The Case for EON Format

[TheGame]

This may be a bit simplistic but it seems to me the best format has got to be E-on at the moment.The trainers are a decks lifeblood and without enough decent drawing,healing,utility etc the decks strategy is seriously in peril.When there are enough EX-on sets then sure,change it but currently there are only two sets in EX-on(one in the UK ) and I cannot think that this is nearly enough of a card pool. Also the EX-on format would ( at the moment ) only encourage one or two archetypes,whereas the E-on format has a veritable shed load of archetypes (Gatr/Sect,Entei/Cargo,Kingdra centre,T tar/Unown D,Dark Gengar etc etc ) and I think that the diversity of strategies is one of the most important (and one of the most appealing aspects) of our game.

 

[dkates]

Agreed. And I've had the chance to try out E-on Modified. As someone who was previously 100% inexperienced with any Modified, I can tell you it's a very fun format! More than enough strategy to keep it interesting, which is unfortunately more than I can say for Unlimited, since there's maybe 4 archetypes in Unlimited, and all of them are all but impossible to beat by going rogue. Besides, it's nice to be able to play Stage 2's again.

 

[Orange Soda]

whereas the E-on format has a veritable shed load of archetypes (Gatr/Sect,Entei/Cargo,Kingdra centre,T tar/Unown D,Dark Gengar etc etc )

Psst. Those are Neon archetypes, not Eon.

 

[Dek]

TheGame has a real good point about this new modified format. Maybe when there are enough EX sets out there, then they can go change it to EX-on. Anyways, I would definatly go with E-on for now. When I (and many of you) was at the Sandstorm Prerelease, I opened up my boosters and I only got 3 trainers. 3 TRAINERS. I've seen people get only 1 trainer in their boosters and acutally played it. Then, we were given the card list, and It only has like 5 trainers in the card list. Then, what was real sad was that I didn't even need to put the trainers in my deck cuz I never got them when I drew a card.

IMO, we need E-on's birth to become reality or else Nintendo will loose many key people who played the game from the beginning.

 

[GymLeaderPhil]

WHOA: just how is Heidi Craig able to get her tourney "sanctioned", if no one else is able to at this time? What is going on here?

MMM well from my perspective favoritism, a lack of communication, a lack of consultation and general all round mis-management by PUI.

Any idea what the new reporting software looks like? I guess I better ask Heidi [/b]

The software is, from the beta version, a load of crap compaired with the DCI Reporter... Here are some comments I made in another topic dealing with the beta version of the program used at the Sandstorm Prereleases:

"Another thing I'd like to see is a new Tournament Program. That crappy beta version should have NEVER been used in a Primere Event! We had a script error at the end of the 11-14 tournament and Randy, our computer man, had to manually reenter ALL of the results for 11-14. We were lucky to have already finalized and printed the results from other age groups or they would have been lost too.

Another complaint about the software is that when printing rankings, the computer switches the Tie Breaker from percentages to decimals. So Billy might have a 64% but then next round see .34. That makes no sense.

And match slips! There were no match slips! For the love of all that is holy we need match slips! Do you know what we had to do? We had to take the pairings sheet and record wins/losses/ties on that sheet. Then we had to get both player's signatures next to their names on the right column of the sheet. Meanwhile Randy, the computer dude, had nothing to do the entire round. This resulted in longer periods of time in between rounds since Randy had no access to the results until the end of the tournament versus having individual results added mostly before thirty minutes ended."

As for Heidi having advanced knowledge of when sanctioning begins, it's most likely due to the fact that she is a Primere Tournament Organizer. Most of the Tournament Organizers and other important individuals in the community have been polled on what they would like to see or what they think about a finished product and how to improve it. Some individuals have had been given rough drafts of floor rules as far back as August to correct. Pokemon USA is striving to improve and get things correct through consulting with the community. Jimmer perked up in the "What's Modified v3?" topic, he was looking for input. We have to give some credit for the OP team for improving conditions whenever we complain about them. A list of European distributors went up after weeks of complaining. I'm not saying that critizism is a bad thing to do, in fact its really the only way to change things. But instead of bashing the company and individuals, why not complain about the issues?
-Phil

 

[SD PokeMom]

I think what raised my eyebrows and ire, and probably also ukpro's...is that if the premier organizers know when sanctioning is going to happen, FINE...especially if they are under some kind of NDA-type agreement.

But the 'oh I know something you don't know' type posts...like your letting 'slip' the fact that she will be having a SANCTIONED tourney next month when the rest of the current DCI TOs are still waiting to hear when they can even APPLY with POP...is what other people have problems with. Other people work quite hard for this game, also...and being obviously 'left out of the loop' when other more favoured people have an 'in'...and then to hear that SOME people can sanction already and others can't no matter how much they'd LIKE TO...is not making for a satisfied VOLUNTEER OP force.

I REALIZE POP is slammed and overworked, and have been, ever since the transition has been announced. I have no problems with that, and sympathize. But if they NEED to keep things under wraps for now, then for godssake KEEP them under wraps instead of allowing certain people to gloat publically over what they know and what they already have planned that the rest of us down at the grassroots level haven't even heard of...nor been able to apply for...yet.

JMHO,
'mom

 

[Broken Lizard]

GymLeaderPhil:

As a Master Professor, league leader and experienced TO, I'm very interested in partaking of any tidbits that you, Heidi or other elite insiders may dangle down to us.

But, since the rest of us are waiting our turn to get the scoop, I thought I'd like to have a discussion on the merits of the different format options.

Do you have any insights you could add that are relevant to the topic of this thread?

 

[NoPoke]

........she is a Primere Tournament Organizer. Most of the Tournament Organizers and other important individuals in the community have been polled.........
-Phil

Applauds GLPhill.. You obviously realise that that is exactly what we are saying too.

The conclusion that us on the outside must draw is that we are therefore NOT PREMIERE and NOT IMPORTANT. PUI certainly seem to be behaving as though that is their view, and frankly it stinks.


As to the European distributors... try contacting one of them... they have nothing to say on OP. They are having enough trouble just getting hold of product to sell.

Please mods... can you excise the relevent posts and stick them in another thread before this topic wanders off from a discussion about the merits of EON as a format.

 

[Turbo Blastoise]

Are you guys serious? The so-called Exon format barely has 15 trainers half of which really aren't that good or playable. Plus the fact that there is almost zero board control or disruption means it's that much harder to KO your opponent's Stage 2 or BBP that is on the bench. I realize that 'exon' is an eventuality but I think eon would serve us well at least as a transitional format perhaps for 7 or 8 months until we got enough of the Nintendo stuff to start having a format based on that. Personally, I don't feel like I've played that much with the eon format cards especially Skyridge(what 2 tournaments?) Come on guys, just say no to Exon(for now anyways).

 

[NoPoke]

Pokemon does not require TRAINERS.

Without the double gusts the game changes tempo..it becomes one where it is much more important that you have planned your response to your opponents response to your attack that you use after your opponent has attacked... The game becomes much more cat and Meowth.

You have to achieve deck consistancy by other means than the traditional Eeeeeeek and Elm. Wally and Rare Candy both make Evolutions viable against an onslaught of BBP.

My only concern is that recovery from a bad start is much harder without Cleffa and Elm. But it is harder for my opponent too. so its not as if I'm at at unfair disadvantage.


Exon with just R&S and Sandstrom most definately works. Its different true. But it is still viable. However I do not anticipate the introduction of EXON as a format untill after the release of Dragons. But EXON is undoubtedly comming, and probably sooner than many think. SO don't waste time waiting for a new format to be announced. Just start playing EON NOW.

 

[TheGame]

Oops...absolutely right,my archetypes that I listed were indeed Neon (blushes furiously ) but you got my basic point anyway! My vote would go for E-on with Ex-on coming in when there is a sufficient card pool. I feel you have got to have sufficient trainers for your deck to work properly.I'm not saying that decks should be 'trainer dominated', only that there should be enough for the basic strategy of the deck to be supported.

 

[League Leader Terry]

I'm playing EON right now myself, but since I hardly have any cards from the Wizards e-sets, my decks are mostly EX-ON already. In fact, in my main deck, the only Pokemon I'm using that's from those sets are Pikachu and Raichu from Expedition, which I plan on replacing with Pikachu from SS and Raichu Ex if I ever get one.

 

[frozen_mm]

EXon work? I doubt it. Since the trainers are so few, and too few counter cards for certain pokemon, most of the decks will be the same! I can see it now! Tourney's flooded with Blaziken/Delcatty Decks! That along with all the EX-pokemon. By including Expdition-Skyridge, the consrtucted decks are more diverse, making the game more interesting. As for strategy... what makes the need for startegy in EXon more than Eon? Infact, EXon will be based on luck. Just an argument.

>>Frozen_mm

 

[RaNd0m]

Frozen_mm, you're running your mouth about something you have no idea what you're talking about.

Blaziken/Delcatty isn't even viable in EX On at this point in time. We all thought it would be great at first, but it's way too slow. EX on takes a LOT more skill than most of you realize, and it's a great format. You have to plan for future turns more. EX On, compared to other formats we've played, is more of a "finish well rather than start well". Now, with the inclusion of Sandstorm, there are many viable decks. =\

~ RaNd0m

 

[Baboon]

Rand0m, I just need to seriously ask where all this added "strategy" comes from. Yes, due to (much)lesser Trainers, you have to plan better, but then again, you basically just draw and draw and draw, until you find what you need. Strategy, in my opinion for EX-on is to simply use all of the half-decent Trainers, and not lose.

What sets a great player aside from the normal ones is his ability to consider and creatively choose the cards he uses in a deck. With EX-on, in the present, there is no such thing. If you need a Basic to attack, a lot of the time you're stuck using an ex. If you need draw, you're either stuck with Birch or, uhh... Searching, yes, there is some searching. BUT, there is no means of any significant hand-changing. I'm not talking Elm, Copycat, Cleffa significant. I just mean *some*. One of the more strategic points in the game is deciding whether or not to trade your hand in for a new one. In EX-on, it's basically that you just keep your hand and hope to get what you need. Strategic? Not as much as E-on.

Not trying to make an enemy here, but I'm just not following this "a lot more strategy than we realize" idea... Sure, it might have more strategy than we realize, but that doesn't mean it has enough...

Also, just going to repeat once more so I don't appear to be a dense brick that refuses to give in. I do think EX-on is a future viable format. As of September 22nd, 2003, in my and many other people's opinions, it isn't.

 

[Otaku]

After checking with baboon, I realized that indeed, I should not trust my "evidence" from my own personal tests. Why? I ahve played about 10 "Nintendo-only" games... with about 6 against Baboon and four against someone else. >_< Baboon admitted that he hasn't played anyone lately, and I know he hasn't got any Sandstorm cards and does not wish to have it "spolied" for him (an understandable concept). However, I believe this several hampers him in debates, as the way the game is shaping up, decks will be able to set up their Pokemon very fast now. Since Trainers no longer do so much, they are no longer someting you worry about drawing mass quantities off. The way I believe it shoud more or less work no is something like this:

Players get hands. If hands are Pokemon rich, Pokemon are played. Several Pokemon will have some sort of searching or drawing ability, and you will use them to get more energy and/or Pokemon. What Trainers you do use are mostly for searching out said Pokemon and Energy. In a diverse enough deck, you can probably lower your hand fast enoguh for Birch to be a bit more useful. Since Pokemon and energy are what you need, Trainers are essentially "blanks" or "floating" Pokemon. Wally is like an extra evolution, for example.

 

[Sensei]

Frozen_mm, you're running your mouth about something you have no idea what you're talking about.

Random,please keep your replies more civil.I don`t want to hand out any bans to anyone,but if people can`t have a decent discussion about things,I won`t hesitate to hit the button on anyone.Disgreeing is one thing,shooting off your mouth is another.

Everyone else that went off topic and/or attacked Phil,I think I`ve about had it telling you guys to lay off the assaults on here(this goes for everyone).If you want to say something on here in rebuttal,then fine-keep it civil.If you want to lay into someone,then keep it to e-mail/aim and off the boards.

If anyone wants to talk about it,then e-mail me or one of the mods.Just don`t come to me and say "I didn`t do anything wrong".It won`t hold water.

Now,let`s continue the discussion on the case for Eon format.

`Sensei

 

[Baboon]

In self-defense here, not that Otaku's arguing, but how he worded it makes it sound like I didn't see any EX2. I have seen all the Trainers, and my argument is based on the EX1 and EX2 sets, not just EX1.

My argument is also footed on the fact that the game is shifting from being mostly dependant on Trainers to being Pokemon-dependant. Yes, change is good occasionally, but completely overhauling the Pokemon and dropping the Trainers' usefulness is a VERY significant change. It IS survivable, but not desirable yet.

Brings me to a quote that we've all heard:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I mean this in reference to E-on.
Another quote that seems to be representing some people:
"If it ain't broke, fix it until it is."
In time, the being broke will be fixed again, but right now, it's at the "was good, now not" stage.
I'll just leave it there.

[Edit: and when did this thread turn into "Why EX-on is good"? Also, to GET back on track, another huge argument for E-on is "why not". It hasn't been exhausted. People like it, and it allows for significant strategy.]

 

[dkates]

Thanks, Sensei. I will say that I can see a couple of up-and-coming archetypes. While E-on will not keep them from coming out anymore than Exxon would, it will delay, though probably not prevent, their coming into a fully dominant state, and make it a little easier to counter them. Also, there will be more archetypes out there. Trust me, no matter what the format is, archetypes will develop. However, the more different archetypes there are, the more variety there is in what decks are used. The more variety in what decks are used, the more diverse the metagame is. And, IMO, the more diverse the metagame, the higher the unpredictability, and therefore the fun, of the game. Like my professor in Game Theory once said, "Once you can fully analyze a game, it's no longer interesting." Obviously, even the smallest format of a TCG can't be fully analyzed, but you get the point.

 

[NoPoke]

well the UK is going EON from October 1st.

Since I have argued that Exon remains a possible choice for Nintendo you might ask why we elected to go EON in the UK.

The primary reason is that we haven't had a chance to play EON. THATS IT FOLKS. We want to play with the cards and not leave them in folders.

The other reasons for and against EON /EXON(RSON) just wern't as significant as the desire to play with the cards.


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This is my current take on EXON...

R&S only is not a good constructed format. But then this is no longer an option for an EXON format. You guys already have Sandstorm!

R&S + Sandstorm is a moderate (nearly good) constructed format. But it needs a Paris (intentional) Muligan to be better than just nearly good. heck, any constructed format can be improved with the Paris Muligan. (Imagine Mtg without its Paris Muligan *shudders* )

Allowing Elm (ie Best promos) into the mix improves the format greatly.

What Dragons will bring I don't know.. hopefully it will make EXON (RSON) a very good format.

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As to EON..

Looks like a great format...massive card pool. But a massive card pool that just may not see any play!

Why? We already have Scizor/Furret. VERY VERY STRONG. Will EON descend in Scizor/Furret/water vs anti-Scizor/Furret?

Its inevitable that it will for a while..and the card pool becomes largely irrelevant if nothing but scizor and anti-scizor see tournament play.

I have provisional Scizor and anti-scizor decks ready just for EON.

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[If you want to improve tournament play for Pokemon then join my campaign for the introduction of a Paris (intentional) Muligan. But thats in another thread and doesn't belong here ]