TCG rules change with release of X/Y...?

[losjackal]

PokéBeach reported that changes are coming to the TCG rules soon...taking effect on 11/8 for Japan, if not for the rest of the World too.

http://www.pokemon-card.com/howto/new-rule/index.html#anc15

That is the official Japanese Pokémon TCG Web site. Here is a picture of the rule changes through Google Translate:

http://i.imgur.com/HN38k05.png

PokeBeach summarized the changes as:

• The player who goes first cannot use an attack on their first turn.
• Pokemon Catcher will now require a coin flip.
• Since the new Professor Sycamore card has the exact same effect as Professor Juniper, you can’t play both cards in the same deck.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

I don't understand the need for making Prof. Sycamore have the same effect as Prof. Juniper. That to me is absolutely stupid.

I'm not sure why they would have made a rule change about not attacking on the first turn. I didn't know it was that big of a deal that it majorly affected the game to attack first. It is still better to go first, regardless, but that's definitely interesting.

While I'm not a fan of Pokemon Catcher being errata'd to be Pokemon Reversal, only because I've got a bunch I need to sell on eBay, as a player, I'm VERY happy about this. Pokemon Catcher is broken. It gives less skilled players the ability to beat the better players even when they shouldn't. I'm definitely very pleased with Pokemon Catcher being errata'd for playing purposes. I can't wait until they change that over here.

There was no reason to print it in the first place, and the fact is, the game becomes more skill based now, then before. I'm excited about this.

Drew

 

[losjackal]

I wanted my first post to just be the news. Here are my comments.

Yeah, I don't know why the gave Sycamore the same text, seems like a wasted opportunity. I don't know when we'd get Sycamore in our sets, but theoretically it keeps the game mechanic in the format for a bit longer. (I know we just got Juniper in Plasma Blast, so maybe Sycamore doesn't show up until May...)

I'm already starting to see people (newbies?) disillusioned by Catcher being nerfed. They believe the format requires Catcher. To those people, I say that Catcher empowered the current format of overpowered, heavy-hitting Basic EX's. Now decks can take their time to set up and utilize more evolutions. A guaranteed drag up of the bench is no longer part of the game.

First turn is interesting. Before Black and White, the rule going first was you can't play Trainers or Supporters. Meaning, the benefit was you can attach an energy, perform an attack, and evolve before your opponent. Now, you can play Trainers and Supporters, attach energy, and evolve before your opponent, but you can't attack. I understand attacks can help with set up, but they also can do strong damage. Strong damage results in the game ending sooner than it usually would. I'm all for this change if it gives a chance for both players to set up.

 

[bullados]

Just some ramblings about this...

Have the card designers really run out of ideas that quickly? I'd like to see more PONT, or maybe a TV Reporter (4/1), over another Juniper.

I REALLY don't like the Catcher nerf. Anybody else remember how dumb the Reversal format was? I do. Coin flips are bad card design. They reward the luckiest, rather than the best. While I do think that Catcher needed to be nerfed, I would have put a prize qualification on it. Or maybe force a discard or two. Maybe give it wording like Luxury Ball, where you could only use it once. Or even something interesting like PokeBlower+. But a coin flip is just, idk, I don't like it.

That's not the restriction I would have placed on turn 1 (I'm a bigger fan of TSS limitations or the Invisible Wall). Beach is a $200 card right now? If it isn't reprinted, it's going to be a $1000 card. Beach is now a necessity in every single deck regardless of strategy, even as a one-of with Skylas. That being said, if Beach is either reprinted or banned, I'm pretty OK with this. First turn needed a nerf badly. And while this isn't the nerf I like the most, it's good to see the 2nd player not get completely washed out of the game just for going second. There will be fewer donks out of this (though it is still possible to deal 30 damage turn 1), and that's a GOOD thing.

 

[treyh37]

yeah the prof sycamore thing is a waste, they should've made sycamore be a copy of one of the other professor cards at least like oak's new theory.

catcher change I'm glad of cause evo decks really suffered in BW series, kind of wish they'd made the change in the latest printing of the card though, it also greatly lowers its value and frees up deck space as its no longer a 4 of deck staple.

first turn, I'm ok with, it slows the game a bit which is good, it also somewhat lowers the use of cards like sableye, tornadus ex (plasma), call for family, evo attacks, while the first 2 I'm ok with, call for family, evo attacks take a big hit from this change.


still with these changes coming out the official rules for the next season (including things like league challenges) should be real soon (I'm thinking later today maybe).

 

[yoshi1001]

I would prefer they nerf catcher by letting the opponent choose which benched Pokemon to bring up (basically making it a Pokemon Circulator). No flip, but still a significant downgrade.

 

[Mekkah]

Pokemon Reversal is very different from this new Catcher, because Reversal was pretty much always paired with Junk Arm. A lucky player with four new age Catchers in their deck will do fine, but on average they might not be worth their auto-inclusion anymore. But if everyone keeps playing four Catchers without changing anything, then we're going to see a lot more games come down to that final Catcher flip. =( I'm hoping that the alternatives like Ninetales and Red Signal will prove to be more worth it over the long term.

New Professor is dumb, but at least they had the foresight to make playing 8 copies possible.

First turn rule change is huge, and shows they definitely realize what was going on. It's a bit of an unfortunate solution and I, too, would have preferred a limitation on damage rather than attacking. In addition, I don't really like how going first still lets you play everything that comes from your hand before your opponent. Being able to get the first evolutions and Energy attachments in place is just so big.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[Bigbowlr1037]

Based on the original professor oak. Now Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore, it seems that Pokemon may want the Professors to be a universal effect of Discard Hand and Draw 7. Maybe also creating a second card to differentiate professors(ie PONT or PETM)

 

[Otaku]

Wow... this is terrible. Of course, it is what several vocal people have asked for online... people that don't seem to understand how the game works. Well, unless you happen to enjoy what the changes will do to the game:

1) Flippymon - We've seen this in the past and the differences between "then" and "now" don't amount to enough to make it better and may make it worse. Pokémon Catcher made things better as compared with Pokémon Reversal. If you actually look at this game, you know Pokémon Catcher is if not perfectly balanced, well balanced. It only causes problems because the format is so fast that even first turn it sets up for a OHKO... and removing it or nerfing it doesn't get rid of all the problems from overpowered, overly fast Pokémon, nor will it stop them from printing mostly filler for the bulk of the set or solve the problems that plague Evolutions in general.

2) Set-up attacks which help pace the game are now even less useful. You can't use them first turn when your deck (in the current format) might not have had a good, offensive attack anyway. Now you can't use them at all first turn... meaning you'd have two turns worth of Ability and Trainer usage to do your set-up (if going first) and if you go second, your opponent will have had said two turns worth of set-up time to build their offense. It's lose-lose.

3) Why make Professor Sycamore identical to Professor Juniper and then forbid the two be used together? It is a problem of their own design! If they just want the default "professor" cards to always have the "discard hand and draw seven" effect, just call it "Professor" and issue errata for all relevant older cards. Doing that would still prevent players from using more than four and which Professor it is would become a matter of the card art (and irrelevant to game mechanics).

Are they even sure that having more than four Professor Juniper available will be a problem? If it is a concern, either:

a) Don't make Professor Sycamore possess an identical effect.
b) Make better supporters so that we don't have "room" for both in a winning deck.
c) Make some better "mill" cards - just four Professor Juniper and/or Professor Sycamore would shrink your deck by 28 cards. A deck has 46 cards after the player takes his or her opening draw. Reprint Imposter Professor Oak as a Supporter, have it discard the opponent's hand instead of shuffling it in, and leave in the effect of the opponent drawing seven cards... and yeah, people won't be able to afford to use a lot of "discard hand, draw seven" effects.
d) Change the deck out rule so that you lose anytime your deck has zero cards in it.

TL;DR: These are all bad changes, tolerable if they exist only because the-powers-that-be realize the BW card pool is horribly overpowered, as well as some of the bad decisions that came even before that... and this is a stop gap measure until we do a hard, emergency XY-On rotation once we have enough cards for it. The errata for Pokémon Catcher and removing the ability to attack at all first turn completely ignore that the real problem were the ridiculously overpowered Pokémon that make up the competitive format and turn even otherwise well designed cards into filler.

 

[Raen]

I am really, really baffled by all the complaints I'm seeing about the Catcher nerf. While flips suck, yes, you have to realize that the time when Reversal was actually a major PROBLEM for the game was ONLY when we had Junk Arm. Otherwise, it may be a little annoying, but most players will not play the card. It's not worth the space unless you have a bunch of shots at the flip. I very much like the change and think it will be very positive for the game. I can now cut back on Supporters and play Jirachi EX! Do you know how awesome that is?

The first turn thing is a good change, but not an ideal change. It's better than what we have, but it has a couple of issues. The most obvious issue is that is make Tropical Beach MUCH better, which really stinks for those of us who simply can't afford it. I'm a hardcore competitive players that spends a lot of money on this game, but I simply cannot justify purchasing 3 copies of a 150+ dollar card that will rotate this year. I don't have that kind of money, so being put at a disadvantage there really is rather stupid.

Still, while Beach is very good, at very least both players can use it, so after the first turn I guess it doesn't matter a lot. What really stinks is the loss of set-up attacks, but I guess we can just adjust to that. I, like many others, just wish we couldn't do damage T1, rather than not attack at all.

EDIT: I noticed something interesting: These rule changes are happening when the X and Y Beginning Set is released, NOT when the full base sets for X and Y come out. Does this mean we might get these changes before Cities when we get the X and Y Starter Decks, rather than in February?

 

[losjackal]

I'm a hardcore competitive players that spends a lot of money on this game, but I simply cannot justify purchasing 3 copies of a 150+ dollar card that will rotate this year. I don't have that kind of money, so being put at a disadvantage there really is rather stupid.

With all due respect, I have to share my response on this. Why would a competitive player wait this long to acquire Beaches? It's been legal for two years now. They were playable from Day 1 since there weren't any good stadiums back then. They dropped in price as other viable stadiums came out. (I know firsthand, as I traded two away at around a $70 valuation.) I really don't know what made it shoot up in value other than Blastoise, but yeah if someone literally missed the boat by not acquiring them then, I don't expect them to be willing to spend $150 now especially as you say it might rotate in a year.

Instead, my advice is to build decks without Beach. Or, if your opponent puts it in play, benefit from it afterwards. I'm quite sure there will be winning decklists that use those slots for other strategic things.

 

[Raen]

With all due respect, I have to share my response on this. Why would a competitive player wait this long to acquire Beaches? It's been legal for two years now. They were playable from Day 1 since there weren't any good stadiums back then. They dropped in price as other viable stadiums came out. (I know firsthand, as I traded two away at around a $70 valuation.) I really don't know what made it shoot up in value other than Blastoise, but yeah if someone literally missed the boat by not acquiring them then, I don't expect them to be willing to spend $150 now especially as you say it might rotate in a year.

Instead, my advice is to build decks without Beach. Or, if your opponent puts it in play, benefit from it afterwards. I'm quite sure there will be winning decklists that use those slots for other strategic things.

I never purchased Tropical Beaches because I felt like I always had options to play decks that did not use Tropical Beach, and I needed to spend that ~70 bucks on other cards I had to have to compete (Mewtwo EX comes to mind), and on travel expenses.

The more I consider the upcoming format (barring new cards being revealed that change this, of course), the more I think that the only decks that can truly compete are going to really require Tropical Beach. The 2 best non-beach options right now (Darkrai/Garbodor and Plasma) are both severely maimed by these rules changes. Darkrai/Garbodor is not very good when Blastoise has the room (since they likely wouldn't play Catcher) to play 3 Tool Scrapper, and Plasma not getting to attack going first hurts that deck a fair bit (not to mention Plasma is already much weaker with Drifblim and other common techs like Enhanced Hammer).

We will see, however. The new cards we will get in X & Y will really determine what happens with these rule changes. I could certainly see energy cards, abilities, or tools being released that let you draw cards at the expense of ending your turn, which would be a great replacement for set-up attacks.

 

[Regis_Neo]

While I think the catcher nerf is more welcomed than continuing with it still the same, I do lament that I wish I could have sold mine before prices will freefall...

The rule on goin first is a bit much, perhaps no supporters on t1 would've been more balancing, but guess we'll see.

The Juniper/Sycamore thing sounds odd, perhaps the intent is you can't play more than 4 of either card total in your deck? So you can have like 1 Sycamore and 3 Juniper or something? Odd why they would reprint a card word for word in the first place like that.

 

[Mystery Thing]

Many rejoicings from me about the Catcher nerf. I've always loved played evolution decks and Catcher made them simply not viable, with how relatively easy it is to pick off something with even 140 HP in one shot.

Meh at the first turn non-attacking. Depends what kind of stuff we see in XY. Although like a few others here, I too immediately had visions of Tropical Beach receiving a not insignificant price jump.

I really couldn't care less about the Juniper/Sycamore thing. All it shows is they like the mechanic and it will still be around when BW finishes rotating out. We've had basic card pool staples like Switch, Potion, and Pokémon Breeder/Rare Candy (even with the latter's tweaking back and forth) since the game started. What's so bad about there also being a "Discard your hand and draw 7" card pool staple card also?

 

[Otaku]

I am really, really baffled by all the complaints I'm seeing about the Catcher nerf.

Then you never understood a significant part of the game. This had been discussed since Pokémon Catcher debuted, and by players more skilled and articulate than myself.

While flips suck, yes, you have to realize that the time when Reversal was actually a major PROBLEM for the game was ONLY when we had Junk Arm. Otherwise, it may be a little annoying, but most players will not play the card. It's not worth the space unless you have a bunch of shots at the flip. I very much like the change and think it will be very positive for the game. I can now cut back on Supporters and play Jirachi EX! Do you know how awesome that is?

I wasn't very Active at this time, so I simply remember Junk Arm making it clear that Pokémon Reversal was a force, when before it was simply debated but still used (barring a suitable substitute).

For older formats where I was Active... debuted in Expedition. That means when it was introduced, Double Gust was still legal. As you keep going, that is what you're going to find; Pokémon Reversal doesn't see play when there is a more reliable alternative. This includes Pokémon based alternatives not limited only to"Gust" like effects, but sniping attacks and similar work-arounds.

You're also completely ignoring the real problem: fast, aggressive, effective attackers. Pokémon Catcher may still be useful when you can't OHKO what you forced Active, but it isn't broken. You take those beatsticks away from Pokémon Catcher, and it does its job: preventing the Bench-sitters (or retreating to the Bench with an injured attacker) from being overpowered. Nerfing Pokémon Catcher will help decks... that didn't need the help. This doesn't give us Evolving Pokémon worth Evolving from. This doesn't prevent Energy acceleration from allowing decks to come out swinging and swinging hard second turn.

 

[rt24]

I am very happy right now. Catcher nerf finally. This will hugely impact the meta game for the better imo. Now cards like Genesect and Ninetales will actually be used for their abilities. Bench sitters can be relatively safe!

I am happy about the nerf on first turn. Going first was too good in my opinion. There were many games where I simply lost or won due to going first or second. Very happy about this and this will slow down the game a lot which is nice. I am already getting a feel that set-up decks may return due to this and the catcher nerf. The only issue now is that beach is better and probably more necessary than ever. I really wish they'd print it in x&y or simply make some other consistency card so we aren't so reliant on beach. Price will skyrocket unless there's some consistency card that is better that is introduced in x&y.

Don't care about the Juniper/Sycamore thing at all.

Good stuff Pokemon!

 

[Otaku]

Many rejoicings from me about the Catcher nerf. I've always loved played evolution decks and Catcher made them simply not viable, with how relatively easy it is to pick off something with even 140 HP in one shot.

You do know there are successful decks built around Evolutions last format that still show promise now? That now instead of having a somewhat skillful match between the overpowered decks we currently "enjoy", it'll be the same thing but built around coin flips? I am sure the game will be so much more fun when Blastoise decks now require a lucky coin toss or alternate strategy to take out that Blastoise on the Bench while it hides behind a wall of big, Basic Pokémon.

 

[rt24]

You do know there are successful decks built around Evolutions last format that still show promise now? That now instead of having a somewhat skillful match between the overpowered decks we currently "enjoy", it'll be the same thing but built around coin flips? I am sure the game will be so much more fun when Blastoise decks now require a lucky coin toss or alternate strategy to take out that Blastoise on the Bench while it hides behind a wall of big, Basic Pokémon.

What makes you assume people will still play catcher? Did every deck play super scoop up? The effects are basically just as OP. Hardly any did, maybe a couple (blastoise keldeo in early variants is the only one that comes to mind in the recent past). It's the same concept with catcher. That plus Genesect and Ninetales are now good techs to replace your catcher. Being able to catcher isn't gone, it's just less immediately accessible + will require more room in deck, which allows some set-up decks to actually survive a turn or 2 without being catchered. Not being able to attack first also allows better set-up.

These changes are great imo.

 

[Mystery Thing]

You do know there are successful decks built around Evolutions last format that still show promise now? That now instead of having a somewhat skillful match between the overpowered decks we currently "enjoy", it'll be the same thing but built around coin flips? I am sure the game will be so much more fun when Blastoise decks now require a lucky coin toss or alternate strategy to take out that Blastoise on the Bench while it hides behind a wall of big, Basic Pokémon.

It goes both ways - with no water-fuelled sniper, now it's much harder for the Blastie player to pick off bench-dwelling Garbadors that massively cripple the deck.

 

[vaporeon]

I would much rather see Catcher with a cost of discarding 2 cards or a prize restriction cost rather then reprinting/errata of a coin flip. The point of Pokemon Catcher from the start was to not be Pokemon Reversal. I dont like it when powerful game ending effects are on cards that require coin flips. As for the professor, I dont like him. I was really hoping to be done with that effect and that every new gen would have a unique Professor.

The first turn attack rule is also bad because that would be you cant use setup attacks. This may be good as the player going first wont be so far ahead of the player going second so by turn 2, both players have around the same amount of setup. Of course the new cards need to be designed to work with these rules.