This man is my hero!

[the60746]

Where did this idea of refusing to win become the definition of Good Sportsmanship, I cant believe that I am the only one that feels this way. An example of Good Sportsmanship is when you make an illegal move, like saying an attack that you do not have the right amount of energy for, and then when your opponent does not catch it and discards the poke and brings up a benched and draws a card. Then you catch yourself and tell them,,, wait I could not do that attack as I am short one energy, please take your pokemon out of the discard pile, and you put your prize back.

That is good sportsmanship. Mistakes happen, but not allowing a mistake you make to benefit you is stopping yourself from making an illegal move.

Stopping your opponent form making a bad move is not good sportsmanship but, in all actuality is kind of an insult to the game as you obviously are not taking the game seriously. The vast majority of games when both players are of similar skill and with similar set up, hinge on the 1st player to make a misplay. Capitalizing on your opponents mistake is not bad sportsmanship. And it is going to be a dangerous thing if that idea gets accepted in the pokemon community at large. And in swiss loosing a game you could win on purpose is unfair to the other players you played that day because you hurt their tiebreaker and yo may cause them to unnecessarily cause them to miss the top cut.

(Hey Billy won the City championship but only because he is a poor sport, He and his opponent were in sudden death in the 3rd game, Billy could only do 20 damage with his, and his opponent had 20 hp left had a potion in his hand, that would have saved him and let him KO Billy next turn, but he accidentally said the attack taking Billy to only 10 hp left, after attaching the energy, then immediately after caught himself and said wait I was going to play my potion 1st. the judge looked at Billy, who is such a poor example of Spirit of the game, that he did not let the kid play the potion after he attacked.. Can you believe that!! Then Billy wins the next turn by doing 20 damage. What a poor sport Billy is. His parents should be ashamed of raising such a bad kid!!)


Really is that where we want to see the game headed, that players are afraid to win a game when their opponent makes a mistake. Tiger Woods dose not let his opponent to a do over when they miss a 3 inch putt doe he? Is Tiger a poor Sport? Last year in the NFL Cowboy vs Giants at then end of the game Dallas was very close to scoring the game winning touchdown, and keep their Superbowl hopes alive,
when the Dallas QB threw an interception into the endzone. Did the giant in an example of SOTG hand back the ball to Dallas, and say here you go lets do that down all over again as we all know that it was not your intention to throw the ball to the wrong player. Then Dallas repeats the down and scores a Touchdown!!! And the Cowboys go on to win the Superbowl being the only team to beat the Patriots last year" The Giants Coach is interviewed after the Superbowl, and he says... *maybe* (WE) could have won that match, but I don't care. At least I'm the first (Coach) player in the earth that saw (Dallas) Yamato misplaying

Yea he would keep his job!!

I have to agree 100% with him. too many times have i heard "ow well he didn't really win, his opponent misplayed and he didn't let him take it back. so he really sucks, just got lucky and won cause he was a jerk" thats ridiculous. We can't teach players that you are a jerk and didn't deserve your victory for not letting some1 take back a misplay and then winning because of it, thats just not right.

 

[cloud9]

Its nice to see some people actually enjoy the game wether they win or loose. I hate people who say "You play the game to win", the purpose of games is to have a good time. I hope more players act like Ian.

 

[Shukuen Shinobi]

That's truly an awesome display of spirit of the game. It's great to see some people really put their heart into the game like that. Great job Ian.

 

[Guille90]

That's why i called this guy to my team !
Way to go Ian, TBA is proud of you !

 

[Rocketman]

I called myself on[edit: possible] rigged dice after flipping 8 heads in a row my opponent was really surprised lol, they are like that's never happened before!

Only you would know if the dice were rigged.......
wow.......
If you want to bring up instances of good sotg, try to pick someone other than yourself.
And the mutant draft is really * not * a preimer event......

 

[LionheartEX]

About the OP: It's good to see there are more like-minded people out there. This Matash person really showed true spirit. He could have said no but didn't. I like that. I mean it was an immediate misplay and the opponent let him take it back.

 

[Red5bv06]

Really is that where we want to see the game headed, that players are afraid to win a game when their opponent makes a mistake. Tiger Woods dose not let his opponent to a do over when they miss a 3 inch putt doe he? Is Tiger a poor Sport? Last year in the NFL Cowboy vs Giants at then end of the game Dallas was very close to scoring the game winning touchdown, and keep their Superbowl hopes alive,
when the Dallas QB threw an interception into the endzone. Did the giant in an example of SOTG hand back the ball to Dallas, and say here you go lets do that down all over again as we all know that it was not your intention to throw the ball to the wrong player.

There is a big difference between MISplay and OUTplay. IMO, your two analogies are examples of the opponent simply being outplayed. I'd much rather win by ouplaying my opponent than winning on a misplay by my opponent.

 

[Whicker]

Where did this idea of refusing to win become the definition of Good Sportsmanship, I cant believe that I am the only one that feels this way. An example of Good Sportsmanship is when you make an illegal move, like saying an attack that you do not have the right amount of energy for, and then when your opponent does not catch it and discards the poke and brings up a benched and draws a card. Then you catch yourself and tell them,,, wait I could not do that attack as I am short one energy, please take your pokemon out of the discard pile, and you put your prize back.

That is good sportsmanship. Mistakes happen, but not allowing a mistake you make to benefit you is stopping yourself from making an illegal move.

Stopping your opponent form making a bad move is not good sportsmanship but, in all actuality is kind of an insult to the game as you obviously are not taking the game seriously. The vast majority of games when both players are of similar skill and with similar set up, hinge on the 1st player to make a misplay. Capitalizing on your opponents mistake is not bad sportsmanship. And it is going to be a dangerous thing if that idea gets accepted in the pokemon community at large. And in swiss loosing a game you could win on purpose is unfair to the other players you played that day because you hurt their tiebreaker and yo may cause them to unnecessarily cause them to miss the top cut.

(Hey Billy won the City championship but only because he is a poor sport, He and his opponent were in sudden death in the 3rd game, Billy could only do 20 damage with his, and his opponent had 20 hp left had a potion in his hand, that would have saved him and let him KO Billy next turn, but he accidentally said the attack taking Billy to only 10 hp left, after attaching the energy, then immediately after caught himself and said wait I was going to play my potion 1st. the judge looked at Billy, who is such a poor example of Spirit of the game, that he did not let the kid play the potion after he attacked.. Can you believe that!! Then Billy wins the next turn by doing 20 damage. What a poor sport Billy is. His parents should be ashamed of raising such a bad kid!!)


Really is that where we want to see the game headed, that players are afraid to win a game when their opponent makes a mistake. Tiger Woods dose not let his opponent to a do over when they miss a 3 inch putt doe he? Is Tiger a poor Sport? Last year in the NFL Cowboy vs Giants at then end of the game Dallas was very close to scoring the game winning touchdown, and keep their Superbowl hopes alive,
when the Dallas QB threw an interception into the endzone. Did the giant in an example of SOTG hand back the ball to Dallas, and say here you go lets do that down all over again as we all know that it was not your intention to throw the ball to the wrong player. Then Dallas repeats the down and scores a Touchdown!!! And the Cowboys go on to win the Superbowl being the only team to beat the Patriots last year" The Giants Coach is interviewed after the Superbowl, and he says... *maybe* (WE) could have won that match, but I don't care. At least I'm the first (Coach) player in the earth that saw (Dallas) Yamato misplaying

Yea he would keep his job!!

You're not the only one, Jand. I agree with you.

I've been playing this game seriously for about four years now, and in all of those four years I have never pulled a card out of my deck that I didn't mean to. All it takes is a little focus for a few seconds. And I say that if someone loses focus for long enough to make a mistake, then that, in my opinion, is just too bad. Part of being a good player is being able to retain focus throughout the match, because that's how you're able to play all of your cards correctly. I would absolutely love it if I could take back every time I forgot to evolve, play a basic, or use a power because I became unfocused on the game, but no one's letting me do it... as they shouldn't. If those mistakes cause me to fall behind in the game, then I guess I probably shouldn't have made that mistake in the first place, eh? It's the same as this golf analogy in the quote above: if that one missed putt causes you to fall behind, then I guess you shouldn't have missed it. If you can't make it, then you didn't play as well as your opponent, and you lose. It's that simple.

 

[davidy321]

A player who would let the take back occur has good reason to, but the opposite is also true. Likewise I don't think opinions will be changed in this thread.

 

[GodTrainer]

Ok.

This thread has shown me 1 thing. Some people get the idea of SOTG and some never will.


all the people against what this guy did = people who count on opponent misplays to win
all the people who recognize what a great integrity move this was = people who can win with skill.


will those statements probably upset people? YES do I care NO

I'm sick and tired of MTG type mentality leaking into Pokemon, and the obnoxious, obtrusive, arrogant, disgraceful, distasteful attitudes of some of the "win at all costs" type people.


hey, if you think what he did was sooooo bad, go ask Drew, a TOP level player, if he is appreciate of what this man did for him.


you guys have to realize that in the end, things balance out. Give a little take a little, golden rule is no joke! Next time Drew plays someone, and they make a mistake maybe he will think back on this and let his opponent take it back. SOTG can catch on if we all try a bit.


this might be a bit rant on my part (it could have been more) however its late at night, I'm tired and I'm shocked at how many people missed the point of this thread and I had to speak up.

Mods, you can lock this if you wish, the point has been made. Those that will gain any sort of appreciation from this have already seen it, and now it will probably (sadly) just turn into a flame war.

to modify a saying....

Prizes corrupt...Ultimate prizes corrupt ultimately

 

[Jaeger]

Yep thats Ian. Great Guy.

 

[JandPDS]

Ok.

This thread has shown me 1 thing. Some people get the idea of SOTG and some never will.


all the people against what this guy did = people who count on opponent misplays to win
all the people who recognize what a great integrity move this was = people who can win with skill.


will those statements probably upset people? YES do I care NO

I'm sick and tired of MTG type mentality leaking into Pokemon, and the obnoxious, obtrusive, arrogant, disgraceful, distasteful attitudes of some of the "win at all costs" type people.


hey, if you think what he did was sooooo bad, go ask Drew, a TOP level player, if he is appreciate of what this man did for him.


you guys have to realize that in the end, things balance out. Give a little take a little, golden rule is no joke! Next time Drew plays someone, and they make a mistake maybe he will think back on this and let his opponent take it back. SOTG can catch on if we all try a bit.


this might be a bit rant on my part (it could have been more) however its late at night, I'm tired and I'm shocked at how many people missed the point of this thread and I had to speak up.

Mods, you can lock this if you wish, the point has been made. Those that will gain any sort of appreciation from this have already seen it, and now it will probably (sadly) just turn into a flame war.

to modify a saying....

Prizes corrupt...Ultimate prizes corrupt ultimately

So you are telling me that Ross C, one of the top pokemon players in the history of the Game, is a Poor Example of SOTG, because he wins when players make mistakes, I am sorry I do not accept that inane conclusion. Loosing a game on purpose that you had won does not make you noble, it makes you a sad expample and is an insult to the game of Pokemon. Good Sportsmanship is not just about loosing well as I tell my daughter, but it is about winning with a good attitude also. Can you imagine a Grand Master in chess allowing an opponent to take back a mistake after removing their hand from the Chess Piece. "Umm sir that move has left your King dangerously exposed, if you dont reconsider and change that move, I will be able to Check-mate you next turn" No you do not ever get to Grand Master status in Chess if you allow your opponents to take back mistakes that they make in the game.

This SOTG debate is not about good or poor sportsmanship but about rewarding Mediocrity. And I can say this as a player who is the prime definition of being a Mediocre Pokemon player. Winning at all costs is not the way to go, but going out of your way to loose a game that you should win is no reason to feel proud of yourself. If you feel guilty about wining a game of Pokemon when your opponent makes a misplay, then I do not think that this is the game for you, maybe a less competitive, less skill based games would be more your style.

Pokemon is a mix of Skill and luck. Chess is a game of pure skill, and Chutes and Ladders is a game of pure luck. There are no misplays in Chutes and Ladders as the dice roll determines the entire outcome. Chess is just skill as there are no randomness to the game and the best player at that time wins. Usually in an even chess match it is the 1st one to make a mistake that looses the match.

Pokemon is so fun because it is a combination of both skill and luck, Luck factors in your starting hand and prizes, plus weakness or resistance to your opponents deck, along with randomness of coin flips on certain attacks and trainer cards. And skill in terms of deckbuilding and making smart strategic gameplay decisions. Once the luck factor has worked itself out and all things are even interms of setup,
most games are decided on who makes the most correct strategic decisions in game play, and the fewest mistakes in execution. If a mistake causes you to loose, well that should be expected.

I have never made a mistake in Pokemon and said... my opponent was horrible, how dare they beat me just because I forgot to place an energy down on my bench before I attacked!! No when I misplay I tell myself that I made a stupid mistake and next game I need to slow down and play more carefully. IF you want to take mistakes out of Pokemon then you will have to have all decks programmed into computers and let them play the matches out, but that would be a very boring tournament to participate in.

I have lost two City Championships and one Battle Road title due to making a dumb misplay that cost me the game. Do I go around saying "My opponents did not deserve to win those championships because they were mean and did not let me take back a mistake," of course I do not, nor should you.

 

[GodTrainer]

So you are telling me that Ross C, one of the top pokemon players in the history of the Game, is a Poor Example of SOTG, because he wins when players make mistakes, I am sorry I do not accept that inane conclusion. Loosing a game on purpose that you had won does not make you noble, it makes you a sad expample and is an insult to the game of Pokemon. Good Sportsmanship is not just about loosing well as I tell my daughter, but it is about winning with a good attitude also. Can you imagine a Grand Master in chess allowing an opponent to take back a mistake after removing their hand from the Chess Piece. "Umm sir that move has left your King dangerously exposed, if you dont reconsider and change that move, I will be able to Check-mate you next turn" No you do not ever get to Grand Master status in Chess if you allow your opponents to take back mistakes that they make in the game.

This SOTG debate is not about good or poor sportsmanship but about rewarding Mediocrity. And I can say this as a player who is the prime definition of being a Mediocre Pokemon player. Winning at all costs is not the way to go, but going out of your way to loose a game that you should win is no reason to feel proud of yourself. If you feel guilty about wining a game of Pokemon when your opponent makes a misplay, then I do not think that this is the game for you, maybe a less competitive, less skill based games would be more your style.

Pokemon is a mix of Skill and luck. Chess is a game of pure skill, and Chutes and Ladders is a game of pure luck. There are no misplays in Chutes and Ladders as the dice roll determines the entire outcome. Chess is just skill as there are no randomness to the game and the best player at that time wins. Usually in an even chess match it is the 1st one to make a mistake that looses the match.

Pokemon is so fun because it is a combination of both skill and luck, Luck factors in your starting hand and prizes, plus weakness or resistance to your opponents deck, along with randomness of coin flips on certain attacks and trainer cards. And skill in terms of deckbuilding and making smart strategic gameplay decisions. Once the luck factor has worked itself out and all things are even interms of setup,
most games are decided on who makes the most correct strategic decisions in game play, and the fewest mistakes in execution. If a mistake causes you to loose, well that should be expected.

I have never made a mistake in Pokemon and said... my opponent was horrible, who dare they beat me just because I forgot to place an energy down on my bench before I attacked!! No when I misplay I tell myself that I made a stupid mistake and next game I need to slow down and play more carefully. IF you want to take mistakes out of Pokemon then you will have to have all decks programmed into computers and let them play the matches out, but that would be a very boring tournament to participate in.

I have lost two City Championships and one Battle Road title due to making a dumb misplay that cost me the game. Do I go around saying "My opponents did not deserve to win those championships because they were mean and did not let me take back a mistake," of course I do not, nor should you.

I refuse to write an answer as long as this one (even though i really want to pick apart your argument), trying to convince you you are wrong, as i see that will never happen.

I'm just glad the majority of the people don't play like you. Otherwise we could just rename this game MTG: Junior Edition.

 

[JandPDS]

I refuse to write an answer as long as this one (even though i really want to pick apart your argument), trying to convince you you are wrong, as i see that will never happen.

I'm just glad the majority of the people don't play like you. Otherwise we could just rename this game MTG: Junior Edition.

What does the Magic TCG have anything do with this discussion? The reason you are not rebutting my post is not because you do not wish to do so but because you are unable to do so, or to pick the argument apart as you say.

There is nothing honorable or sporting about not doing your very best when participating in a Tournament. This game is a competition and if you refuse to take it seriously then dont partake in it. I stress to my daughter that it is not important if she win or looses the game as long as she plays her best and has fun. It is important to be able to both loose graciously as well as win graciously. Loosing on purpose though is not acceptable in a tournament. I know of players who build purposely poor decks for prerelease's (like only 4 basic pokemon and 36 energy), and I do not agree with doing this as it robs a competitive game away from whoever they are playing against. When one player is not really trying to win the game, it ruins the match and does not make it fun to play against that player. If you do not feel like playing this game seriously then why are you playing it at all?

 

[Whicker]

Ok.

This thread has shown me 1 thing. Some people get the idea of SOTG and some never will.


all the people against what this guy did = people who count on opponent misplays to win
all the people who recognize what a great integrity move this was = people who can win with skill.


will those statements probably upset people? YES do I care NO

I'm sick and tired of MTG type mentality leaking into Pokemon, and the obnoxious, obtrusive, arrogant, disgraceful, distasteful attitudes of some of the "win at all costs" type people.


hey, if you think what he did was sooooo bad, go ask Drew, a TOP level player, if he is appreciate of what this man did for him.


you guys have to realize that in the end, things balance out. Give a little take a little, golden rule is no joke! Next time Drew plays someone, and they make a mistake maybe he will think back on this and let his opponent take it back. SOTG can catch on if we all try a bit.


this might be a bit rant on my part (it could have been more) however its late at night, I'm tired and I'm shocked at how many people missed the point of this thread and I had to speak up.

Mods, you can lock this if you wish, the point has been made. Those that will gain any sort of appreciation from this have already seen it, and now it will probably (sadly) just turn into a flame war.

to modify a saying....

Prizes corrupt...Ultimate prizes corrupt ultimately

I would type out a response that points out every ridiculous assumption and blind insult that you just made, but I guess it would be too long for you.

To put everything that I would say simply: you have absolutely no idea what Jand is getting at. I would suggest to you to reread all of his posts in this thread and reevaluate his intention, but I can see that you will never be convinced otherwise, so why bother?

 

[EeveeLover]

Lets try to keep the attitudes and possible flames / attacks out of the post.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, apparently not everyone shares the same opinion. That is the nice thing about the human race. We can all think for ourselves.

 

[mew48]

SOTG is such a good thing to have these days, I wish more people would practice it.

 

[JandPDS]

SOTG is such a good thing to have these days, I wish more people would practice it.

Yes I agree completely with that statement.

SOTG = always playing your best and being a good sport about it in victory or defeat

STOG does not = playing halfheartedly and not really caring about the outcome of the match at all.

SOTG does = when your opponent attacks your 80 HP pokemon for 60 damage, and fails to notice that you are weak to the attack, After they say 60 damage and dont draw a prize, you stop them and correct the calculation and say "No I am +20 weak, it does 80 damage and I am Knocked out, you get a prize."

SOTG does not = loosing a game on purpose to a friend (I.E. teammate) in the last round of swiss play because he has a better tiebreaker score then you and if you win then you might both miss the top cut. Or you loose on purpose because you feel that his deck will have a better chance in the top cut Meta game of that tournament then yours will.

SOTG does = late in the game when you know that there is not much time remaining in the round and you and your opponent each have 3 prize cards remaining. Then as you are searching your discard pile, you happen to notice that there have been 4 of you pokemon KO'd during that game. Then you point this discrepancy out to you opponent and mention that they must have forgot to draw a prize once during the match, and have them draw one.

SOTG does not = brining multiple decks with you to a tournament. When registraton begings, you start snooping around to see what everyone else in your age division is playing, then registering the deck that you feel will have the most favorable matchups that day at the last minute.

SOTG does = lending a player in your own age division a card that they need to make their deck work better, even when that card makes that persons deck a much harder matchup for the deck that you are playing that day.

SOTG does not = intentionally slowplaying your opponent at the end of the game when you are clinging to a lead and they have the obvious power advantage over you on the table, so that you can win on time

SOTG does = when playing a brand new player in a tournament, taking the time to explain the rules of Pokemon to them. Remind them of their options when their pokemon are affected by a special conditions, "No you do not have to attack when you are confused, you can retreat, evolve or pass your attack that turn" And explain other game mechanic procedures. "Yes you can play both a Roseanne and a Dark ball on the same turn"

SOTG does not = when playing a brand new player in a tournament, rushing your opponent to finish their turn. Then quick playing your turn so fast that they are not able to follow what you are doing. Or not explaining what you are doing or why you are doing it during your turn so that your Opponent becomes overwhelmed, confused and looses interest. (I.E. play Baltoy, rare candy Claydoll, just point at Claydol and put at card from your hand under your deck, draw 3 quick cards all at once. Throw down a switch, level up. Retreat bring up a 3rd pokemon attatch an energy to it and and attack all in 10 seconds without hardly saying a word.)
Or you are so uninspired with your competitions skill level and abilities, that you spend more time interacting with the clock on the wall or your new deck box, then you do communicating with your opponent during the match

 

[GodTrainer]

Yes I agree completely with that statement.

SOTG = always playing your best and being a good sport about it in victory or defeat

agreed.:thumb:

STOG does not = playing halfheartedly and not really caring about the outcome of the match at all.

there is such a thing as playing for fun. Winning does not HAVE to be the End-All-Be-All for EVERYONE. And winning should NEVER get in the way of SOTG IMHO

SOTG does = when your opponent attacks your 80 HP pokemon for 60 damage, and fails to notice that you are weak to the attack, After they say 60 damage and dont draw a prize, you stop them and correct the calculation and say "No I am +20 weak, it does 80 damage and I am Knocked out, you get a prize."

correction sir, this is not a "optional" thing, this has to be done. It has NOTHING to do with SOTG, and if i were to find out you; as this guys opponent noticed the weakness and decided to ignore it at 1 of my tournaments, lets just say I would not put up with it.

Weakness/resistance is a MANDATORY game mechanic that requires BOTH players to be aware of, and yes, BOTH players can be penalized for forgetting to apply it.

SOTG does not = loosing a game on purpose to a friend (I.E. teammate) in the last round of swiss play because he has a better tiebreaker score then you and if you win then you might both miss the top cut. Or you loose on purpose because you feel that his deck will have a better chance in the top cut Meta game of that tournament then yours will.

agreed:thumb:

SOTG does = late in the game when you know that there is not much time remaining in the round and you and your opponent each have 3 prize cards remaining. Then as you are searching your discard pile, you happen to notice that there have been 4 of you pokemon KO'd during that game. Then you point this discrepancy out to you opponent and mention that they must have forgot to draw a prize once during the match, and have them draw one.

again, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with SOTG. Why do you think you are being "nice" or "a good guy" for doing a mandatory game action?

See point above about floor rules.

SOTG does not = brining multiple decks with you to a tournament. When registraton begings, you start snooping around to see what everyone else in your age division is playing, then registering the deck that you feel will have the most favorable matchups that day at the last minute.

agreed:thumb:

but on the other hand, I think Pokemon should have side board, but that's a separate issue.

SOTG does = lending a player in your own age division a card that they need to make their deck work better, even when that card makes that persons deck a much harder matchup for the deck that you are playing that day.

Agreed:thumb:

SOTG does not = intentionally slowplaying your opponent at the end of the game when you are clinging to a lead and they have the obvious power advantage over you on the table, so that you can win on time

Agreed:thumb:

SOTG does = when playing a brand new player in a tournament, taking the time to explain the rules of Pokemon to them. Remind them of their options when their pokemon are affected by a special conditions, "No you do not have to attack when you are confused, you can retreat, evolve or pass your attack that turn" And explain other game mechanic procedures. "Yes you can play both a Roseanne and a Dark ball on the same turn"

Agreed:thumb:

SOTG does not = when playing a brand new player in a tournament, rushing your opponent to finish their turn. Then quick playing your turn so fast that they are not able to follow what you are doing. Or not explaining what you are doing or why you are doing it during your turn so that your Opponent becomes overwhelmed, confused and looses interest. (I.E. play Baltoy, rare candy Claydoll, just point at Claydol and put at card from your hand under your deck, draw 3 quick cards all at once. Throw down a switch, level up. Retreat bring up a 3rd pokemon attatch an energy to it and and attack all in 10 seconds without hardly saying a word.)
Or you are so uninspired with your competitions skill level and abilities, that you spend more time interacting with the clock on the wall or your new deck box, then you do communicating with your opponent during the match

Absolutely Agreed:thumb:


On those two points at the beginning, I think it would do you some good to review the Compendium section for general game play and mandatory actions, as well as the tournament floor rules and penitently guidelines, just a suggestion, i wouldn't want you to be surprised if/when you draw a penalty for "not" speaking up about missed prizes.:wink:

 

[Jaeger]

Top 8 Nats-07
Top 16 Nats-08
Top 32 Worlds-08

JandPDS: You might not agree with his approach to the game, but I don't know Ian must be doing something right:wink: