Yay! Let's talk about theory together for once.
Groovy. :thumb:
I'll try to be on my best behavior.
Just a reminder (especially for those watching from the sidelines), I've got a long history with this game and when I seem to go into information overload, it is because like a history professor I know all the things that lead up to an event and then were triggered by it... and can't assume everyone else knows this (experience says they don't).
I hadn't considered it this way. My explanation regarding legendaries has always been that the game designers made Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, etc with the intent of them being "too good". That was always the point; they were "too good" and weren't meant to be part of normal competition, hence their consistent ban in official sanctioned play right now.
That is how they are in the video games... which I consider pretty poor game design. I seriously can fill a thread, all on my own, about all the simple (e.g. requires just minor revision) aspects I consider design flaws or at least outdated but formerly acceptable concepts and mechanics with the video games. The fact that for a bizarre mixture of style and realism they intentionally fail at character balance is a big one.
If it happens, it happens but don't try and make it that way! Besides making the video games less fun and complicates our lives over in the TCG.
I got complacent with their portrayal in the TCG as being showy but poor gimmicks at best and am taken by surprise at seeing them actually so good right now - nor do I like it.
My friend, this is why I stress the need to learn the history of the game. Besides being educational, playing older formats is often fun and affordable in real life. You know me; I've been playing since the earliest days of the English game (even if it took a few years to access the online community and Organized Play).
Ugh... resisting going into too much detail, Legendary Pokémon are almost always hit or miss; to some extent it is the nature of Basic Pokémon in the game. Back in
Base Set, we got two Legendary Pokémon, and ultimately neither wear competitive (though they faked it for a bit). Two sets later, we got three more; two whiffed but one (
Fossil Articuno) is why Rain Dance was considered one of the strongest decks of the time, possibly second only to Haymaker.
Then we got "Movie Promo"
Mewtwo before the fourth set (fifth if you counted
Base Set 2) and it was a major force largely defining the game until
Neo Genesis brought us the original
Sneasel... which as you may know was banned from Modified play at the inception of the original Modified format!
So sadly, overpowered Legendary Pokémon date back to the first full year of the game! Nor am I saying I like that; as ever I want balance. I want Legendary Pokémon worthy of their status... but I still want them ultimately balanced within the conventions of game play. It is tricky, but it can be done, and without nerfing them.
The game at its core has been about evolution; is it so wrong to continue to honor that unique and enjoyable mechanic?
Here we disagree; Pokémon at its core has always been about finding the "pocket monster" that suits you best and doing whatever it is you do with them (collect, battle, etc.). One of the elements that goes with that is raising a Pokémon so that it "Evolves" and grows stronger, but not every Pokémon Evolves. Plenty of Basic Pokémon (even disregarding Legendary Pokémon) have been popular and strong... to the point that popularity results in them getting "baby" forms and/or Evolutions!
Now if you recall, I repeatedly have explained how to not only honor the Evolution mechanic within the TCG, but how to actually make it effective again... or at least my best guess as to how. :lol: I fear you are presenting a false choice; "honoring" that mechanic has nothing to do with creating Evolved Pokémon-EX. I have identified several elements I consider design flaws within the TCG (imbalanced power creep, improper acceleration, and filler).
If we wish to restore the Evolution mechanic to a place of prominence, the steps I've outlined repeatedly (even in this thread) seem like a good start. Otherwise, we don't have equality. "Sameness" does not equal "equality". At the same time, external balancing agents aren't really making things equal either; you're just burdening whatever is currently dominating with so-called "counters" or providing crutches that don't really make whatever is weaker "equal" either.
The fix involves working within the core mechanics of the game. Phase out early game Energy and Evolution acceleration while also dialing back the speed of damaging attacks (I would also like to see HP scores across the board go up). Doing this means you can now slap better Abilities and attacks on lower Stages that Evolve, and when they aren't just placeholder for their final forms, Evolution becomes an alternative to a strong Basic Pokémon backed by Trainers; no better but no worse.
We agree on some points here. Pokemon-EX are not the problem I might have with this format. I disagree with their design, however. They are so irritatingly linear; every one is "attach and do damage" with some variation on effects. Luxchomp at least had some greater strategy in terms of what to damage, and had a great deal of tricks up its sleeves in the way of Power Spray, Galactic Switch, and Flash Bite.
I have issues with their design as well, because it doesn't match what I have suggested and what I believe will work. To be fair, they aren't completely homogenous... but the one's that see play come close. Notice that with Energy acceleration and Energy removal both being factors in the game, "attach and do damage" is about all that can be successful.
I am a bit confused; first I don't know what "Galactic Switch" is; congrats you're dealing with a format I largely missed. :lol: Yes I have tried to learn of it, but if that is a card name I don't recognize it and can't find it and if it is a strategy name... it is a strategy name.
Power Spray is an Item... yes a "themed" Item but an Item, barely more creative than
Enhanced Hammer. Flash Bite was an abused Basic Pokémon with a Poké-Power. If you want to know why Abilities on Basic Pokémon aren't what they used to be... you just named it. Flash Bite was arguably "too good", at least in light of the rest of the card pool.
In fact, you example of fun game play undermines Evolution based game-play. The
Luxray and
Garchomp in questions were Basic Pokémon with Level-Up forms. Level-Up cards are not Evolutions, despite superficial similarities. It is a different mechanic akin to a personalized, permanent Technical Machine/Pokémon Tool.
...though, thinking this point further, I guess I'm really a fan of Pokemon-based gameplay rather than Trainer-based. In this format we've got something less broken but still usable as Healing Breath: Max Potion. We've got Catcher to replace Bright Look. But I miss the Power- and Ability-centered decks like Palkia, Chandelure, ZPST and Cake. Right now we have Trainer-based gameplay. Pokemon are basic and linear. The interesting part is your trainer selection, which unfortunately is equally available to every deck and thus gives a less varied and more stale feel to me. And, I'd guess, to lots of people.
Thoughts?
Most of what you mentioned isn't what I consider "Pokémon-based gameplay". Something I learned from
Yu-Gi-Oh is that when one card type behaves too much like another card type, it functionally becomes that card type, or the worst of both card types.
It holds true in Pokémon as well; slapping an HP score and requiring you play it to your Bench doesn't make it truly a Pokémon from a game play/experience perspective, which is basically what we discuss when we say things like "feels like" and focus on the fun factor. A few of the cards/decks you mentioned were Pokémon oriented, but when a Pokémon is used purely in place of a Trainer (
Shaymin and
Pachirisu in ZPST) or is a Trainer that "happens" to have a useful Pokémon attached to it (
Luxray [GL] and
Luxray [GL] Lv.X).
But what about Cyrus' Conspiracy, Otaku!? What about Roseanne's Research, Pokemon Collector, and Bebe's Search?! I want my search-based format back! That felt so much better.
The above quote was preceded by the text when I commented how draw power has also, alarmingly been hit by power creep... despite decks still containing 60 cards and most cards lacking new "to play" requirements (or anything else to mechanically account for the increase). I was referring to draw power and giving examples of draw power.
I had hoped it would be clear the same thing applies to search. Search cards are always a bit tricky, especially in Pokémon. If they are too good, they outclass general draw power... and since Pokémon basically is structured so that you kind of need your draw power each turn, the search has to be good enough to compensate.
Some search cards are flat out too good;
Cyrus Conspiracy snags three cards... that's the same yield as
Cheren! Yes they were specific cards (so you couldn't get Pokémon with them), but two of the three were often immediately useful for generating advantage, and the third (the Supporter) just helped set-up for next turn.
Pokémon Collector isn't as overpowered, but three Basic Pokémon is quite a bit and only seems "balanced" when the format is out of whack and you can't run a deck built largely around basic Pokémon. Actually, given the formats where it saw play,
Pokémon Collector was overpowered; you had draw Supporters pretending to be Basic Pokémon!
Notice what I held up as "balanced" draw power;
Professor Oak's Research and
TV Reporter. They are generic draw power, the former shuffles and draws five cards and the latter draws three then forces you to discard a card from your new, larger hand. Think of what that meant to the pacing of the game. There were bigger draw Supporters that existed with them, but they were circumstantial;
Steven's Advice was usually good, but not to the point you ran it to the exclusion of something more reliable. Same thing goes for
Copycat.
So getting back to the search cards,
Roseanne's Research is borderline depending upon the card pool (again, if you have a Supporter masquerading as a Basic Pokémon it causes problems, or a format like the current dominated by big, Basic Pokémon
).
Bebe's Search is more in line with the older, more balanced search that would go alongside
Professor Oak's Research.
Well, no it didn't; the thing is, back then we had Uxie and Claydol to give us cards on at least a semi-consistent basis, meaning we could utilize our supporters on more efficiently. It was actually viable to run 1-0-1 + 2 Candy lines in non-stage 2 decks back then (particularly Claydol era) because you could actually expect to find the pieces not just regularly, but quickly if you needed to. Search supporters were the best! I want them back.
Again, thoughts?
Consider what you are saying, and how Supporters are meant to be balanced. You need to have a significant investment for "alternative" draw/search mechanics, but it isn't just the once-per-turn mechanic that balances Supporters; it is also how this game is designed to need a steady supply of cards to hand that the manual once-per-turn draw cannot meet. Then non-draw effects in Supporters can be balanced not by discarding cards from hand or other penalties, but because you are giving up some or all of the normal draw yield.
I've got some bad news for you; you are the victim of a cruel hoax.
Uxie (
Legends Awakened 43/146) isn't really a Pokémon. Look at that effect; clearly it is a Supporter in disguise. I think it may be a cos-playing Pokémon Professor myself. Hrm? Only a foot tall? Okay so its small robot acting on behalf of...
Kidding aside, I hope the point is actually clearly illustrated by this gag;
Uxie was rarely used "as a Pokémon". It ultimately behaved a "second Supporter" for the turn.
Claydol wasn't much better, trading being a Stage 1 for being reusable and having a decent attack (back then). They weren't the first supporting Pokémon to be "too good", and not even the first to be too good that basically provided a pseudo-Supporter to use on top of your real one for the turn.
If you don't like how this format is turning out, you can thank how some of the cards you liked played out. :frown: I am not saying such effects can't exist, but
Uxie is to basic based draw power as
Mewtwo EX is to beatsticks now! Both could be balanced in the right card pool, but
Mewtwo EX doesn't have and
Uxie didn't have such card pools.
Well, basic Pokemon EX right now bear little resemblance to basic Pokemon-ex back then as I understand it. Rayquaza DRV might've looked like one of those Pokemon-ex. Give him 20 more HP and he seems to be an appropriate analog, even.
Not entirely true; if you find a noteworthy Pokémon-ex from back then, it will likely resemble a Pokémon-EX from now. You brought up
Rayquaza... have you looked at an actual
Rayquaza ex? There were three different versions, and the good one (also the first) you can see
here.
Rayquaza from DRV does resemble older Pokémon-ex that saw less play, but you have it backwards:
subtract 20 HP from it. Old school Basic Pokémon-ex never exceeded 120 HP; odds are that
Rayquaza would clock in at 100, though 90 or 110 aren't out of the question. 120 probably is, based on a list of what did hit that mark.
Evolving Pokemon-EX, as I imagine them, would have HP amounts that sat around 160, maybe 170 if they are bulky, but their attack costs would be pretty much the same as Pokemon-EX making them just as difficult (easy?) to charge up. They wouldn't do more damage; let the big legendary Basics have their
niche of being just stupidly powerful. Instead, I'd have evolving Pokemon-EX carry good Abilities that made up for their lesser power. Things that made them more consistent. Synergy with the Discard Pile, abilities that benefit their owner upon being attacked, anything to improve the technical state of the game for their player. I dunno.
This wasn't how Evolved Pokémon-ex did things, however; they were to Basic Pokémon-ex as regular Evolutions were to regular Basic Pokémon; 25% more HP (roughly) and attacks that did more damage for the same cost, plus access to effects that weren't seen on their less Evolved brethren.
What plagues most Stage 2 Pokémon right now is a
stupid fast format. I know at times it seems painfully slow, but if you didn't get to enjoy the game in the days when going first was about using "set-up" attacks that built your deck and having a Stage 1 attacking for more than 30 points of damage
second turn was "broken" (and yes, it was; it was an example of the acceleration creep that led to what we have now), it is hard to appreciate exactly how "stupid fast" the game currently is.
Basic game mechanics like Evolution don't work with the game's current pace... and it is the pace that needs to go, not those old mechanics that help define Pokémon. Dial things back a few notches so that you have time to Evolve. Imagine if the fastest any Pokémon-EX could attack was on that player's second turn? While not perfect, just that one change in overall game function, how would it change things for Evolutions?
Now factor in lower Stages not being filler, mere stepping stones. Evolving Basic Pokémon you enjoyed opening with because even if they were quickly KOed, they were worth a Supporter or two in terms of set-up or disruption. Stage 1 Pokémon that were likewise worth at least the Item that a big, Basic Pokémon is running in it's stead
plus is a competent back-up attacker.
Hypnotoxic Laser just screws with everything =/
Not sure on that one; the format is already so screwy that sometimes these things actually help, but that's just speculation on my part.
tl;dr: Kayle and I are discussing complex things that aren't easy to summarize or simplify. If you can handle the length, feel free to weigh in. :biggrin:
