Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The point system is busted.

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jeffrey123

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Call this a rant if you please, but do not troll this thread or attempt to sidetrack it. I feel that this is an incredibly important topic that no other player has been bold enough to attempt addressing so I guess i'll be the one to do it...

Does it make sense that a player can lose over 50 points in ONE game? Since someone starts at 1600, you are only looking at 250 points a season. This means that 1/5 of that players points can be dumped in one game. But this isn't exactly what i'm referring to.

I'm talking about being turn 1'd, DONKED. We all know how it feels. Some idiot decides to play Uxie Donk and destroys everyones rating. No one enjoys being donked. You can be donked at any time during any tournament, and it can knock you out of cut, make you ineligable for cut, kill your rating, and just make you feel terrible.

The main reason why I am bringing this topic up is because many players hopes and dreams of making it to the TCG World Championships rely on one tournament; Nationals, and with the format not looking promising at all, we could be looking at many good players whiffing worlds due to donks. Can you imagine a player with an 1850 rating getting donked out of worlds due to a 1600 deciding to attend nationals and turn oneing him? Isn't that outrageous that one game can ruin your shot? But not even a game, a lucky T1.

Let's be realistic. Many (good) players aren't near 1750 right now. They will do solid or win regionals, and rely on Nats to make it to worlds. Doesn't this seem a little cruel?

So I present my solution;

Donks = +10 points to whoever donked, and no points lost to the player being T1'd. This would completely solve the issue IMO and keep the game fair in all aspects. Most players don't dig deep enough to see how a donk can ruin someone.

Discuss.
 
That makes sense, but how would this be kept track of? It seems to me it would just make more of a "he said, she said" situation if players begin picking up. This is still an excellent idea though, and I'd like this. I've lost lots of points to donks this year >.<
 
I 100% agree with you.
Although the most points you can lose is 32.
I've seen people who get their rating to below 1600, then, they play some donk deck like Uxie donk at nats and gain like 150 points.
 
You cant loose 50 points at nats. 32 Max and thats absourdly unrealistic. But I know what you mean, I lost to 1500 with my 1830 or something, still waiting to see how much ill loose. Hope the german tournaments get fixed soon.
 
You get donked. You loose. Oh well.

Someone made a good metagame prediction, as Uxiedonk isn't that great in the format today.
 
Yoshi- said:
You cant loose 50 points at nats. 32 Max and thats absourdly unrealistic. But I know what you mean, I lost to 1500 with my 1830 or something, still waiting to see how much ill loose. Hope the german tournaments get fixed soon.
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There should be a check box (T1 win).

espeon1 said:
That makes sense, but how would this be kept track of? It seems to me it would just make more of a "he said, she said" situation if players begin picking up. This is still an excellent idea though, and I'd like this. I've lost lots of points to donks this year >.<
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See above ^_~

Porii Sames said:
You get donked. You loose. Oh well.

Someone made a good metagame prediction, as Uxiedonk isn't that great in the format today.
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Uhm, well for any good player, points actually matter.
 
Porii Sames said:
You get donked. You loose. Oh well.

Someone made a good metagame prediction, as Uxiedonk isn't that great in the format today.
Click to expand...

[Edited]

Alex2K's point here, and he does have one, is that an invite to worlds should not be totally put under the flame just because some random guy that invests completely in (HERPDERP) donking an opponent before they can even move once.

Sadly, with the way this format could very well be moving, that "one random guy" with a donk-happy deck can transform into "many random guys" that will destroy many high-caliber players with their (insert overpowered basic pogeymon here) donk decks.

now that is just rude!


and the word is spelled 'LOSE'. dangit.
 
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You can only lose 32 points max per game in a K-32 event. And this thread seems like sour grapes to me. There are always tons of players who feel that they deserve a greater rating than they currently have.

The proposed solution destroys one of the most beautiful aspects of an ELO ranking system: the points in the system are always divisible by 1600. However many points you win in a game, someone else loses. This is how the ranking system self-regulates. Injecting extra points into the system throws it off balance.

There is no surefire way of determining player skill because Pokémon is inherently luck-based. The 40 top ranked players should not be the actual 40 most skilled players; you reach a point where differences in skill are subjective and very small. There has to be a luck-based way to make worlds.

Uxie donk is very easy to counter. Simply play Dialgachomp and you won't have to worry about it. Of course, doing so will put you at a disadvantage with regard to certain other decks in the format. That's how the metagame works. If you play Gyarados, for example, you deserve to be donked at least once... those 30 HP do mean something you know.
 
Hey, I've been donked before, I know what it;s like...and for me, I'm just like "whatever, lol. more time to talk with people".

Uxiedonk is not a great play in the format, at least where I am. Vilegar is everywhere, so if you play Uxiedonk, your record won't be too much better than mine.

Besides, I want to do my own little minirant here.

Pokemon has it set up so X number of players (for convenience, I'll say 40) get an invite to Worlds. No more, no less.

No matter WHAT HAPPENS, 40 people get an invite to Worlds. Now, if someone misses out on a trip to Worlds, then someone else GAINS a trip to Worlds.

Someone playing Uxiedonk could ruin 1 person's chance to Worlds...but someone else gets in.
 
Box of Fail said:
You can only lose 32 points max per game in a K-32 event. And this thread seems like sour grapes to me. There are always tons of players who feel that they deserve a greater rating than they currently have.

The proposed solution destroys one of the most beautiful aspects of an ELO ranking system: the points in the system are always divisible by 1600. However many points you win in a game, someone else loses. This is how the ranking system self-regulates. Injecting extra points into the system throws it off balance.

There is no surefire way of determining player skill because Pokémon is inherently luck-based. The 40 top ranked players should not be the actual 40 most skilled players; you reach a point where differences in skill are subjective and very small. There has to be a luck-based way to make worlds.

Uxie donk is very easy to counter. Simply play Dialgachomp and you won't have to worry about it. Of course, doing so will put you at a disadvantage with regard to certain other decks in the format. That's how the metagame works. If you play Gyarados, for example, you deserve to be donked at least once... those 30 HP do mean something you know.
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Deserves to get donked? Your point is now irrelevant.

Porii Sames said:
Hey, I've been donked before, I know what it;s like...and for me, I'm just like "whatever, lol. more time to talk with people".

Uxiedonk is not a great play in the format, at least where I am. Vilegar is everywhere, so if you play Uxiedonk, your record won't be too much better than mine.

Besides, I want to do my own little minirant here.

Pokemon has it set up so X number of players (for convenience, I'll say 40) get an invite to Worlds. No more, no less.

No matter WHAT HAPPENS, 40 people get an invite to Worlds. Now, if someone misses out on a trip to Worlds, then someone else GAINS a trip to Worlds.

Someone playing Uxiedonk could ruin 1 person's chance to Worlds...but someone else gets in.
Click to expand...

Not the point at all.

Player A's only intention is to donk. (1600 rating, AKA he has to do incredibly well but relistically he's just there to ruin peoples days and THERE WILL be people like this at nats I guarantee)
Player B has a rating of 1840 going into nats
Player A vs Player B results in Player A donking Player B
Goodnight sweet prince.
 
Someone better prepare a banlist to cut down on donks.

Seriously.

I'm calling Uxie LA, Sableye SF and Crobat G to be banned.
 
Not banned, more like limited.
I mean, most donk decks wouldn't be able to function properly if you could only use one uxie or two crobats.
 
Really good thread. I'm not sure if the 10 points would work because of elo needing everyone's rankings to always have an average of 1600, but elo itself is flawed for being a ranking system that doesn't take wins like donks into account. I'm not sure what an ideal situation is, or whether we should just wait it out and hope that during next season, this isn't as big a problem.
 
Jason said:
Someone better prepare a banlist to cut down on donks.

Seriously.

I'm calling Uxie LA, Sableye SF and Crobat G to be banned.
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Banlist is good, but probably only banning sableye, crobat G, and maybe a couple others because Uxie, being the only decent form of drawpower in the format, is needed. Also, it's donking abilities only really happen with multiple pluspowers and expert belt, along with Crobat Gs. You need the cards you can drop to place extra damage in order to donk nowadays, unless you have Sableye, which is broken IMO because 40 for 1 Dark that could get boosted up to 50 with a Special dark as well as always going first is just too good.
 
The ONLY time I believe that there should be a banlist/midseason rotation is if the new rules come out in a couple of months. Sableye will be everywhere, and don't say you have to start with Sableye cuz it's just like Uxie donk if you don't.

Donks right now are easily stopped imo.
 
Alex2k said:
Deserves to get donked? Your point is now irrelevant.
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Let's break down the basic count of a generic Gyarados deck:

4 Magikarp
3 Sableye
1 Smeargle
1 Unown Q
2 Uxie
1 Azelf
1 Crobat G
1 Combee
1 Regice
1 Mesprit

5x 30 HP
1x 50 HP
3x 60 HP
4x 70 HP
1x 80 HP
1x 90 HP

1/3 of the basics have 30 HP and you think that you should never be donked? You want to reap the rewards of playing a certain deck without dealing with its weaknesses. It's like a car that won't start; it doesn't matter how fast it would go if it did.
 
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I agree that something must be done with the system. The ELO system (as it is called) was intended for chess. In chess, a grand master will rarely ever lose to a person with a neutral score. Unless that person was a super genius, he would not win that game. Moreover, if that new player is really good, he will advance quickly without trouble to make it less dangerous for the grand master to play him. In Pokemon, our grand masters CAN lose to newer players (I beat a 1600s player due to his misplay on nevada states... and I'm highly rated). I've once lost to a theme deck in a tournament due to having a bad hand. As far as our ELO system, it cannot be changed to fix things. Having set point gains and losses rewards continuous play against bad players. If it doesn't matter if I beat somebody equally rated or if I beat somebody lowly rated, I will naturally migrate to places that are known to not have good players.

If players aren't near 1750 yet, they've missed most of the season to make points. We really have only 2 tournaments left (and the oh so insignificant battle roads). It isn't cruel that players have to earn their wins now. There is some smudge-room for all players every season. Most of us can afford a single bad tier-2 event. Doing well at cities increase that smudge-room.


Now then, what can be done with the ELO system? Well first of all, it highly encourages players to play VERY consistent decks if they wanna make worlds. Choosing inconsistent decks may win a few games, but in the long run, it will lose the player points. As far as changes, I can't see anything better to do. Changing it to reduce the severity of donks isn't a good idea as it would get awkward to change. I might support adding points for making cuts (+5 for making T16, +10 for making T8), but that would also be very odd as it would encourage players to go to smaller states to be sure that (if they run well), they will make top cut.

As far as the ELO system is, it is far from perfect for our game, but it is all we have right now. I cannot imagine a change that would be good for the game, but the current ELO system isn't amazing for the game either. Feel free to prove me wrong :)

A ban list or limited list would be horrible for the game. Limiting everything that donks is just awkward and pretty pointless as most of those cards have roles that don't involve donking (Sableye locks, Uxie draws, and Crobat is just good). Limiting donks should be done by making them harder to do or just discouraging players from doing so. Double Spiritomb start makes most donk decks auto-lose. Opening with a collector makes most donk decks auto-lose. A T1 spray more often than not makes the donk deck lose. Often (right now), going first means the donk deck isn't going to win easily. If they do win, the person who went second would have probably lost to most other decks. When I see the pairings and I am playing a donk deck, I assume that (at best) I have a 50% chance of winning. That isn't very good when I know that I am able to win 75% of my games with a deck like VileGar. Because of that, I am discouraged from playing donk decks. That is how it should be for most people.
 
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Alex2k said:
Call this a rant if you please, but do not troll this thread or attempt to sidetrack it. I feel that this is an incredibly important topic that no other player has been bold enough to attempt addressing so I guess i'll be the one to do it...

Does it make sense that a player can lose over 50 points in ONE game? Since someone starts at 1600, you are only looking at 250 points a season. This means that 1/5 of that players points can be dumped in one game. But this isn't exactly what i'm referring to.

I'm talking about being turn 2'd, DRAGON RUSHED. We all know how it feels. Some idiot decides to play Luxchomp and destroys everyones rating. No one enjoys being dragon rushed. You can be dragon rushed at any time during any tournament, and it can knock you out of cut, make you ineligable for cut, kill your rating, and just make you feel terrible.

The main reason why I am bringing this topic up is because many players hopes and dreams of making it to the TCG World Championships rely on one tournament; Nationals, and with the format not looking promising at all, we could be looking at many good players whiffing worlds due to dragon rush. Can you imagine a player with an 1850 rating getting dragon rushed out of worlds due to a 1600 deciding to attend nationals and turn twoing him? Isn't that outrageous that one game can ruin your shot? But not even a game, a lucky T2.

Let's be realistic. Many (good) players aren't near 1750 right now. They will do solid or win regionals, and rely on Nats to make it to worlds. Doesn't this seem a little cruel?

So I present my solution;

Dragon Rush = +10 points to whoever dragon rushed, and no points lost to the player being T2'd. This would completely solve the issue IMO and keep the game fair in all aspects. Most players don't dig deep enough to see how a dragon rush can ruin someone.

Discuss.
Click to expand...

Whether you like it or not donking is part of the metagame and is just one more thing you have to prepare for, use more basics or Call Energy or Sableye or whatever. Sometimes you just have unlucky games.
 
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