Absoltrainer
Active Member
Looks to me that the whole thing was a case of mis-communication
Technicalities.... Controvertial topic!!!
- Thread starter BANGINBOX
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I am saying that is the way I would like it to be played.ZAKtheGeek said:
The way I'm reading the exchange between SteveP and PokePop (and I haven't read the actual rule book, I'm taking SteveP's word for it at the moment) is, you cannot play basics from your original hand after a mulligan (only mulligan drawn basics may be played onto the bench after a mulligan has been declared). The only way to ensure this would be that the decision as to weather or not to play a mulligan drawn basic must be made immediately, before said card is placed into the hand with the rest of the cards. Correct me if I’m wrong.
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
I haven't read the rulebook either.
JohnnyBlaze
New Member
Well for the whole draw an extra card it should be resolved right after your opponent declares a mulligan and then after each mulligan. This dice/counter system can be opened up for all kinds of he said/ she said scenarios. The draws should occur after each mulligan. What advantage is there to wait and draw? It never says in the rulebook to wait and draw. That is insane draw right then and there.
Yeah, I agree with the potential for a he said / she said situation.JohnnyBlaze said:
Resolve things WHEN they happen. That's the easy way, though not the stategic way.
But, this whole situation becomes weird because of the ability to lay down more basics from the mulligan-drawn cards. There's a definate advantage in drawing ALL your mulligan cards before deciding which basics, if any, to play.
Furthermore, the rule change of when the coin flip occurs (at the end of setup instead of the beginning) makes it hard to have a definate sequence of setup actions because the starting player is yet undetermined. The detailed WOTC setup procedure was extremely helpful.
The dice counter situation was created to eliminate confusion about weather or not a mulligan card has been drawn. Players often forget or don't notice if/when their opponent has drawn a mulligan card because they are busy shuffling their hand back into their deck.JohnnyBlaze said:
Again, if you have to draw your card right away according to the rule book
dld4a said:
There is an advantage over not drawing all of your mulligan cards at once, but no player has an advantage over another, because all players have equal opportunity to build and design their deck so it won't give up a mulligan.SteveP said:
I think that the coin flip is fine where it is. I remember several changes causing confusion during the WOTC days. Prizes before or after mulligan draw has been flip flopping since about Rocket/Hero's days if I remember correctly.SteveP said:
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SteveP said:
Steve....
I can see your logic in your above references. However, With only 7 total basics in my deck (4 eevee, 3 pidgey) there was no intent on bending the rules to gain an advantage on my part. I was mearly placing this "counter" so it would be an easier way to keep track of all the mulligans. We already had enough issues up to that point. With a judge being called 3 different times. (ANGLE SHOOTING) I did not want to go thru a counting of my cards with a judge to ensure I did not cheat him.
I think you all are COMPLETELY missing the point here. This was not meant to disect the rules into our own interpretation. I posted this to bring to light some of the antics used to get cheap wins in this game.
If my opponent had an issue with what I was doing, He had plenty of oppritunities to express his disapproval. He could have done it when I explained what I was using the dice for, or after the second, third, or even the FOURTH mulligan. He chose not to. This was not about the rule, but the way he tried to gain an advantage by using this technicality. EVEN THOUGH HE AGREED TO IT!!!
If the police told you it was OK to go and rob a bank. You decide to rob the bank because it was OK. Then they arrest you.... It just wouldnt be right....
Argue about the rules all you want..... This was a clear case of ANGLE SHOOTING to gain an advantage.
Jimmy
Jimmy, I agreed with you in my original post. It was improper for your opponent to complain when he did (AFTER he finally drew a basic and you'd incremented your mulligan counter).
I don't know you well enough Jimmy to know your reasoning for using a mulligan counter, but I do think it's a better strategy to use one, however slight, than to individually draw mulligans and play mulligan basics (as I've explained above). If allowed, I think EVERYONE should adopt that procedure.
"Playing the odds" is a good Pokemon strategy. Trying to gain an advantage by knowingly using the rules against your opponent is gamesmanship. Did Jimmy's opponent "knowingly" use the rules against him? I doubt it. And, Jimmy's use of a mulligan counter is NOT illegal, but rather a good strategy technic, whether he intended it as such or not.
I don't know you well enough Jimmy to know your reasoning for using a mulligan counter, but I do think it's a better strategy to use one, however slight, than to individually draw mulligans and play mulligan basics (as I've explained above). If allowed, I think EVERYONE should adopt that procedure.
Aw, common on now. Mulligans happen, regardless of deck building. Waiting to draw all your mulligans at the end, THEN choosing which basics to play, if any, is called "playing the odds," something any serious Pokemon player should do.dld4a said:
"Playing the odds" is a good Pokemon strategy. Trying to gain an advantage by knowingly using the rules against your opponent is gamesmanship. Did Jimmy's opponent "knowingly" use the rules against him? I doubt it. And, Jimmy's use of a mulligan counter is NOT illegal, but rather a good strategy technic, whether he intended it as such or not.
Until I read this thread, I was never aware that anyone ever put dice on their deck to count mulligans. Never seen it done before. And honestly, it would probably freak me out just a little bit (if the first time I saw it was at Worlds) because I would be trying to figure out "why" they were doing it that way. It makes perfect sense now that I've heard it explained, and I see absolutely no problem with cheating and/or advantages if done properly. But I still believe the intent of the rules is for the player to draw (or choose not to) after each successive mulligan. Whatever "rocket scientist" devised this dice method really added an unnecessary and confusing step into an otherwise easy process.
GDog, it sounds like you had a bad experience, which is unfortunate -- but sometimes "stuff happens" (such as your things getting stolen) -- and no one else but the thief is responsible, or to blame. I can't even imagine holding this grudge for several months. ...over what?
It seems to me, the only thing Pokemon owes you -- the game itself, POP, or the other players -- is another chance to have fun, in the company of good people. If your primary motive is anything else, I'd recommend you take a look at why you bother playing in the first place.
When rules become "loopholes", don't we all lose?
GDog121TheChamp said:
GDog, it sounds like you had a bad experience, which is unfortunate -- but sometimes "stuff happens" (such as your things getting stolen) -- and no one else but the thief is responsible, or to blame. I can't even imagine holding this grudge for several months. ...over what?
It seems to me, the only thing Pokemon owes you -- the game itself, POP, or the other players -- is another chance to have fun, in the company of good people. If your primary motive is anything else, I'd recommend you take a look at why you bother playing in the first place.
When rules become "loopholes", don't we all lose?
SteveP said:
Steve,
You are trying to insist that there are such strategies to make???? Can you honestly tell me that I constructed my deck and altered my playing style to take advanantage of a "mulligan counter" ??? I see absolutely NO WAY POSSIBLE for this to give ANY player, at ANY particular event an ADVANTAGE!!!! How would this be planned for? You can not actually believe that this is going to happen in every game at every tournament. It just doesnt happen enough to create a stategy.
Suppose he only mulliganed once. Is there an advantage to using such counters? How was I to know that he was goiong to mulligan several times. I do use a die to keep track of mulligans, and will continue to do so. If I decide not to draw a card I will let my opponent know and not change the number. Did I mention that he was the only player who mulliganed several times against me the entire tournament, including the cut. I did actually have 2 other opponents that mulliganed, but only one card. I used the die then with NO issues.
So, While i can see your arguement when someone mulligans multiple times. I do NOT agree that a STRATEGY is created by use of a "counter". It just happens too randomly.
Jimmy
Yes I agree. I'm just saying that both players have the same odds of potentially using the mulligan counter "advantage" and so even if a player gets to draw multiple cards via mulligan draws the over all odds are equal.SteveP said:
Jimmy I bolded part of Steve's post for you.
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
No. No it doesn't. Just don't put anything down until you're sure you won't draw more.
I can see that you aren't INTENDING the mulligan counter to be used as a strategy. Obviously, it's not a reliably occuring strategy. All I'm saying is that when the situation arises, it's good strategy to draw ALL your mulligan cards before playing ANY mulligan basics. That's all.BANGINBOX said:
Don't get me wrong. I like the old WOTC way of resolving mulligans (draw ALL mulligan cards before deciding if you want to play more basics, THEN deciding which basic will be the active Pokemon). Anything that "potentially" increases strategy is good, IMO.
GinoLombardi21
New Member
Okay im back with a reply! I know you've all been waiting to see me post again!
Well honestly in this ruling. Heres what i think.
#1- I mulligan, & my opponent puts a counter near his deck and i keep mulligannin & He keeps moving the counter and hes not telling me what it is for. Honestly i could say i didnt know what it was there for so then its the judges call. (Nothing, Warning, Caution, or DQ)
#2- I mulligan, and my opponent tells me what he or she is doing with the counter if i called a judge and i agreed to it he or she can still draw the cards. Seeing i allowed him to do it i think it shouldnt effect what the rule is. This is what jimmy did he explained it and i thought it still contracted with the rules. It didnt so it was okay.
I have to say putting a counter near the deck and waiting to draw gives you actually more of options to look at it at. I mean you get to look at players near you, see what there playing, Relaxing before you start, being patient and chill.
But i would normally just draw seeing im always focused in a game and dont care what other players are playing, i can find out when i play them and i can relax out of the match. Thats just me but not all players are like everyone.
BTW! Jimmy i did not angle shoot! :nonono:
When i called for the mulligan i was actually looking for them to say you couldnt draw the cards.
The 2nd time i called them i was actually mad because they blew my first request off so i was kinda just trying to bust there PokeBalls.
The 3rd time was angle shoot! LMAO! Srry i couldnt win.:thumb:
~ I think Rule #1 and #2 should be enforced the way i stated everywhere!
Word Up!
Well honestly in this ruling. Heres what i think. #1- I mulligan, & my opponent puts a counter near his deck and i keep mulligannin & He keeps moving the counter and hes not telling me what it is for. Honestly i could say i didnt know what it was there for so then its the judges call. (Nothing, Warning, Caution, or DQ)
#2- I mulligan, and my opponent tells me what he or she is doing with the counter if i called a judge and i agreed to it he or she can still draw the cards. Seeing i allowed him to do it i think it shouldnt effect what the rule is. This is what jimmy did he explained it and i thought it still contracted with the rules. It didnt so it was okay.
I have to say putting a counter near the deck and waiting to draw gives you actually more of options to look at it at. I mean you get to look at players near you, see what there playing, Relaxing before you start, being patient and chill.
But i would normally just draw seeing im always focused in a game and dont care what other players are playing, i can find out when i play them and i can relax out of the match. Thats just me but not all players are like everyone.
BTW! Jimmy i did not angle shoot! :nonono:
When i called for the mulligan i was actually looking for them to say you couldnt draw the cards.
The 2nd time i called them i was actually mad because they blew my first request off so i was kinda just trying to bust there PokeBalls.
The 3rd time was angle shoot! LMAO! Srry i couldnt win.:thumb:
~ I think Rule #1 and #2 should be enforced the way i stated everywhere!
Word Up!
Naw Mike. There's a difference. If you have a basic and your opponent doesn't, you still need to lay out all your starting basics from your initial hand. If you want to lay out anymore basics after that, those basics MUST come from the mulligan cards you draw, NOT the intial hand, per the TC ruling.PokePop said:
Like Jimmy has been stating, that advantage is not something you can rely on, and generally only a very slight advantage when you draw all your mulligan cards, and play more mulligan basics, AFTER your opponent finally draws a basic.
I'm done with this topic. I haven't said much of anything new in my many posts here, AND I guess I'm not presenting my points well enough to be understood.
Talk amongst yourselves....
pringlemasterlol
New Member
not trueSteveP said:
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