Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

So... what would you do?

L

Loser626

New Member
(Yay... Pokegym is finally back up)
Okay, this one is a tough one... It happened this past weekend while I was judging.

A player has a Dragonite d and a Rayquaza Ex d in play. He says that he is going to use the power "Delta Charge" and begins to search his discard pile only to find out that he has no basic lightning energy discarded. With that, he retreats his Rayquaza Ex d (discarding two lightning energy) and makes Dragonite d active.

Now for the question... can he use Dragonite d's PokePower to attach an energy from his discard pile to Rayquaza Ex d even though he has already called the power once (with no obvious effect)?

Please help us :biggrin:,
Loser
 
I would say that he can go ahead and use it because the requirements for using the power aren't met, similar to someone announcing an attack when they cannot use it due to not having enough energy. That is just me, though.

I could see people calling this one different ways; one could argue that he shouldn't be able to use the power again, similar to using PETM to search for an evolution in the deck when there are no evolution cards left.
 
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Theres a diference between using PETM and using that power, if you use PETM, your going through PRIVATE knowledge. You did what you could. Now for draggys power, you cannot use it because theres no L in your discard. Now you could get a caution for a gameplay error - minor, but i would let you use the power after retreating.


With draggy, the power states...you can attach a L from discard to a benched. If you cant attach L, then the power is not useable yet.

so i also would think if shiftry ex was in play, that dark eyes would fail in this situation cause the power cannot be completed.
 
Funny, I would rule the oposite and say no.

Delta Charge - Once during your turn (before your attack), you may attach a L Energy card from your discard pile to 1 of your Benched Pokemon. This power can't be used if Dragonite is affected by a Special Condition. (Poke-POWER)

As it says "once during your turn". The discard pile is public knowledge so he had the possability to check it beforhand. If he didn't , sorry for him.
 
Even though I guess there shouldn't be distinctions, had that been Nationals (where the level of play should naturally be high), I might be tempted to rule that the person lost their chance at it since they didn't take advantage of looking for it before they announced the power. However, since this is not, I'd give the person the benefit of the doubt and let them do so. It was an honest mistake, one that is easily correctable.

However, that's my opinion only. If a ruling appears regarding this, I'd be happy to do it either way.
 
loppe said:
Funny, I would rule the oposite and say no.

Delta Charge - Once during your turn (before your attack), you may attach a L Energy card from your discard pile to 1 of your Benched Pokemon. This power can't be used if Dragonite is affected by a Special Condition. (Poke-POWER)

As it says "once during your turn". The discard pile is public knowledge so he had the possability to check it beforhand. If he didn't , sorry for him.
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The fact that the discard pile is public knowledge actually argues for the opposite ruling. You can't do something that is "known" to have no effect. If the discard is known to not have an "L" energy, then the Power couldn't have been used. Rewind, Caution.
 
'Pop: I personally agree with you, but there was the Power tree ruling @ Worlds (I know you werent there and why.....you were missed!) where it was ruled that bc the player went thru the discard pile and didnt find a basic energy, when they later in same move...discarded an energy that could be retrieved via Power Tree, it was ruled that the Power Tree "attempt" earlier killed the chance to use it again later in the same turn.

Keith
 
Yeah, I think we need to discuss this and get a ruling on this whole class of errors.
 
Well, it's kind of like do you know if you even have the energy in your discard pile to do the power? Say you thought you discarded an energy and wanted to use draggys power, wouldn't you be able to check your discard before announcing to get the energy? Just to make sure? I could see a caution being issued for this though, just due to the fact that the player announced they were going to use delta charge, didn't have the energy, and then did it again when they did have it. It would really be up to individual judges though.
 
I believe, altho I was not in the 11-14 player pit for the T16 or T8 match ( I was in the 10- area), that Bobby M. (our Nat'l champ last yr in that age group) merely checked his discard pile to see if he had a basic energy in it, didnt even say "power tree", but the stadium was in play. His oppo. was the eventual winner w/ Lunasol, and naturally, being from a European country, english was not his 1st language. Bobby didnt find a basic energy, so, he then did a move to discard an energy, then went to use power tree and the oppo. objected, saying in his language, he already did it bc he looked thru the discard pile. Bottom line, the ruling was since he looked thru the pile already, he couldnt go back in. Again, I may be a bit off with the facts, but if those are it, IMHO, an improper ruling was made preventing the Power Tree to be used that turn. A player should announce what he is doing. Merely looking doesnt do it here.

'Pop: See if we can get a better/more consistent ruling on this issue. Seems like the opinions can go either way here.

Keith
 
The crux is does the ONCE refer to announcing the power or the resolution of the powers effects. Delta Charge has no effect unless there is a basic energy in the discard.

I'd place the ONCE on the resolution of the Delta Charge effect of adding an energy card. But that is based upon the English text, does the Japanese grammar change the interpretation?

Power Tree is a little bit different as it says to SEARCH. By announcing Power Tree you can definately do the search even when there is nothing there. So part of Power Tree's effect does resolve. Do as much as you can. That said without instruction from the other judges at worlds I think I would have allowed the subsequent use of Power Tree. hmm potential Prof test question here perhaps????

[Kieth : I hope that wasn't the case... seems very harsh to me if PowerTree wasn't declared. Its almost as if the rulling was that you had to announce that you WERENT using Power Tree whenever you looked at the discard pile just so that you couldn't be accused of failing to announce PowerTree correctly]
 
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Yeah, I'd say offhand that you should be able to look through your discard pile. My take on it is that once you "Announce" your move ( weather it be a stadiums effect, pokemon power, or attack, etc...)
then you must go through with that action. If the action cannot be completed on cause of game state ( ie, not having energy to use power tree), then you have used that move and cannot do it again. If you want to look through your discard pile, you really should announce that as well, so that your opponent knows what you are doing. If i were judging that ( and I do this, sometimes to the annoynance of players), I'd would have asked him why he was looking through his discard pile without announcing his intentions. I'd then give him a caution for failing to announce your move.
If you are going to look through either players discard pile, you have to announce that as well. A caution for failure to announce your move. That should have happened before it got to that. Once it gets to that, I'd say that since he didn't announce his move, the other player has no choice but to assume you were using your stadium. Caution and you rule that the stadium has already been used.
Rick
 
I would rule you couldn't use it again.

Same with Holon Transceiver - If you play Holon Transceiver, and look through your discard pile to find no supporters, you can't go through your deck to find one. This is slightly different, but both based on the fact that the player has to know the contents of the discard pile before making his move.
 
The discard pile is public knowledge, you can look at it at any time during play, such as when you are trying to determine who to send out if your active is KOed.

Let's look at a few examples:

Team Compendium said:
Q. The Expedition and Ruby/Sapphire versions of Potion says "remove 2 damage counters", but the original version said "remove *UP TO* 2 damage counters". Which way should we play the card?
A. You can only play Potion if you have 1 or more damage counters on that Pokémon Zero counters will not allow you to use Potion. (Jan 15, 2004 PUI Rules Team; Jan 22, 2004 PUI Rules Team)
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Team Compendium said:
Q. Could you Rare Candy a Pokémon and NOT play an evolution on it just to get rid of the Rare Candy?
A. No, you cannot discard a card for free. You must be able to attach the Stage 1 or Stage 2 card, or you cannot use the Rare Candy. (Oct 30, 2003 PUI Rules Team; Dec 4, 2003 PUI Rules Team)
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Both cards cannot be played because the effect of the cards cannot be completed. The player knows that he has no damage counters on any of his monsters or no evolution cards in his hand likewise.

That is why I would say that the player can use Delta Charge after retreating, even though he announced it before. The effect of the power couldn't be completed before because he had no basic Electric energy in his discard pile, thus he didn't use the power.
 
Delta Charge cannot be used if there is nothing in the discard pile. As PokePop and a few others suggested, the player gets a caution and is allowed to do Delta Charge when possible since it never happened.

Cards at Worlds seem to get different rulings than how they otherwise have been ruled :/
 
O.k, I would rules as follows.

jr level: I would allow them to use it, they are young and young tent to make mistake.

advance level: I would allow them to use it, but only once, if you make a mistake again, too bad.

master level: no, you guys are suppost to be expert...only your self is to blame....why didn;t you check your discard pile first?.
 
calvin_0 said:
master level: no, you guys are suppost to be expert...only your self is to blame....why didn;t you check your discard pile first?.
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Master division players can be new too. For some reason, being 15+ seems to mean that you're experienced and know the cards and rules like knowing your hand. Perish the thought that a 17-year-old is just coming back into this game after a few years and is just entering the tournament scene.
 
O.k....but still no, this really not about rulling...its kindda basic understanding, its clearly written there "Once during your turn". so if you use without checking, too bad for you.
 
Calvin_o
The card does not say "Once during your turn you may announce Delta Charge. Having announced Delta Charge search your discard pile for an L energy, If you find an L energy card then attach it to one of your benched pokemon.....etc"

The card states " Once during your turn you may attach.........."

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Players are allowed to look at their discard pile. There should be no presumption that they are using a power or playing a trainer or doing anything other than just examining the discard pile as part of the mental process of deciding what to do.

If they want to use Power Tree then they need to announce "Power Tree". Its the PLAYERS CHOICE and not the judges.

If no part of Delta Charge can resolve (which is the case here) then it is a minor game play error - CANT HAPPEN DIDNT HAPPEN, and not cant happen so you loose the option.

What next? Loosing your one energy attachment per turn when you make a minor error with a scramble?

I'm really worried about the growing mindset to take advantage of anything and everything that isn't quite correct.
 
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Rocketman said:
Yeah, I'd say offhand that you should be able to look through your discard pile. My take on it is that once you "Announce" your move ( weather it be a stadiums effect, pokemon power, or attack, etc...)
then you must go through with that action. If the action cannot be completed on cause of game state ( ie, not having energy to use power tree), then you have used that move and cannot do it again. If you want to look through your discard pile, you really should announce that as well, so that your opponent knows what you are doing. If i were judging that ( and I do this, sometimes to the annoynance of players), I'd would have asked him why he was looking through his discard pile without announcing his intentions. I'd then give him a caution for failing to announce your move.
If you are going to look through either players discard pile, you have to announce that as well. A caution for failure to announce your move. That should have happened before it got to that. Once it gets to that, I'd say that since he didn't announce his move, the other player has no choice but to assume you were using your stadium. Caution and you rule that the stadium has already been used.
Rick
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discard pile can be looked through at anytime for no reason. i can even look through my opponenets discard pile as its contents are PUBLIC knowledge.(granted you should ask your opponenet first if you can see their cards, as it is just a courtesy.) but if you are looking through, not announcing anything... then all i consider it to be doing, is checking public knowledge. no illegal game play, no error, nothing. his power's and/or stadium are still allowed to be used.

if he announces delta charge, and no lightning energy, i wouldn't say the power was used, as its requirements were not fulfilled, and it was impossible to use. but that is just me.


NoPoke said:
Calvin_o
The card does not say "Once during your turn you may announce Delta Charge. Having announced Delta Charge search your discard pile for an L energy, If you find an L energy card then attach it to one of your benched pokemon.....etc"

The card states " Once during your turn you may attach.........."

---------------------------

Players are allowed to look at their discard pile. There should be no presumption that they are using a power or playing a trainer or doing anything other than just examining the discard pile as part of the mental process of deciding what to do.

If they want to use Power Tree then they need to announce "Power Tree". Its the PLAYERS CHOICE and not the judges.

If no part of Delta Charge can resolve (which is the case here) then it is a minor game play error - CANT HAPPEN DIDNT HAPPEN, and not cant happen so you loose the option.

What next? Loosing your one energy attachment per turn when you make a minor error with a scramble?

I'm really worried about the growing mindset to take advantage of anything and everything that isn't quite correct.
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careful... i have seen players claim that they attached an energy like DRE to a basic, and their opponents tell them that was their energy attachment and the energy gets discarded. it has happened. i rule that it is rewindable and it doesn't count as an energy attachment. but people who are losing or hold a grudge in a game will nit-pick on any "error" and try to take advantage of it to turn the tide of the game. truly sad when that happens.

Donos
 
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