Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

TCG Design: What would you like to see in Pokemon?

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TRAINER HEZ

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With several topics recently becoming discussions on what some people feel is wrong with the game, card design has come up a lot. The often meandering "Is the current format the worst ever?" thread features many interesting ideas on game design.

So I thought I'd start a thread to discuss these ideas without going off-topic. If you were in charge what would you do with the game? What's good and what's bad with current design? Can you think of any interesting design space that hasn't been covered before? What are your hopes for the XY series?

To kick things off, I'm hoping for a return to a power level on each Pokemon card more suited to it's stage. e.g. a Basic is never strictly better than a Stage 2, it's advantage is it's easier to get into play, harder to disrupt and takes up less deck space...

One idea I had to print Legendary Pokemon that seem suitably powerful enough but without being overpowered Basics was a return to the idea of Pokemon LEGEND cards, but with a twist!
I'd say 1 Pokemon to 1 card as the 2 card system caused too much inconsistency because you could only really have 2 of that Pokemon in a deck and the half you need might be prized, this led to them being underplayed and undesired by players, only getting 1 half in a pack made it frustrating to collectors too.
The 1 LEGEND per card system would maintain that the Pokemon doesn't count as Basic so you can't play it at set-up and there'd be a requirement on the card to play it, a "LEGENDARY Ritual" or something similar.
e.g. Kyogre LEGEND's ritual could be "Flooded World: You cannot play this Pokemon onto your bench unless you have at least 3 Water energy in your discard pile".
This would mean the Pokemon could be more powerful than a regular Basic without being broken. It couldn't be played in the 1st few turns and is harder to find in your deck making it more of an epic finisher rather than a decks bread and butter attacker, surely a more suitable role for a Legendary Pokemon?

Ok, that's just 1 idea, what does everyone else have to say?
 
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When it comes to card design, a lot of number crunching and actual experience with the real game has lead me to believe the correct approach is that Pokémon that no longer Evolve need to be on even footing.

I don't want a game where Basic Pokémon dominate because they are naturally faster, but neither do I want a game where Evolutions dominate because they have so much more power. Designing similarly purposes Pokémon that cannot further Evolve regardless of their Stage results in them fairly competing against each, provided you make some simple design choices:

1) Avoid early game acceleration; it should come as no surprise that making cards faster almost always makes them harder to balance. Some forms of it are never a good idea, but at least some are fine if they aren't hitting until turn three or later.

2) Avoid relationships that just don't make sense; a Stage 2 Pokémon isn't very good at first turn set-up, even when you can violate the Evolution rules. It can be done, but it is so risky, why try?

3) Consider the realistic pros and cons of each Stage and design the card accordingly. If we don't want big, Basic Pokémon to be impossibly superior attackers... don't nerf them, just don't give them an inexpensive, effective offensive opening attack. If it takes three turns to power them up for all but a placeholder small attack (if that), then they aren't able to dominate the game before Stage 2 Pokémon hit.

4) Make sure Evolution is rewarded properly... and make sure lower Stages aren't mindless filler or baggage. If an Evolving Basic is a good opening Pokémon, aiding in set-up, that is to the final form's advantage. Helpful Abilities should be more or less standard, making it so that no one even wants to skip the Stage 1 form of a Stage 2 Pokémon.

5) Do away with damaging attacks intended for the first turn or two of the game. Instead have cards focus on setting up or disruption. This makes donks impossible and encourages developing your long term plans more.

6) Raise HP levels across the board. The more HP we have, the more damage can be done without breaking the game. The more damage that is done, the easier it is to fine tune attacks.

7) "Front load" HP for lower Stages; it just balances the game better because then a Basic that Evolves twice isn't such a huge target. Using current HP scores, a Stage 2 with 150 Hp should have about 130 on the Stage 1 and 110 on the Basic Pokémon. What a world of difference that would make?

8) Go back to the +X/-X Weakness/Resistance system. Multipliers get too crazy in the TCG, where you are building up cards and not starting with everything ready to go (like in the video game).

Obviously I have a lot more to say on this, but this quick rehashing of a core concept has become pretty central. I do a lot better discussing it with players one-on-one, because in forums there are usually too many questions, arguments, and even assumptions that confuse the matter.
 
I definitley hope X+Y series bring back the +X weakness system again. It would make RPS metas better, as long as bad matchups can be easilly teched against. If its a sole BDIF format, then deck should be easily customisable with a plethora of trainers and differentiating attackers to choose from.
 
All of those sounds like good suggestions. The reason I brought up Pokemon LEGEND is that people are going to expect some really impressive looking Legendary Pokemon after the big Basics and EXs of B&W. That way you still have Legends that look terrifying in both cheap and expensive attacks (and art of course, full art painted style like the original LEGENDS is what I'd like to see) but these attacks will have balance because there's only so early you could get them online without building the entire deck around them which would hopefully bring it's own drawbacks.

2) is a good point... the Leavanny with the evolving effect is just bizarre and useless (apart from the niche and shortlived usage with Mew Prime).

7) not so sure about this. I think D&P was heading in this sort of direction, the starter Pokemon Basics were much stronger than what we'd seen before. I think having Stage 2s be basically better than other fully evolved stages (e.g. higher hp and attack power) is ok because the lower stages they evolve from are weaker, that's part of their drawback. A small boost to the little Basics HP would be ok, but I'd hate to see one of the few things that hasn't experienced ridiculous power creep finally give in. They're only a problem now because of the raw power available to fully evolved Basics (and to an extent, Catcher)...

8)...Leading on to this point. Another thing started in D&P which was a great addition to the game but was then taken away :S It was a nice extra tool for balance. The Evolving Basics only had +10 weakness whereas the stronger fully evolved Basics would have +more or even x2. I agree with you fully that this should come back.

What I said in 7) wouldn't seem so unusual again with the addition of LEGEND as an "ever green" mechanic as you still get a thing that feels like an overpowered Basic Legend but with a mid-late game balance built in so the weaker evolving Basics have a chance to get set up. These new LEGENDs would fill the space occupied by Planeswalkers in MtG, the flagship characters of the game get their own card type to really show them off whilst giving them their own strengths and weaknesses. This would mean not printing Legendaries as regular Pokemon I think, but this would just make them seem more special, they are Legendary after all!
 
My idea for legendary Pokemon was for their cards to say 'legendary' for its stage type and not basic. This way cards that target basic Pokemon wont work on legendaries. But if they make them less powerful this may not be needed. The thing is they should have some guidelines on how to make cards. Basic, Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokemon should have limits to how powerful they are and the same with EX Pokemon of each stage.

Another thing they can do is add every other type into the tcg.
 
The Pokemon LEGEND from the HGSS series did say LEGEND instead of Basic as their stage type, though the draw back ended up being too severe combined with the 2 card system. I do agree that there needs to be some sort of guidelines for each stage and if they wanted to break a guideline for one stat another would have to be greatly compromised.
e.g. Lets just say they decided the roof for a Stage 1s HP was 120 and damage for a 3 energy attack was 70 but they wanted to make a Blissey with 160 HP, then it's attack power would have to be crippled down to say 40 for 3. A basic model of "attacker", "defender", "balanced" and "support" Pokemon types would help create Pokemon that can't just carry a deck by themselves meaning deck building would need to be more creative.

I don't agree with each type getting it's own energy in the TCG though, it's not just power-creep that kills games, complexity creep can do that too. You'll never be able to recreate the VG perfectly as cards anyway as Otaku said in the other thread. And what'd be the point... you'd just be better playing the VG then. :S
A rebalance is in order though as Fire, Lighting, Steel and Dark are all much smaller than the other types as they only have 1 VG type each and they're small types to begin with!
Colorless could be shrunk down as it's the only remaining "special" type (well, along with the multi-colour Dragons) and it's colorless nature means having a smaller number of them in a set won't hurt Limited. With this alteration you'd then have Flying to move around too. So...

GRASS: grass and bug (could bug fit anywhere else?)
WATER: water and ice (ice fits thematically but poorly weakness/resist wise)
FIGHTING: fighting and ground (I think rock could move)
PSYCHIC: psychic. which moves out of [ghost] and [poison]?
FIRE: fire and... really not sure what else could join it. [poison] is my best match
LIGHTNING: electric and flying (feels quite natural, things that strike from the sky. worked in delta species)
DARKNESS: dark and either [ghost] or [poison]
STEEL: metal and rock (again, quite natural, it's the tough things type. no weirdness with flyers resisting rock attacks)

COLORLESS: just normal Pokemon
DRAGON: just multicolour dragons

As you can see this aims to put 2 VG types in each regular TCG type. Water and Grass would still be huge and one regular type still has 1 VG type. The only way this could be fixed is to move either Bug or Ice elsewhere... Ice seems kind of stuck but Bug perhaps? Dark works for some (the creepy type) but it doesn't work so well for "cute" things like Ledyba or Butterfree...
 
When determining power of a card, stage should not define power, difficulty to use should define power.

(Before I proceed, I should note that by difficulty to use, I mean the amount of resources they take up, such as time, Energy, deck space, cards needed to play them, and liabilities like weak lower stages and low HP.)

Stage ties into that, but is not the sole factor. Basic Pokémon are naturally easier to play then Stage 1s, and Stage 1s easier to play than Stage 2s. Therefore, Stage 2s should naturally be stronger than Stages 1s and so on. However, card effects affect this difference in strength.

Two sides I have seen in this thread are,

"Stage 2s should be stronger than other Stages because they are harder to play because they have to Evolve and their lower stages are weaker."

and

"Stage 2s should be about on par with the other Stages and given some boost to their lower stages because they are harder to play since they have to Evolve."

Why not both, depending on the Pokémon?

If a Stage 2 has lower stages that make it as "easy" to play as a medium difficulty, medium strength Basic or give some other advantage equal to that, it should be roughly on par in strength to that Basic. As exact balance is unlikely, the Stage 2 would likely be a tiny bit more powerful, but it might not need to be. This follows the latter side.

If a Stage 2 has lower stages that are merely a liability and make it harder to play as a medium difficulty, medium strength Basic, it should obviously be stronger. This follows the former side.

The final evolutions of Pokémon vary in strength among the different species, even among the ones that are considered "Stage 2" in the TCG. Why not let them vary in strength here, but have some incentive to play the "weaker" ones by backing them up with better lower stages?

The balance of difficulty and power is why I like the idea of Legendary Pokémon being a separate classification with requirements to play, as TRAINER HEZ has suggested: It allows them to be as difficult as higher Stages, which lets them have equal power, as well as keeping things that seem out of place to the source material a bit less likely. (It seems odd to start with a Legendary Pokémon, if the TCG is meant to take into account capturing and raising Pokémon, as it appears to, with cards such as Rare Candy and Ultra Ball, as well as the whole Evolving in mid-battle thing.)

Stage 1s fit into this in the same manner as the other Stages, difficulty defining power, with the "base" being between Basics and Stage 2s naturally.

Of course, support effects are "power" in their own manner, and should be treated as such.

On a note disconnected with the rest of my post, I agree with the variable Weakness thing. It provides another balancing agent in design.
 
On the subject of type changes, I think Ghosts making the jump to Dark type as mentioned makes perfect sense, seeing as Ghosts themselves are weak to other Ghosts and Darks in the VG.

Now, what if the TCG got creative with Weakness, printing at the same time cards with +X Weaknesses and others with multiplying Weakness? The latter could serve as a tradeoff for the strongest cards, such as the current EXs. (I am new to the TCG so perhaps they've already done this?)
 
There is another thing about the video games that doesn't translate well to the TCG, and that is the fact that all fully Evolved Pokémon aren't even close to being on equal footing.

The nature of the video games is that crafting a Pokémon is more akin to crafting a deck than actually playing that Pokémon in the TCG. There are also circumstances to make it so that most Pokémon have a purpose even if they aren't the best in terms of stats for combat. There is even just the "oh well, it is one of X00 options!" mentality as well.

While I don't want end Stages to become so homogenized that they are all carbon copies of each other, the kind of differences we see between Pokémon in terms of capacity really need to be ignored in the TCG... or at least toned down. Some of this can be handled by making sure those that aren't so good at combat are used more for set-up or support.

Still, let us work through a hypothetical set-up. For the sake of argument, this imaginary format has no Energy or Evolution acceleration, nor cards that favor a specific Stage.

Let us say we have three Pokémon, that in the video game, are all the same Type with the same Base Stats. Pokémon A is a Basic that does not Evolve, Pokémon B is a Stage 1 that does not further Evolve, and Pokémon C is a Stage 2. If they were all designed to meet similar functions (say "main attacker") then how would they differ?

I would give all three more or less the same "stats", that is HP, Weakness, Resistance, and Retreat cost. Likewise, their overall damage capacity would be similar. The how do I balance the different Stages?

Pokémon A would likely have two attacks. The first attack, if inexpensive enough to use first turn (so in a world with no acceleration, requiring just one Energy), would be something a bit... weak. If not overpriced, it wouldn't be hitting for damage. Maybe (C) just to inflict Burn so it can do something while powering up its big attack.

If the attack was priced so it wasn't available until the second turn, it could be a little better, but we don't want something that is shredding the competition before some of that competition can hope to be played. The big attack would just be a standard, competitive attack.

So what about the Stage 1 Pokémon? It would be similar, except it could have a more efficient smaller attack, as said smaller attack would never hit the field before Turn 2 (e.g. it could do something more effective for one Energy). Otherwise, its large attack would be a standard, competitive attack.

By now the Stage 2 should be obvious; if it has an inexpensive single Energy attack, it can do even more since it won't hit the field before the third turn. Nothing too crazy, but something. Otherwise, if it has the standard large competitive attack... again it is going to be more or less the same. By more or less, I again am speaking mostly of flavor, or at least variances in mechanics that are meant to be equally effective.

So even though the big Basic Pokémon is able to hit the field first turn... it can't do much. This forces it to rely on something else to help set-up or dedicate more slots to healing as a part of its core strategy. In fact, opening with it probably isn't good; it might take a beating for two, three, or even four turns before its "main" attack is ready. Now, by "set-up" I mean another Pokémon, in the appropriate capacity. It could be a non-Evolving Basic Pokémon dedicated to setting up, or an Evolving Basic Pokémon that still has a good set-up effect.

The other two? While they probably also wouldn't want to be run on their own, and while the Evolutions eat up more slots, the Basic form would be a good set-up (or early game disruption) Pokémon. If it is a Stage 2, the Stage 1 should probably have an Ability to generate some advantage (akin to the Item a mono-basic build would likely run in its stead) and its attack should be a decent opening/closing option.

So if you wanted to, you could build a deck with a non-Evolving Basic opening Pokémon, a Stage 1 (that doesn't Evolve) supporting Pokémon, and a Stage 2 line. Maxing all out would eat up a lot of space, but you would have 12 viable opening Pokémon in the deck, upwards of eight supporting Stage 1 Pokémon (the Stage 1 that does Evolve and the one that doesn't), and the main attraction, the Stage 2. While a player running a mono-basic deck could just run 12 Basic Pokémon, at most eight are good opens if four are good, main attackers. Plus the Evolving Stage 1 form of the Stage 2 line should generate advantage comparable to an Item!

Addendum: Also, by designing Pokémon so standard, aggressive attacks just don't happen on a player's first turn, we minimize the abuse of damage enhancing cards and eliminate donks entirely.
 
I think the game is entering a good place with the release of Plasma Storm. Ether and Virbank will make it much easier to come up with counter strategies than what we previously had in the past formats, and Lugia EX adds prize gaining to the game, while Victini EX adds some great early game acceleration.

With the release of XY, I would like them go back to the same special mechanics that they had during Heart Gold Soul Silver.

First, I would like the return of Pokemon Prime cards, which would just be a set of really good Stage 2, Stage 1, and non-Legendary Basic Pokemon this time around.

In addition to that, I would like to see some new takes on the Legend mechanic for Legendary Pokemon, and have Legendary Pokemon primary get filled into those card slots.
 
maybe something like the stars with the legendary pokemon where you can only play one in your deck, and something to prevent it from being played early game.
 
I'm just saying this, in the games usually there are only 1 legendary pokemon per game, although this isn't the case in the anime, nor is it the case if you link your DS's up, but storywise, there is supposed to be only one of each legendary pokemon.

If this is the case, then why not do a legend rule where you are allowed only one legendary pokemon on both sides of the field at one time, and if you play Zekrom, while your opponent has a Zekrom, they both go into the discard pile.

MTG has legends where flavorfully, it wouldn't make any sense if there were 2 of the same person on there, so originally, if there was a legend card in play, you aren't allowed to play that same card, but they realized that it would make it so whoever plays that legend first, would have the advantage, so they changed it so that if you play a certain legend creature, while your opponent has his out, both go into the graveyard.

I would like to see something similar. If I have Zekrom EX on my bench or as the active pokemon, and my opponent puts Zekrom EX on his bench, both my Zekrom EX and his Zekrom EX goes to the discard pile.

Come to think of it, it need not be legendary pokemon, but special cards like ex, Lv X, Prime, or EX. This could be the X and Y subseries "special cards", just as ex series has ex, DP series has Lv X, HGSS series has Prime, and BW series has EX.

I also like the "only 1 copy in your deck" idea as well, so they can make a super powerful card, but it is hard to draw it.
 
signofzeta said:
I also like the "only 1 copy in your deck" idea as well, so they can make a super powerful card, but it is hard to draw it.
Click to expand...

Not really true in Pokémon. Notice how we got Ace Spec cards alongside Skyla, and how the game rarely lacks search effects for Pokémon.

I do not want to see Pokémon "Prime" return. I think I understand why they existed... because Creatures, Inc. was prepping us for power creep. Otherwise, it makes little sense to someone who wants a game with a wide open, diverse metagame that also isn't built from a mere fraction of the card pool.

Basically, Pokémon Prime were instituting the idea of "Rare Cards = Better Cards". I don't buy that... in some cases quite literally. :rolleyes: I recognize that the standard collectible cards (game or not) model creates chase rares to entice collectors. This doesn't have to be done at the expense of the players though; higher rarities are great for special treatment cards, like holos or the rarer color schemes of Shiny Pokémon from the video games. I am still disappointed that with the Black & White series, we didn't get black and white illustrated cards; even just lifting good art from the manga would have been adequate.

If rarity must be used for most than that, putting more complex cards at higher rarities can help buffer the learning curve of the game, as well as more specialized cards (which will usually be more potent relative to a card with general usage).
 
Can we smack the moron who decided that only legendaries can be Pokemon EX, and bring back evolving EXs please?
 
Ultra-rare mechanics is not so much a problem. It will always be something worth the money.
What I would like is more emphasis on the non-utrarare Pokémon. Like, an actual set is 75% unplayable cards, 15% half-playable, 5% playable 5% broken. Could we have 30% unplayable 60% half-playable 10% playable? Just making non-ultrarare non-trainer cards more interesting.
 
1) Abilities that do something else than 'once during your turn'. Think about Neo Genesis Slowking, but obviously not that powerful. Generally also more Abilities that interact with your opponent's game rather than your own. Turn-based should not mean you can sleep through your opponent's turn.

2) Synergistic, toolboxy decks to be viable. I actually enjoyed the design of the Holon and SP eras and like the idea behind Plasma as well, but I feel that they can push this more.

3) More discard pile/lost zone manipulation. I think these are two of the most underused mechanics in the game and can work very well if balanced properly. Cards like Ho-oh EX are an example and give a new dimension to the game but again, we can do this more. For instance, they could make the next boatload of Ghost types all have Abilities that activate in the discard pile or something similar.

4) Please please please, make attacking for TONS OF DAMAGE not the only probable win condition. I for one didn't mind Lost World and I also liked that stall/mill was a viable archetype, although the decks itself were a little boring to play with. I can see a spot in the metagame for combo decks, too, although combos in Pokemon are usually still based on taking 6 prizes asap. There's room to do something crazy with this as well.
 
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I just don't understand why they make the super powerful cards that are good no matter what, and the proceed to make items for those cards to make them even better than they are now. I think if they would have done something like DRE where it didn't work on EXs and made it so the stage 2's were the only ones getting the effect, then it would help to balance out the format. No more Prism energies, no more eviolite, or Skyarrow bridge. All these things did was made the already over powered EX's even more over powered.
 
Honestly, aside from Pokemon-EX, I think the current format is actually pretty decent. I'd like to see one or two more types get spun off on their own, but only if they're large enough to be worthwhile. Something like Ice or Ghost should never be a standalone type. I could see Rock/Ground splitting off, given Gen 5 significantly expanded the number of Fighting-Types in circulation. (And Fighting seems to be the favoured type in the current Fighting TCG type by card makers, Rocks tend to get pretty neglected.) As for moving types around, I don't think that is such a great idea. Most of the current parings make sense. There's nothing logical to move to Fire or Lightning, which are the types that really need bolstering anyway. (Darkness and Metal are pretty small, too, but they tend to get a lot more focus and support.) I could maybe see Ghost moving to Dark, but that's about it. Bug needs to stay with Grass, since they're thematically relatively similar and would probably share their Fire weakness anyway. (Unless Flying got spun off, but I couldn't see that happening since there'd still be a lot of Colorless birds to dilute Normal's Fighting weakness anyway.)

Making Resistance play a greater role would be welcome, too. Varying levels of resistance (similar to DP-era weakness) would be nice, and make Stage 1/2 Pokemon that much more useful. (Having higher amounts of resistance, of course.)

I can't really begin to guess at new/returning old mechanics since we know about 5 sentences of XY information, though I'll go ahead and say I'd be fine with Technical Machines and Pokemon-Lv.X coming back. Oh, and we totally need Master Ball and Luxury Ball printed at some point with new effects, but that isn't anything specific to a new series. ;p (Obv. I'm getting at that Master Ball should do what Luxury Ball currently does since Great Ball took Master Ball's old effect.)

So, in conclusion... I ramble a lot.
 
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