sacrifices to do it. I strongly support TESTING a 4 card sideboard in the Professor Cup before anything else.

 

[MetaMetaGross]

Though a side board would be interesting. I would add complexities to a pretty streight forward game. Getting juniors, and maybe some seniors to understand this would be a challange. Also, if we do best 2 out of 3 in swiss, it would increase the time needed to run the tourney, Ive heard to many "war stories" about tourneys that had to finish in a library or a fast food place because of original venue had to close. Plus, how as a judge would you arrange the changing of cards via the sideboard.

on another note, remember that MTG has a totally different play structer. Granted I havent played since version 5 it is vastly different then pokemon. Not so many cards depend on other cards outside of mana. If a monster dies, you dont have to discard "energy" there is no evolving and your tring to reduce a "player" to 0 live rather then draw prizes. A format like this, sideboarding might benifit. Ex you notice that you have 3 monsters with a certian ability that doesnt work very well against your opponet, but a other ability does. In pokemon, If your playing fighting and he is playing electric, your running into a problem you might have to change your whole deck strat for to win. Ex if your deck is heavy on poke powers and your opponet plays a deck that doesnt allow for the use of pokepowers. If your deck revolves around using those powers, your hosed unless you switch the entire lines.



Just my 2 and a half cents.

 

[Squidwina]

I think a sideboard incorporated into pokemon would actually save the game...

Save the game from what?

 

[dobsonr]

I think the sideboard concept would not make Pokemon a better game. Even a small sideboard (3-5) would be enough to hold 2 different techs in addition to the one in the original list. Pokemon is all about search and draw, so those techs come into play quite easily. This means you no longer have to worry about matchups very much. It would boil down to everyone using the single fastest, strongest, most consistent deck. What makes the current metagame so good is that you can't build a deck to cover every match-up. Many decks are viable in such a state, which is healthy for any game.

If you state sideboards allow for more skill versus restricting a deck to just 60 cards to win a whole tournament I'd have to say the statement is hypocritical. The most skilled players find ways to win those tough matchups by altering thier play strategy and evaluating gain/loss and risk scenarios on the long term. They also know its just as much about what choices the opponent makes and what they draw.

I also want to bring attention to the source material. When you face the elite four, you are not allowed to go to the pokemon center and change 2 of your team members in preparation for the Elite four member that focuses on psychic and field manipulation. You need a team that is flexible and strong enough to get through any obstacle. This game is about making hard choices when deck building, and sticking by those choices to the end. Win or Lose.

I remember when Sideboarding was added to the original Star Wars CCG. It killed off close to half the meta game because strategies were easily countered.

I've played Magic with sideboards, its not healthy in the 60 card format. It works in a format with no card limit. In fact I will use your own example against you. You pointed to that fairie deck and its side board. The sideboard contains several copies of a card that has a very limited use. For the cost of 1 black mana it destroys a White or Green creature. Very effective, yet severely limited in scope. By removing the risk factor associated with always having a card so powerful in the right situation, Im willing to bet Green and White creatures are not widely played in the format. The top decks in that meta are 4 color decks that are extremely flexible, and the black/ blue fairie combination as you pointed out. That doesn't seem like a rich and diverse metagame to me.

I have played Yu-Gi-Oh with a side board. YGO is a very diffent kind of game, and again, a game without a card count limit on the deck. Techs are powerful in YGO, but harder to access because there is not many search mechanics. Also, contrary to Pokemon, a deck can win by means other than monsters battling. Many spells and traps deal damage and win games without a single monster needed to hit the field. Pokemon win pokemon battles. And because of the inherent power of type matching a sideboard would easily change an autoloss into an autowin, something that shouldn't exist in any game.

So there you have my opinions based on fact and experience from card games with and without sideboards. If you want a sideboard play it in fun pickup games and see how much it impacts your matchs.

 

[SHPanda]

The whole reason sideboards are in other games, is so when you run into a autolost you actually get a chance to win. Sideboarding is a such a hard skill, because if you take out the wrong cards you just lost the game. There are more positives for skill than there are downsides. However, this is "kids" game and adding more skill elements to the game would turn off a large player base. Better to be lucky than good right?

 

[PokePockets]

Simply have Judges watch the sideboarding in between games of top cut. Of course you would have to wait for other top cut matches to wait, so this would take a bit more time, but perhaps you can get another prof or someone who knows the game well enough to help the judges with the sideboarding process.

Overall, I think this would be a great idea, even if a Pokemon sideboard would be limited to 5 cards

 

[tehmoe]

i dont think that this is a bad idea, nor do i think it is a great one at that. i think it would be good b/c there's such a variety of decks out there and its impossible to tech against all of them, this will allow you to turn around to ridiculously bad matchups... its bad b/c f the obvious cheating etc... you say it takes more/less skill i dont see the difference b/c your main deck should still be what your working with (keep in mind this is like a 5 card sideboard not 15...)

this can improve the game play a lot and defeat the matchups that are impossible for your deck. gengar for example is a deck everyone might have trouble with... lets say you got 4 rounds without gengar your doing good, then gengar all of a sudden is your next match. i wasnt running any unown g, but now i can giving me a fighting chance, or now i run a skunktank g just for poison or something rather giving me a chance around F spell. this an help defeat the so called BDIF's in format. it will also increase variety in the game b/c now everyone won be bandwagoning decks just b/c they're good or think they're good as now anyone can tech them. this will also bringout possible well built rogues. this is just my opnion and you dont have to like it.

i understand that judges will have an even harder time with this, however, if it's something that does become considered it'll eventually become something usual and all judges wont see the difference eventually. it is always the first few times that are hard.

 

[dobsonr]

"You're playing spread?" *sideboards 1-0-1 nidoqueen*
"You're playing SP?" *sideboards in 1-1 Mewtwo Lv X"
"You're playing Gengar, Machamp, etc?" *sideboards in 2 unown G*

 

[hampuse1]

And how much time would you have to swap out cards? How would judges check to make sure you weren't swapping in a 6th or 7th rare candy? There are too many things that would conflict with the current game if a sideboard were added to the game.

You need to write up the sideboard of course, so you cant have 4 candy in the deck and more candys in the sideboard XD

 

[Yoshi-]

"You're playing spread?" *sideboards 1-0-1 nidoqueen*
"You're playing SP?" *sideboards in 1-1 Mewtwo Lv X"
"You're playing Gengar, Machamp, etc?" *sideboards in 2 unown G*

A dream comes true :biggrin: (*doesnt like decks that only focus on preventing a game from even happening*)

 

[PojosamaWannabe]

Sideboards are 100% perfect for any game in which archetypes dominate. Instead of teching in 1-1/2-2 lines, you can now better compliment your deck with 15 cards that can compete against different matchups. I think this would be a HUGE advancement of the game.

 

[Tagrineth]

Sideboards are 100% perfect for any game in which archetypes dominate. Instead of teching in 1-1/2-2 lines, you can now better compliment your deck with 15 cards that can compete against different matchups. I think this would be a HUGE advancement of the game.

With 15 cards you could literally change your deck's entire pokemon lineup, leaving the Claydols/Uxies.

4 cards. No more.

The only reason this is even a viable discussion at all is that the sideboard would be irrelevant during Swiss rounds, meaning your primary 60 cards would still have to be reasonably adaptible. Just means the people that make top cuts wouldn't be totally ruined by a bad matchup.

 

[PokePockets]

"You're playing spread?" *sideboards 1-0-1 nidoqueen*
"You're playing SP?" *sideboards in 1-1 Mewtwo Lv X"
"You're playing Gengar, Machamp, etc?" *sideboards in 2 unown G*

Um...the point?

Remember, everyone who wants this to happen knows that a 15 card sideboard won't happen. If we do get a sideboard, 5 will most likely be the limit

 

[Dragonitegirl07]

Sideboards don't work in pokemon. Why? Because pokemon is the only game out of the big 3 that gives you almost complete control of your deck. When you have the ability to get whatever you need almost whenever you want it, sideboard techs become a very bad idea. Even 5 cards can completly change a deck in pokemon, this is not the case in the other games. A huge part of deck building in pokemon is knowin the format and making your deck able to stand up to every deck in the format.

Sideboards are also pointless because our swiss is not best 2 out of 3.

 

[Aniodia]

Well, as I said before (though I think it got overlooked), What is the sideboard was limited to 4/5 cards, but could only contain Pokemon? As with the other games that use sideboards, you would still be limited to 4 of any one card, so none of the suggested "4 Candies/XXX Pokemon in the main deck and more in the side" nonsense.

But this way, as people have said, certain matches wouldn't devolve into "I'm playing <insert good deck> and you're playing <insert different good deck>. I call heads. Oh, it's tails? GG, hope you do better in the loser's bracket" that some decks are prone to doing. *cough*GENGAR*cough*

I do agree that "traditional" 15 card sideboards as put forth by other games would be way too many. Way too many. However, even if it's, say, 5 cards, you still have to shore up your weaknesses and not be so slow paint dries before you get set up. With some decks, even that extra 5 cards won't help cover everything. Even 15 cards doesn't always cover everything (though a lot more than 5 would, especially considering the nature of Pokemon).

Sideboards don't work in pokemon. Why? Because pokemon is the only game out of the big 3 that gives you almost complete control of your deck. When you have the ability to get whatever you need almost whenever you want it[...]

Actually, older formats in Magic (Legacy and Vintage) have decks that can deck themselves out (or come very close) just to win the game in one turn. In fact, most decks tend to have a bare minimum of 5 tutors on top of massive draw power. It's amazing and actually a bit nerve wracking to watch decks such as Manaless Ichorid and The Perfect Storm (google search for these if you're unfamiliar) do their thing, as they can often go off and completely decimate the opponent with little warning.

 

[blackfire]

I believe this is a good idea, however it would need to be closely monitored. IMO i think the side deck(sideboard) should be limited to 4 or 5 cards. for the complaints about switching cards that arent a part of the side deck, here is something i came up with.

Using this plan the side deck CAN be used during swiss tournament. When the Profs are appointed as judges, one gets the position to oversee all side deck changes during swiss. to make the change, after the players match is over and the winner is decided, if you want to change the setup of your deck with the side deck, you go to this judge. He/she will pull your decklist, and you show him what you are changing. There you go, side deck is used in swiss format. The number of judges to oversee this process can be determined based on turnout to the event.

I do believe that this idea should be tested first though. The best place IMO would be at the Prof Cup.

Just putting this idea out there. And for the record, I am one of those that never makes top cut. The only place this ever happens for me is at prereleases. I believe that this would give those of us that never see top cut have a MUCH better chance at seeing it.

 

[Regis_Neo]

While I do think this idea has some merit and should at least be looked at more by POP/whoever, like someone mentioned, it's just too easy to tech in and completely transform the way a deck is played in Pokemon. Whereas in Magic, where you have the fairly set land/theme you want to play, you can literally change your deck into a whole different one with 15 cards in Pokemon.