the tier thread

[Kalskini]

Kingdra is still very good
BUT
if your not Chuck or do not have chucks lists
dont play it

simple as that.
You cant win with a regualr list
it must CHUCKI-FIED,
you dont even need U'G in kingdra to beat gengar so yeaaaah.

VS Luxray: its beatable esp. if they play Infernape. But with the right list Luxray is just a push over

List is everything these days,
i know your wondering,

why kalskini why is it still good?
well simply,
Its been around since September.
There are VERY VERY consistent high damage output lists out there right now to fend off the rest of the format
consistent>something new

 

[jjkkl]

kingdra has at least a 70-30 matchup (in kingdra's favor) against gengar.
if the kingdra players is able to setup 2 G'd claydol (and drops no uxie, azelf, etc.) its over for gengar.

That's a pretty big 'if'. 2 G'd Claydol, with Kingdra, is much harder to set up without Uxie than a single Gengar and one Claydol, because that's all a Gengar player needs compared to a Kingdra player.

why?
because you are doing 40 a turn (assuming they have nidoqueen) and they are hitting for 30 a turn.

You're describing a perfect setup, without taking into account any Gengar disruptions such as Mesprit drops, Pitch Dark or Crobat donks. Rare Candy? Compare a Kingdra build to a Gengar build, which carries a similar trainer and supporter build, Kingdra doesn't have any of that stuff in its build.

Not much difference:
a good kingdra wil play super scoop up they wil probably flip 2 heads, and that are 2 prizes less for gengar.

But i have fainting spell:
Yeah but unless you are extremely lucky that are 2 pirzes a game

2 Super Scoop Up? Compared to 4 that Gengar can play? Compared to 4 that cannot be locked by Kingdra compared to the 2 that can be locked by Gastly? I can just retreat Gengar, send out Gastly, trainer lock a Kingdra player until they have enough trainers in their hands for me to OHKO a Kingdra, assuming that I haven't already locked them with Mesprit and killed their Claydol.

They will probably flip heads? That's a baseless argument.

BTW some people are teching blaziken instead of skuntank, and then you can be KO'd without your flip for fainting spell.
And some people will use nidoqueen in kingdra. wich will make your damage output 10 damage

Oh yeah, damage output at 10, whereas negated if poisoned. But you know the problem? It's a coin flip, again. Sure, my Gengar is burned, yeah, but there's nothing to guarantee that I'm going to get harmed by burn every single time. In the times that your burns DON'T work, Nidoqueen will heal Gengar and all the damage that's done by burn, perhaps even get rid of any existing damage from previous burns.

 

[Ignatious]

That's a pretty big 'if'. 2 G'd Claydol, with Kingdra, is much harder to set up without Uxie than a single Gengar and one Claydol, because that's all a Gengar player needs compared to a Kingdra player.

Small if. Roseanne for a Baltoy + Unown G. Luxury/Bebe for Claydol next turn, Cosmic, and begin attacking. Very easy. Very.

You're describing a perfect setup, without taking into account any Gengar disruptions such as Mesprit drops, Pitch Dark or Crobat donks. Rare Candy? Compare a Kingdra build to a Gengar build, which carries a similar trainer and supporter build, Kingdra doesn't have any of that stuff in its build.

No, an average set up. As said earlier, it's easy to get an Unown G on a Claydol. In most other games when facing a deck other than Gengar, Unown G finds its way onto Claydol quickly anyhow.

2 Super Scoop Up? Compared to 4 that Gengar can play? Compared to 4 that cannot be locked by Kingdra compared to the 2 that can be locked by Gastly? I can just retreat Gengar, send out Gastly, trainer lock a Kingdra player until they have enough trainers in their hands for me to OHKO a Kingdra, assuming that I haven't already locked them with Mesprit and killed their Claydol.

Dragon Pump for a prize, discarding two trainers. Now that wasn't very smart was it? =P

Oh yeah, damage output at 10, whereas negated if poisoned. But you know the problem? It's a coin flip, again. Sure, my Gengar is burned, yeah, but there's nothing to guarantee that I'm going to get harmed by burn every single time. In the times that your burns DON'T work, Nidoqueen will heal Gengar and all the damage that's done by burn, perhaps even get rid of any existing damage from previous burns.

Kingdra can afford to risk the Fainting Spell flips, as replacing Kingdras is so easy. Not to mention that Fainting Spell and maybe one sniped Uxie should be the only prizes Gengar pulls. Otherwise, Blaziken burns,or Skuntank Poisons, allowing for 2HKOs.

 

[jjkkl]

Small if. Roseanne for a Baltoy + Unown G. Luxury/Bebe for Claydol next turn, Cosmic, and begin attacking. Very easy. Very.

I still consider it an important 'if'. If you're going first, you can either Call Energy or just attach. If going second, then a Gengar player will have more than often Pitch Darked you. By third turn, in a comparison of speed decks, one has faced disruption while one has not. The matching in the early setup is still not even.

No, an average set up. As said earlier, it's easy to get an Unown G on a Claydol. In most game even when not playing Gengar Unown Guards Claydol early anyways.

What about Mesprit drops? Getting a Mesprit is just like you getting Unown G - just as easy. One Psychic Lock and in a game depending speed one turn counts.

Dragon Pump for a prize, discarding two trainers. Now that wasn't very smart was it? =P

I'll give you that. I'm used to discarding energy when I used to play Kingdra. However, that still isn't very reliable, cause even if you do discard trainers, that's two trainers in a regularly 30-35 trainers, supporter and stadium build.

Kingdra can afford to risk the Fainting Spell flips, as replacing Kingdras is so easy. Not to mention that Fainting Spell and maybe one sniped Uxie should be the only prizes Gengar pulls. Otherwise, Blaziken burns, and Skuntank Poisons. Get around both.

'Should be', but not 'will be'. Blaziken burns, but relies on a coin flip. Skuntank Poisons, but hits both. Besides, I'm talking about his argument on Super Scoop Up, not Fainting Spell. I avoid using Fainting Spell as an argument since it's unreliable at best. I know exactly how easy it is to replace Kingdra, but it's also equally easy to replace Gengar.

 

[Ignatious]

I still consider it an important 'if'. If you're going first, you can either Call Energy or just attach. If going second, then a Gengar player will have more than often Pitch Darked you. By third turn, in a comparison of speed decks, one has faced disruption while one has not. The matching in the early setup is still not even.

If going first, just attach. If going second, Pitch Dark doesn't stop Roseanne, Bebe, or BTS. Kingdra can afford to be slow against Gengar, even if it starts attacking as late as turn 3.

What about Mesprit drops? Getting a Mesprit is just like you getting Unown G - just as easy. One Psychic Lock and in a game depending speed one turn counts.

As said above, starting up late is fine, even sacrificing a horsea is manageable if it comes down to it.

I'll give you that. I'm used to discarding energy when I used to play Kingdra. However, that still isn't very reliable, cause even if you do discard trainers, that's two trainers in a regularly 30-35 trainers, supporter and stadium build.

There are many trainers that are no longer needed at late points in a game. Now each player can chose when to discard, but the point is that the option is there if it turns out to be beneficial.

 

[chriscobi634]

guys let's stop playing theorymon and let's play some Pokemon

 

[i like burdn of a day]

k, BRs r over, so heres the tier list that i'll probably stick by until after Nats.
Tier 1
1. GeChamp
2. PLOX Varients
3. Infernape E4 Varients
4. Gengar Varients

Tier 2
5. Legos
6. Machamp
7. Beedrill
8. T-Tar
9. Flygon
10. Kingdra

 

[yoyofsho16]

SERIOUSLY.

Why not test the match up yourselves repeatedly instead of post long in depth responses? GO AND TEST IT SO YOU HAVE CONCLUSIVE PROOF!

 

[jjkkl]

If going first, just attach. If going second, Pitch Dark doesn't stop Roseanne, Bebe, or BTS. Kingdra can afford to be slow against Gengar, even if it starts attacking as late as turn 3.

As said above, starting up late is fine, even sacrificing a horsea is manageable if it comes down to it.

There are many trainers that are no longer needed at late points in a game. Now each player can chose when to discard, but the point is that the option is there if it turns out to be beneficial.

Perhaps it might be me, but many Kingdra players I have played against don't get into the situation where what is stated helps them that much. However, I will stand by my claim - Kingdra versus Gengar is by no means a one sided matchup in any way whatsoever. I find them both to be uniformly 50-50.

SERIOUSLY.

Why not test the match up yourselves repeatedly instead of post long in depth responses? GO AND TEST IT SO YOU HAVE CONCLUSIVE PROOF!

guys let's stop playing theorymon and let's play some Pokemon

You might have forgotten that I did write an article on Gengar, and that I did have to playtest alot to be able to find the matchups as accurate as I could, and even more so difficult with Fainting seemingly skewing my results. What I have posted is from experience against a variety of different players of different playstyles, both online and personally, and I know people aren't fond of theorymon, but what I know is from experience, not what I believe to be correct.

 

[Ignatious]

SERIOUSLY.

Why not test the match up yourselves repeatedly instead of post long in depth responses? GO AND TEST IT SO YOU HAVE CONCLUSIVE PROOF!

Or I can do both. I DO test my match ups, what's the evil in discussing them?

 

[gallade]

Sir, you realize they go in the same deck together not in different dekcs right?

either; or. They can go in separate decks.

 

[Random Kid]

You might have forgotten that I did write an article on Gengar, and that I did have to playtest alot to be able to find the matchups as accurate as I could, and even more so difficult with Fainting seemingly skewing my results. What I have posted is from experience against a variety of different players of different playstyles, both online and personally, and I know people aren't fond of theorymon, but what I know is from experience, not what I believe to be correct.

Just putting this out there if any form of gengar ( Speed Gengar, Gengar - Nidoqueen, Ge-Champ ) wins the American nationals I will quit pokemon

 

[smacktack15]

Top Tier:

Kingdra
GenQueen
Infernape/Luxray
Dialga G

1.5 Tier:

Beedrill
Tyranitar
Machamp
SpeedGengar
GeChamp

2nd Tier:

GenCress
Flygon
Blazekin
Palkia G
PLOX
SP Bonanza (any SP deck that isn't mainstream)

3rd Tier:

Garchomp
AMU
Dusknoir
Abomasnow
Spread
Magnezone
Magmortar
Eeveelutions
Torterra
Blissey
Empoleon

4th Tier:

Everything else thats mediocre-bad

Rogue;

Anything that is played very little but, can do reasonably well. You can not place a rogue deck until it becomes widely played.

 

[Kalskini]

Top Tier:

Kingdra
GenQueen
Infernape/Luxray
Dialga G

1.5 Tier:

Beedrill
Tyranitar
Machamp
SpeedGengar
GeChamp

2nd Tier:

GenCress
Flygon
Blazekin
Palkia G
PLOX
SP Bonanza (any SP deck that isn't mainstream)

3rd Tier:

Garchomp
AMU
Dusknoir
Abomasnow
Spread
Magnezone
Magmortar
Eeveelutions
Torterra
Blissey
Empoleon

4th Tier:

Everything else thats mediocre-bad

Rogue;

Anything that is played very little but, can do reasonably well. You can not place a rogue deck until it becomes widely played.

right to the tee!

 

[Rogue Archetype]

Top Tier:

Rogue;

Anything that is played very little but, can do reasonably well. You can not place a rogue deck until it becomes widely played.

Isn't that an Oxymoron?

I almost sig'd that... :lol:

I LOVE building rogues because it takes my opponent about 15 mins to even figure out where I'm going with it... sometimes, by then, it's too late :smile:

I don't like seeing my opponent set up based on the reveal of the starting card. I want him/her misplaying and second-guessing because they don't what choices to make...

Example, play a Roseanne's... and you see them trying to decide whether or not to pull an unown G or an SP tech ... they just don't have enough information to make a solid decision because the entire strategy of my deck is completetly uncommon to anyone...

So, rogues don't fit into a tier because they are too specific. That is, they are individual ideas that are not commonly played. That's why they're rogue! They don't follow in-suit with common practice

 

[Brawler]

Tier 1:

Gengar
Flygon
Beedrill

Tier 1.5

SP's
Kingdra
Machamp
GeChamp
PLOX w/ Weavile

Tier 2 and lower is everything else.

 

[nnaann]

^ Flygon placed higher than SP decks?

 

[Brawler]

Have you ever played it/against it?

Yeah, SP's can be moved to Tier 1.

 

[nnaann]

^ Yes I have. It relies on the opponent needing Lv X's/ stadiums to win. And even decks which do rely on Lv X's to win like Luxape have good matchups. I've played against it alot and it's really not Top Tier material.

 

[FLCLFANMAN]

Guys, Tier 1 is obviously Mamoswine/Flygon :lol: JK

Flygon's only Tier 2? Thought it'd be 1.5 at least.