Thoughts on Pokémon EX: Searching for the best method of leaving behind the EX era.

[Aisor]

Hi!

So this is my first post on PokeGym, and it's a really long one at that, but please bear with me. In this thread, I'm sharing my observations and opinions about the power of Pokémon EX and why I feel they are bad for the game, followed by my ideas of quick solutions that would give new options at least a reasonable fighting chance against their dominance. This thread has no particular goal since I'm not deluded enough to expect it to change a thing, I just feel like sharing my thoughts out my curiosity to see the response and will to learn the logic of PTCGO's design a little better.

So where I live, Pokémon TCG has gone almost extinct. Those few who still haven't quit PTCG in favor of healthier alternatives like Magic the Gathering aren't enthusiastic about playing. Rather, those who still play do so mostly out of the power of habit, less actively than before and even then they are desperately waiting for a breakthrough to happen in the game's nature. it seems everyone feels that the game is:

1) Too fast for most cards to keep up with and leave room for enough decision-making options (Basics attack too hard and too fast)

2) Way more luck based than this type of a trading card game ever should ever be (most notable examples: the uneven and donk-encouraging first turn rules and the unfair power of laser sleep flip)


That is the main part of the message. The rest of this message will consist of arguments that explain the main causes of the problem, giving both real and hypothetical examples of what impact certain EX Pokémon cards and trainer cards have on the game.

I originally planned to write a longer text that would deal with other issues than just EX, but upon writing it, I realized that the issues with energy acceleration and catcher, and even the luck element, really come down to the issues with EX that attack so fast and hard. The weird numbering of headings is a relic of that and nothing more, please pay it no mind (and also a proof of my laziness :/)

EDIT: I made a cute little survey to accompany this thread, because everyone loves surveys. I'm not sure if I found the correct questions to ask but I thought it would be interesting to see what you guys actually like or dislike seeing the most.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1w0s0Km3XgZWV3tdA6pLsd_s0QY1U70TUrsaS73S3_LU/viewform

1.1.1)

Let's assume a situation with two different cards, Pokémon A EX and Pokémon A.

Pokémon A EX, Basic Pokémon
Type: Colorless
HP: 170
Attack: 100 damage for 3 Colorless (any) energy
Retreat Cost, Weakness, Resistance: None

Pokémon A, Stage 2 Pokémon
Type: Colorless
HP: 170
Attack: 100 damage for 3 Colorless (any) energy
Retreat Cost, Weakness, Resistance: None

Both have the exact same stats. The only difference is that A EX is a Basic Pokémon. This gives the card considerable advantages over its counterpart that I will go over now.

a) All cards you need to draw in order to play the card

Pokémon A EX:

1. This EX card or another card that searches for it.

Pokémon A:

1. A Basic Pokémon for this card or another card that can search for it.

2. A stage 1 Pokémon for this card or a card that can search for it/ a Rare Candy or another card that can search for it.

3. This card or another card that can search for it.

Meaning: Using Pokémon A EX requires much less deck space (1 vs 3) and is more consistent to get into play (less correct draws needed).

b) Steps of getting the card in play

Pokémon A EX

1. turn: If you have this card in your hand, you can play it if you have room on your bench / it's in your opening hand

Pokémon A

1. turn: Have the Basic of this Pokémon in play

2. turn: If you have a rare candy and Pokémon A, evolve it/ If you have Stage 1 of Pokémon A, evolve into it instead.

3. turn: (if you didn't rare candy)Evolve the Stage 1 Pokémon into Pokémon A.

Meaning: It takes considerably more time to get Pokémon A into play. And that is not factoring your opponent using a combination of Pokémon catcher and strong EX attacks to knock out any of your Stage 1 and Basics during turns 1 and 2!!

c) Getting the card ready to attack

Pokémon A EX:

If you draw EX on your first turn: Attach an energy card, or possibly more if you have Ether/Colress Machine/Dark Patch. You can attack right away the same turn.

Pokémon A:

You draw the basic of Pokémon A on your first turn: Attach an energy card to it, possibly more if you have Ether/Dark Patch. The Basic and all energy attached to it are very vulnerable and can only use very weak attacks.

In short, being a basic Pokémon with strength equal to Stage 2 in itself is a huge advantage that could already considered something worhty of a 2 prize penatly.

Sadly, this was only the beginning:

1.1.2) The Strength of EX cards

The previous example assumed the Stage 2 and Basic to be equal in stats. However, this is not the case. EX Pokémon in general have more HP and stronger attacks, and extremely useful abilities on top of that. To make things even worse, they have access to Eviolite, Skyarrow Bridge and Prism Energy, unlike any Stage 2 Pokémon.

In reality, Darkrai and Keldeo KO Stage 2 Pokémon way faster than they can be knocked out in return. So despite the 2 prize penalty, these decks are much more likely to win by prizes.
Darkrai and Keldeo are also much more sustainable than Stage 2. These decks never run out of attackers. Even if you have to discard some of your EX, they are much easier to get back from the discard pile than everything you need to play Stage 2. They can also be played right after they are returned, unlike Stage 2 that can't evolve the same turn. Not to mention, EX last longer due to their huge HP stat.

In most cases, Keldeo with enough water energy and Darkrai with Dark Claw and Virbank-booster Hypnotoxic Laser (or previously spread damage to the bench) knock Stage 2 Pokémon out in one turn. So even after taking all the risks of getting these cards in play, they most likely don't even get to do anything significant. If they get to attack once, it's not enough to knock out an EX, and the Stage 2 is knocked out immediately after. If you have another Stage 2 in queue, it can finish the EX out. But by this time, they have another EX to KO your next Stage 2. The Stage 2 user has run out of attackers at this point, even if your luck overcomes all the risks and you get Stage 2 in fighting condition, the cards aren't strong enough to compete.

Examples: Some of the strongest Stage 2 attackers

a) Empoleon: Thanks to Diving Draw that can complement draw supporters you can't fit into a deck with Stage 2. Very energy-efficient at attacking.

Problem: It doesn't do enough to knock out EX before it's knocked out. Keldeo most certainly attacks for at least 140 if Blastoise is in play.

Darkrai with Dark Claw and Virbank-boosted Laser hits for exactly 140 HP, which is needed to knock out an Empoleon.

Not to mention Darkrai attacks faster most of the time thanks to Dark Patch and being a basic. it can also spread damage to knock out benched Piplup and the like, or at least lower reliance of Laser.

b) Garchomp: Because of Gabite's Dragon Call, you need very few search and draw cards to get it out. It's an extremely energy-efficient attacker that is reliable to get out.

Problem: The exact same. It doesn't do enough to knock out EX before it's knocked out. Keldeo most certainly attacks for at least 140 if Blastoise is in play.

Darkrai with Dark Claw and Virbank-boosted Laser hits for exactly 140 HP, which is needed to knock out a Garchomp.

Not to mention Darkrai attacks faster most of the time thanks to Dark Patch and being a basic. it can also spread damage to knock out benched Gible and the like, or at least lower reliance of Laser.

And this is only the first part of strong EX cards. Some of them specialize in dealing a lot of damage since turn 1, and despite this they remain very potent even after that point.

Tornadus EX deals 60+ damage on the first turn with favorable conditions, contributing to the donking problem. 100 damage is nothing to sneeze at either since it allows Tornadus to exchange blows evenly with any Stage 2 and emerge victorious.

Landorus EX is even more problematic. If the player with Landorus EX goes first, it has a huge chance of knocking out two of their opponent's evolving basic Pokémon before that player reaches the first turn they could evolve. Any energy attached possibilities are wasted as they would get discarded alongside these cards upon KO. And then there's land's Judgment, which is not phenomenal but it gives Landorus presence later as well, and has an amazingly strong added effect that will outright KO pretty much anything Stage 2.

Mewtwo EX not only is capable of knocking out evolving Basics on turn 1 particularly with HTL, but it is an example of a Pokémon that can destroy all advantage Stage 2 user has the moment it is benched. It has unlimited damage cap and it attacks for just one DCE. Because of its high HP, it wins exchanges against Stage 2 just like any EX and you can set up other Mewtwo much faster than your opponent can set up new attackers. They run out of cards or fail to draw them in time eventually.

1.1.3) A summary of problems these advantages create together

Problem: EX require less search/draw/retrieval cards than Stage 2 attackers to get played reliably. Yet, EX take much less deck space than Stage 2 lines and therefore. This creates a huge gap in consistency of EX centered decks and Stage 2 centered decks.

Problem: The first-turn rules greatly favor EX and places much less risk upon them than upon use of Stage 2 attackers.

Problem: The speed of EX gives them additional edge in exchanges against Stage 2, because not only can they knock basics before they can get evolved, but this also makes EX much faster to resupply if the active gets knocked out AND they get just as strong at full potential, if not stronger. And since it generally takes more than 1 Stage 2 to take down an EX, the Stage 2 user will run out of cards even if they are lucky enough to get their field full of Stage 2. EX are better both in terms of getting prizes and emptying your opponent's field.

1.1.4) A list of some solutions to these problems that would mitigate these problems

Problem: EX require less search/draw/retrieval cards than Stage 2 attackers to get played reliably. Yet, EX take much less deck space than Stage 2 lines and therefore. This creates a huge gap in consistency of EX centered decks and Stage 2 centered decks.

EX-dependent decks need more direct threats that they can't solve with just HTL or big non-EX Basics. Safeguard, Gold Breaker anad Plasma Steel aren't enough to force EX decks to get rid of their 'luxury cards', and to get the closer to the same level of consistency as Stage 2 attacker decks. Adding a couple of non-EX basics isn't a big deal to their deck structure, but being forced to use Evolved attackers to complement their EX to respond to some risks definitely would have that effect.
Special case: Garbodor. It requires a lot of cards to play when you consider the tools. But then again, the tools can also be used by EX. And by far the most important thing: Garbodor doesn't need to attack to function, so using it doesn't involve enough tough decision-making in deckbuilding or gameplay.

Problem: The first-turn rules greatly favor EX and places much less risk upon them than upon use of Stage 2 attackers.

The problem of donks is not only limited to EX, but let's face it, certain EX are the ones who donk by far more than anything else. Either way, the best way to approach the issue of EX donking basics before they even get a chance to evolve is a change the very rules of the game: The player who goes first can't use attacks to inflict damage on the defending Pokémon (Special conditions and all other effects still apply, and the effects of Abilities as well). The first-turn advantage is too big at the moment. If the player who goes second relies on evolutions, particularly evolved attackers, they WILL get severely damaged by a starting Landorus EX before the other player can evolve. But with this rule change, the odds would even out a little. It's still something unverified and a big change that would require a lot of playtesting to perfect, but the current situation isn't sustainable considering Virbank-boosted HTL and certain EX attackers like Mewtwo, Landorus and Tornadus in particular.

Problem: EX decks can power up their next Active Pokémon much faster and more reliably than Stage 2 Pokémon.

Solution (?): This is something that cannot be changed, and it shouldn't be changed. Making evolution faster would just make energy acceleration even more broken and speed up the already too fast game even further. And it wouldn't solve the problem with the impossible difficulty of keeping a constant stream of Stage 2 attackers coming anyway.

That's why this problem needs to be looked at from another angle, by looking at another problem.

Problem: Stage 2 can't evenly exchange with EX even if they manage to set up. This leads to running out of attackers and loss by either prizes or getting every Pokémon knocked out.

This is the problem. Even the best Stage 2 options get knocked out by Darkrai or Keldeo in one hit. So they last less although they take more time to get into play and the fact they have abysmal earlygame! How is this logical? Well, it definitely isn't fair. And to make the exchanges more even, there are a couple of ways to mitigate this problem:

Solution 1: Give Stage 2 Pokémon support (tools, support Abilities, specialized attackers, etc.) that makes it more likely they OHKO EX like EX OHKO them.

Now this would make the situation more even if Stage 2 get on the field. But even if this makes the game more even between these two alternatives ,would it be good for the game? I think not. The game is already way too fast for the liking of the majority, and this would speed up at least some Stage 2 to the level where they can OHKO EX. So it contributes to the problem that has been caused by power creep: All or nothing. Do you really want to just keep throwing cards on the table like that? This type of gameplay removes a lot of interesting decision-making possibilities since if everything gets KO'd anyway, the only thing you can do is pay back. This leads to the other solution.

Solution 2: Give Stage 2 Pokémon support (tools, Abilities, stadiums, items, etc.) that increase their survivalibility.

So they would become more difficult to OHKO, the other approach to letting Stage 2 exchange effectively with the strongest EX. Once more Pokémon have support that raises their HP above the danger zone of OHKO by fast-attacking EX in certain likely scenarios, the value of each Stage 2 in play increases significantly. But this has so many counters that are already used. Tools get scrapped to get the Pokémon back on OHKO area, Stadiums get countered, Abilities face Garbotoxin and so on. It's too many unreliable and counterable factors, so these are most likely not enough. So let's take this a step further.

Solution 3: In addition to Solution 2, introduce Lvl. X (differently named equivalent since levels no longer exist in cards) of Stage 2 Pokémon.

These cards would have more HP, some might even have immunity to damage from basics or attacks that inflict extra damage and effects if the defending Pokémon is EX (or any other basic Pokémon, possibly). Using EX would be risky again. They would still have the advantages they have always had to win games by prizes or knocking everything out. But the new coming of "Lvl. X" of Stage 2 would change the very definition of lategame. They would make evolutions stronger without making Stage 2 attack faster, slowing down the game. At least some of them would have attacks that are more effective against EX/other basics than all other Pokémon, slowing the later stages of the game down, meaning that the level of damage they deal to each other would be less than that. So end game fights between these would at least have the potential to favor subtle decision-making rather than pure power. EX would now have a different significance and the game would generally become slower after you get enough "Lvl. X" into play.

For now, I see this as the only possible QUICK solution to the EX problem. And even so, it only works if combined with a new first turn rule that would make donks way less likely and make luck a smaller factor of the game.

Still, some examples of other, tiny alternatives that are not mutually exclusive with Solution 3:

Mini-solution 1: Energy efficiency for Stage 2 without energy acceleration.
Shift Gear and Dark Trace are pretty good. What about a variant that can swap Energy between Stage 2 Pokémon? It wouldn' speed up the game and it would add decision-making elements.

Mini-solution 2: Do the Wave á la Stage 2/Stage1, either an attack that can be used by any Stage 2 via a Tool or something that has a couple of different users (or even just one). An end-game attack that deals damage based on Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokémon you have in play, dealing massive damage for little energy as long as you have a full set of Stage 2 in play. It is definitely a problem as it risks making mirror matches between these quite luck-reliant. But on the good side, it would provide opportunities to make you bench into a toolbox. And Stage 2 or Stage 1 that has an Ability that alone's not enough to make them playable could find a role as a benchsitter in this formation.

So what all this comes down to is the concept of risk and reward. Rather than overcentralizing all good qualities of a card on so few options, all cards need to fall short somewhere in their core design. Evolved Pokémon should have the power that makes up for lack speed, and EX, for all their strength, should have considerable walls later in the game to make up for becoming powerful so fast. Pokémon with powerful Abilities should have lower HP or weak attacks, particularly if they are EX/other basics.

Thanks for reading! (or at least skimmin or otherwise interacting with this post enough to reach down here!). Like I said at the beginning, I'm kind of unsure about the purpose of this text, even though I spent almost three hours writing it. I'm not deluded enough to think this would change anything, but I just feel a little bit better after sharing my thoughts about what I think this game has the potential to become even now when it seems to be more problematic than it has been since Haymaker and Neo Genesis days.

 

[bullados]

I've had this thought about Pokemon-EX for a long time, and I think there's something in here worth investigating...

What does every Pokemon-EX have in common? They are all Legendary Pokemon.

How many of each Legendary Pokemon can you obtain in a single Pokemon Video Game cartridge without trading? One.

So, why not put a rule in place that you can only use one of each Pokemon-EX in your deck? I'm not talking about one Pokemon-EX in total. I'm talking more one Landorus EX and one Tornadus EX and one Darkrai EX and etc.

Pokemon-EX are broken because they're easy to set up and fast to reset. So, even if they're still easy to set up, I think that making it harder to reset them will have some positive influences on the game.

 

[yoshi1001]

Personally, I've toyed with the idea of suggesting P!P introduce a "No EXes" or "No Legendaries" sanctionable format. It wouldn't necessarily be used in premiere events, but it would be nice to have some sort of official alternative.

 

[Aisor]

I've had this thought about Pokemon-EX for a long time, and I think there's something in here worth investigating...

What does every Pokemon-EX have in common? They are all Legendary Pokemon.

How many of each Legendary Pokemon can you obtain in a single Pokemon Video Game cartridge without trading? One.

So, why not put a rule in place that you can only use one of each Pokemon-EX in your deck? I'm not talking about one Pokemon-EX in total. I'm talking more one Landorus EX and one Tornadus EX and one Darkrai EX and etc.

Pokemon-EX are broken because they're easy to set up and fast to reset. So, even if they're still easy to set up, I think that making it harder to reset them will have some positive influences on the game.

That... definitely sounds like a good way to decrease the control EX have over the game. It seems not only effective but simply and logical to me. I guess the simplest answers are often the best ones.

The only issue I see with this is how this change could be implemented. Until now, all cards you could only legally have only one copy of in your deck have always had that restriction written on the card. And whether 2 of each limit would be more balanced/fair to everyone (thought that would go against the "unique legendary"-argument)

Personally, I've toyed with the idea of suggesting P!P introduce a "No EXes" or "No Legendaries" sanctionable format. It wouldn't necessarily be used in premiere events, but it would be nice to have some sort of official alternative.

That would possibly be an interesting format to play, at the very least as an alternate or unofficial way to play.

However, I'd really like it it were possible to find a way to keep EX a viable option, just not this dominant.

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

I dislike Exs just as much but it's not just them that's the problem in B&W, it's big Basics in general, Reshiram and Zekrom were unbalanced, things just got worse with Next Destinies.
I don't think there's much point in errata'ing them to one per deck... that's just going to increase the level of luck involved even more!
"Oh, I didn't draw my 1 Tornadus EX"
"Ah ha, I did!" ... *Dominates*

I've just been looking at the speculation on the end of the B&W era and someone brought up some interesting facts about the end of HGSS era and the huge gap between the generations in Japans TCG. If they do a hard rotation again there's a good chance the whole world will too this time.
In that case no new rules or formats are really necessary... just sit out this boring format until October and hope for better things in XY on!

 

[Poke Trainer J]

Big Basics are a huge problem in the current format, but what I've noticed in the TCG since the end of HGSS is that in the TCG and in the video games via GTS on Random Matchup in Gen V the Pokemon franchise nowadays sort of requires you to finish games in a very short amount of time and apparently Japan sees this as being better than what the TCG used to be which allowed you to setup with decks using Stage 1 and Stage 2 Evolutions with Poke-Powers/Poke-Bodies.

A better way to fix the Big Basic EX issue is why not print EX's that are actual Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokemon? TPCi and P!P don't like that idea because they can unfortunately get away with making every EX exclusively Legendary Pokemon that don't evolve and since there's almost like 20-30 Legendaries they could print as EX's that's still a shame they think more about business first instead of trying to balance the TCG and OCG to the benefit of the players that play the actual card game. As for Evolution decks in the current format? It's not looking so good right now...

There's too much energy acceleration in the format especially with cheap attack costs for Big Basics with damage output around 120+ or more, while you have Blastoise/Keldeo, Darkrai/Hydreigon, and possibly Cobalion EX/Team Plasma Klinklang being played as Stage 2 decks it seems like TPCi thinks it's okay to neuter Stage 2's more by releasing cards such as Ghetsis which shutsdown Rare Candy and possibly Tropical Beach which is played in Blastoise/Keldeo, Max Potion gets screwed over in Darkrai/Hydreigon but it seems like most decklists are too tight on Supporter space to run Ghetsis. Having Hypnotoxic Laser with Virbank City Gym doesn't help things either but that's why Keldeo EX is so good right now in almost every deck because of it's Rush In ability.

Keldeo EX almost makes Catcher a terrible card in the format because why play Catcher when they can just Rush In with Keldeo on their next turn and play a Switch from their hand or use up energies to retreat it out for something on their bench? Then again that might all change next set because as soon as Genesect EX is released it can easily counter Keldeo EX for 2 prizes making Catcher more playable again even though it's still a 3-4 staple in every competitive deck right now. Sure it's attack cost is :grass::grass::colorless: for 100 to opponent's Active and 20 bench snipe but it could work I guess. Although Genesect EX might not see as much play because it's attack cost doesn't allow you to abuse DCE with it for something like :grass::colorless::colorless: which would've made it an even better card than it already is. It probably won't see as much play just like Shaymin EX and every other Grass Type Big Basic EX in the format right now, Virizion EX on the other hand...

 

[carlossan]

Why not use the opposite idea? Grab 'half' a prize when you kill certain new type of pokemon ^^;;

 

[Aisor]

I dislike Exs just as much but it's not just them that's the problem in B&W, it's big Basics in general, Reshiram and Zekrom were unbalanced, things just got worse with Next Destinies.
I don't think there's much point in errata'ing them to one per deck... that's just going to increase the level of luck involved even more!
"Oh, I didn't draw my 1 Tornadus EX"
"Ah ha, I did!" ... *Dominates*

I've just been looking at the speculation on the end of the B&W era and someone brought up some interesting facts about the end of HGSS era and the huge gap between the generations in Japans TCG. If they do a hard rotation again there's a good chance the whole world will too this time.
In that case no new rules or formats are really necessary... just sit out this boring format until October and hope for better things in XY on!

That's so true. I used EX in my example about Basic vs Evolution advantages, but it applies to any Basic Pokémon that, for some incomprehensible reason, is made as strong as your average stage 2 Pokémon or even stronger. Those cards, no matter how rare they are to find, don't make any sense. I've tried to figure out the logic of making basic Pokémon the strongest, but I just don't understand.

About the 1 EX rule, there are definitely a lot of things that need to be considered. But I'd still prefer it if over what we have now. Those decks would need more cards to be fast and consistent about setting up.

Speaking of luck, in this super speed format luck is something way too prevalent. Any mirror matchup will be won by who goes first because it's all about speed and because the first-turn advantage is so huge.

And like you said, I'm definitely hoping that if they can't figure yout anything else, XY would somehow change things for the better with a harsh rotation.

But I'm not even sure if Pokémon Company identifies or Pokémon Card Laboratory considers big basics a problem. I've seen a lot of players who say "Just use your own EX" as if nothing else is needed in the game.

My worry is that since the TCG is a side product of the video games, rather than a 'real' card game, they seem to favor other factors than making the game fair, diverse, strategic, rewarding and fun to play. I know this sounds pessimistic but it's like the designers have no passion for making the game a worldwide card game sensation, and only think of the cards' design in business sense that centers around limiting the game around certain rare and unproportionally strong cards (even if business and good game design don't contradict, at all)

Big Basics are a huge problem in the current format, but what I've noticed in the TCG since the end of HGSS is that in the TCG and in the video games via GTS on Random Matchup in Gen V the Pokemon franchise nowadays sort of requires you to finish games in a very short amount of time and apparently Japan sees this as being better than what the TCG used to be which allowed you to setup with decks using Stage 1 and Stage 2 Evolutions with Poke-Powers/Poke-Bodies.

A better way to fix the Big Basic EX issue is why not print EX's that are actual Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokemon? TPCi and P!P don't like that idea because they can unfortunately get away with making every EX exclusively Legendary Pokemon that don't evolve and since there's almost like 20-30 Legendaries they could print as EX's that's still a shame they think more about business first instead of trying to balance the TCG and OCG to the benefit of the players that play the actual card game. As for Evolution decks in the current format? It's not looking so good right now...

There's too much energy acceleration in the format especially with cheap attack costs for Big Basics with damage output around 120+ or more, while you have Blastoise/Keldeo, Darkrai/Hydreigon, and possibly Cobalion EX/Team Plasma Klinklang being played as Stage 2 decks it seems like TPCi thinks it's okay to neuter Stage 2's more by releasing cards such as Ghetsis which shutsdown Rare Candy and possibly Tropical Beach which is played in Blastoise/Keldeo, Max Potion gets screwed over in Darkrai/Hydreigon but it seems like most decklists are too tight on Supporter space to run Ghetsis. Having Hypnotoxic Laser with Virbank City Gym doesn't help things either but that's why Keldeo EX is so good right now in almost every deck because of it's Rush In ability.

Keldeo EX almost makes Catcher a terrible card in the format because why play Catcher when they can just Rush In with Keldeo on their next turn and play a Switch from their hand or use up energies to retreat it out for something on their bench? Then again that might all change next set because as soon as Genesect EX is released it can easily counter Keldeo EX for 2 prizes making Catcher more playable again even though it's still a 3-4 staple in every competitive deck right now. Sure it's attack cost is :grass::grass::colorless: for 100 to opponent's Active and 20 bench snipe but it could work I guess. Although Genesect EX might not see as much play because it's attack cost doesn't allow you to abuse DCE with it for something like :grass::colorless::colorless: which would've made it an even better card than it already is. It probably won't see as much play just like Shaymin EX and every other Grass Type Big Basic EX in the format right now, Virizion EX on the other hand...

I've also wondered about Japan. If their TCG culture has very different preferences than I, personally, have. Then it's possible EX and other big basics with unlimited energy acceleration are their favorites, then that's it. It doesn't matter if dread the boringly limited and straightforward decision-making caused by the existence of too fast and strong cards, the luck-element being overblown by HTL sleep flip and utterly loopsided going-first advantages, and if I find it a terrible waste of the game's potential that EVERYTHING except things that either attack fast or let others attack fast is unplayable (the only exceptions being attempts to stop enemy from attacking fast like hammertime and Plasma Steel, but that only exists in response to the problem and doesn't even work that reliably and both of those use big basics anyway).

Well, that would be a good idea since it considerable slow down the speed of EX, but it's impossible. It says on the card that it's a Basic, there isn't really changing that. And rather than starting to fix things by making new type of EX, no EX at all sounds much more appealing to me. And I think it's a good thing EX is limited to legendaries. We wouldn't need EX Stage 2 and Stage 1 attackers if they were strong and fast enough to stop EX once they get set up. And they definitely can't do it, particularly with Keldeo, Darkrai, Mewtwo and Black Ballista.

I think we disagree here. I find the combination of energy acceleration and big basic Pokémon the most broken thing ever. And I don't consider those Stage 2 decks, they only devote like 10 cards for stage 2 (excluding search), the rest of that deck is just EX pummeling everything with stage 2 support. That's because they an attack right away after they are benched, and if you have items that energy accelerate like colress machine, dark patch and ether, you could very well just reach the maximum damage potential on the first turn, before your opponent can even evolve anything! And after Blastoise, Eels or Hydreigon is in the game, they can resupply new EX even faster. Energy doesn't really matter at that point.

Following this, one could think that Garbodor makes other cards than EX usable because it disables their support. Wrong. Garbodor + evolved attackers stands absolutely no chance againt Garbodor + big basics.

I wouldn't call catcher a bad card even with Keldeo's poorly designed Ability around, not at all. I like to try my luck with Stage 2/Stage 1 attacker decks and catcher is a big part of what makes it impossible. I bench a basic and attach an energy, it gets catchered and that's the end of that story. But ideally, if Genesect sees play it would maybe force Blastoise/Keldeo/BlackKyurem to counter Genesect somehow (thought I don't see how since Keldeo and particularly Black Kyurem OHKO Genesect anyway) and therefore make their deck less focused in general. That could open a window of opportunity for other decks. And ideally, Virizion's Ability would make HTL less relevant. Still, trying to balance the game around just EX vs EX matchups is such a boring situation even if it were to work out.

Why not use the opposite idea? Grab 'half' a prize when you kill certain new type of pokemon ^^;;

That would be pretty tricky in practice If they were strong and fast enough to trade better 1 for 4 against EX, then they would be strong and fast enough to trade more than 1 for 2 against everything else as well, and they would become the next problem. And if cards like those were centered around something else, I don't know. If they had milling capabilities, well, that would be the end of the game. If they were able to wall (even against catcher), then that would just let EX set their energy acceleration even more reliably.

 

[rivershock]

I didn't read the entire thing, so forgive me if some of this is irrelevant or already covered. (Not feeling 100%.)

Simply put, those basic Pokemon species are stronger than stage 2 species. Doesn't make as much sense for the TCG, but in the games and every other canon except the TCG, Reshiram is, for example, simply much, much stronger than Blastoise. It's not really any odder than Spinda cards being weaker than Reshiram cards from any viewpoint but balancing the TCG.

That being said, I wouldn't count evolved Pokemon out. I've mained Garchomp ever since Dragons Exalted came out. It's faster than people give credit for (probably in part due to my build being straight Garchomp, not using Altarias or anything else, so it sets up quite fast and doesn't lose prizes to Catcher as often), and if you can recover quick enough (which is generally the case for me, actually), the fact you're only losing 1 prize for each knocked out Pokemon makes up for it being marginally slower. If you can keep coming at them without giving them time to recover their field, you can cause some serious damage to their setup, which can give the edge, especially when you're taking more prizes than them due to their EX's.

 

[bullados]

I don't think there's much point in errata'ing them to one per deck... that's just going to increase the level of luck involved even more!
"Oh, I didn't draw my 1 Tornadus EX"
"Ah ha, I did!" ... *Dominates*

I'm not talking about 1 Pokemon-EX per deck.

I'm talking about 1 of each Pokemon-EX per deck.

So you can play your deck with 5 Pokemon-EX, they just all have to be different.

Or, as a slight modification to that rule, have a rule that states that you can't have more than 1 of each Pokemon-EX in play at a time. That way, the prize screw doesn't happen.

Either way, I don't like seeing decks stack 3 Darkrai with 3 energy on the bench. I don't like seeing decks stack 2 Rays and an Arrow to dance. I don't like seeing decks constantly spam Landorus.

The older BBPs are also a problem, but not as big of one as the Pokemon-EX. The Stage 2s can at least out-power those older BBPs, as they generally have more reasonable energy to damage ratios than the EXs, as well as more reasonable HP counts. And Stage 2s are now fairly powerful compared to the BW only days. I think they can stand up to the older BBPs where they can't stand up to the Pokemon-EX.

 

[Aisor]

I didn't read the entire thing, so forgive me if some of this is irrelevant or already covered. (Not feeling 100%.)

Simply put, those basic Pokemon species are stronger than stage 2 species. Doesn't make as much sense for the TCG, but in the games and every other canon except the TCG, Reshiram is, for example, simply much, much stronger than Blastoise. It's not really any odder than Spinda cards being weaker than Reshiram cards from any viewpoint but balancing the TCG.

That being said, I wouldn't count evolved Pokemon out. I've mained Garchomp ever since Dragons Exalted came out. It's faster than people give credit for (probably in part due to my build being straight Garchomp, not using Altarias or anything else, so it sets up quite fast and doesn't lose prizes to Catcher as often), and if you can recover quick enough (which is generally the case for me, actually), the fact you're only losing 1 prize for each knocked out Pokemon makes up for it being marginally slower. If you can keep coming at them without giving them time to recover their field, you can cause some serious damage to their setup, which can give the edge, especially when you're taking more prizes than them due to their EX's.

I'm sure the legendaries legendary strength is a big part of the justification. Maybe the card designers just want to show how powerful those Pokémon are in the games and everything about the game's functionality as a whole is secondary.

I haven't really played Garchomp myself, but from the games I've played against it I have been able to overpower them even with my decks that don't utilize any EX attackers. They simply run out of attackers. But I don't doubt you if you say you have found a way to consistently resupply your bench. And then again, maybe they are better equipped to fight against EX specifically than my weird experiments. Anyway, I take your word for it and I don't doubt you, even if I don't see how it would be successful more than maybe three times out of ten. It sounds like it's worth experimenting with, though.

(Btw I only use TCGO as the current format doesn't interest me enough to buy real card, particularly when I can barely find anyone to play with. And after seeing the letdown Megalo Cannon set's scans, I've lost interest in buying card codes either.)

 

[Swordfish1989]

The luck based factor of Pokemon is what really kills it for me. I know it's a kid's game, but having coin flips is just poisonous and gives people excuses to cry about when losing. Why can't laser's second effect be dependent on another factor, such as how many team plasma pokemon you have in play?

The issue you bring up about the opening turn is also true. There is absolutely no reason why anyone would want to go second. There's no point. They should balance it so that there are advantages to both going first AND second so that when you win the coin-flip, you're allowed to choose which way you want to go. It can add a layer of strategy to the game. For example, let's say that going first means you cannot attack, or that going second means you can already start evolving. With the 2nd example I gave, it means that decks relying on stage 2s for example will choose to go second as they can start evolving sooner than the player who went first. The person playing a big basics deck would prefer to go first still. That way, losing the coin flip isn't an automatic 'oh no' moment.

 

[pokedan24]

The OP is spot on. Being a basic has always been an advantage for those very reasons. In base set days, Charizard had the most HP and the highest damage output, but was only considered a fun league deck thanks to the high energy cost and effort required to get a stage 2 out. Meanwhile Hitmonchan, a much weakr basic, was considered a top tier card because of how simple it was to play. Just having it in your hand meant that you could put it down, attach an energy, and instantly deal 20 damage, putting a lot of preasure on opponents.

14 years of power creep later, Charizard is even stronger, with a whopping 160 HP and an attack that does 150. It's easily the strongest stage 2 in terms of HP and damage output, but it's still outclassed by basics that have 180 HP and can deal 200 plus damage. Basic pokemon are more powerful than pokemon that need entire set ups devoted to getting them out. Unless a stage 2 does something broken (like energy acceleration), it, and all of it's previous stages are considered worthless. That's 90% of cards that will never see competitive play thanks to a few big basics over powering all of them. And I'm not even going into the cards that only benefit basics (skyarrow, prism energy, and eviolite)

The best solution I see is to make it so that evolutions have a much higher damage to energy ratio. Now they've done this with Empoleon and Garchomp, allowing them to do reasonable damage for a single energy, but I think so many cards could get away with having less energy cost, while still not being broken.

Ninjask: Nightslash has a hit and run attack that does 60 for GC. Why not make it one G? Or even C? 60 damage really isn't that broken anymore, especially on a stage 1 with less HP than many evolving basics.

How about Raticate? He and Ratata easily have the worst HP in the game, but the attack costs CCC to bring them down to 10 HP. Why not make it C or CC? It would be really good for the cost, but the low HP would keep it from being broken.

Even those like Charizard could stand lesser energy costs. Why should scorching fire cost 5 energy when EXes do that same damage for 4? Why not RCC for scorching fire and R for split bomb? It would be broken on a basic, but on a stage 2 that you can't attack with turn one, it would be reasonable.

Evolutions need something to give them an advantage over basics because otherwise, 90% of the cards that come out will never stand a chance.

 

[Yoshi-]

I agree that the game is a mess right now but I dont see the point in these suggestions, its not like the card-creators dont KNOW whats happening / what impact cards will have etc, its mostly not rocket science. Its just the way the game is designed to be right now, its all intentional, for whatever reason. All I hope is that it just ended up being worse then what they expected and they'll change direction with x/y.

I think we just have to suck it up and endure it until worlds, and then I see 2 options:

1) Continue the way they're doing it right now, doesnt seem to be too likely, they've always introduced new mechanics with new main games and they have to promote the starters somehow.

2) Come up with a new mechanic and have the stage 2 starters be the first example of those. And at this point they have to print some sick stage2s for those, otherwise they'll just get ignored.


I think the first one is just really unlikely so I'm just waiting for the first x/y spoilers, they have to do something with the starters and if they cant keep up the set wont sell. I just hope they finally give us 80/90 hp starts and 170/180 hp stage 2s, the actual numbers dont matter as long as they can keep up and as long as basics have 50/60 hp they wont be playable with thundurus ex around.

E:/ I agree though, the current situation is not healthy for the player base

 

[Aisor]

The luck based factor of Pokemon is what really kills it for me. I know it's a kid's game, but having coin flips is just poisonous and gives people excuses to cry about when losing. Why can't laser's second effect be dependent on another factor, such as how many team plasma pokemon you have in play?

The issue you bring up about the opening turn is also true. There is absolutely no reason why anyone would want to o second. There's no point. They should balance it so that there are advantages to both going first AND second so that when you win the coin-flip, you're allowed to choose which way you want to go. It can add a layer of strategy to the game. For example, let's say that going first means you cannot attack, or that going second means you can already start evolving. With the 2nd example I gave, it means that decks relying on stage 2s for example will choose to go second as they can start evolving sooner than the player who went first. The person playing a big basics deck would prefer to go first still. That way, losing the coin flip isn't an automatic 'oh no' moment.

If I were to give the designers the benefit of doubt and assume they actually put some thought into HTL, I think that would be related to the kids' game argument. Anyone can win if the coin favors them, if less experienced/dedicated players are able to win thanks to this it attracts those players to the game, and all that jazz.

Well, from my experience it definitely isn't that rosy in practice. I feel that especially for a kids' game, it makes more sense that the winner of the game is determined fairly. Even if losing isn't fun, a deserved victory is much sweeter. And if you are a bitter loser when someone won thanks to their effort and skill, then too bad.

It's not just annoying to be unable to do something in face of someone's good flip luck, it feels cheap and unsatisfying to win carried by it. If I win only thanks to something I didn't have any control over, I only feel bad for my opponent. HTL makes me wonder if some cards are even tested, because the designers are really sadistic if they intentionally unleashed all the bitterness that was spread by HTL flips and HTL donks.

HTL is a weird example though, because the effect is basically equal to that of an attack. I think the first thing to do would be to make sura that using that card ends your turn right away. HTL was your attack that turn. That way the flip wouldn't determine thta much even if it caused someone to lose a turn or be forced to sit through 2 more poison damage counts. But yeah, something less luck-based would be better. Sleep is a flippy status condition already.

I feel they should just change the way special conditions work a little bit. Like: If you are asleep you can't attack, but you can retreat. That way you aren't entirely stuck. Paralysis doesn't need a change because it always lasts for one turn, but sleep can last indefinitely. Then there's burn. Why not make it so that a burned Pokémon takes 10 damage between turns + some other effect like the burned Pokémon dealing 10 less damage with attacks? I only added the bonus effect so that it isn't a 100% copy of poison, but now that I think of it the added effect would make up for burn being a rarer effect and more costly to inflict than poison is.

I have also entertained that thought about letting the player who goes second evolve any Pokémon the placed at the beginning of the game during their first turn. I even made a small survey about how people thought it would impact the game if it happened. Almost everyone thought it was a bad idea. At first I was surprised since it would even the advantage between the first and second player, but then I realized the critical problems. It speeds up the game, it lets energy accelerators to come out even faster. Considering how much energy acceleration benefits EX Pokémon specifically, it wouldn't do any good. The advantage between the first and second player might be closer, but the gap between Basic and Evolved attackers would get even worse.

The OP is spot on. Being a basic has always been an advantage for those very reasons. In base set days, Charizard had the most HP and the highest damage output, but was only considered a fun league deck thanks to the high energy cost and effort required to get a stage 2 out. Meanwhile Hitmonchan, a much weakr basic, was considered a top tier card because of how simple it was to play. Just having it in your hand meant that you could put it down, attach an energy, and instantly deal 20 damage, putting a lot of preasure on opponents.

14 years of power creep later, Charizard is even stronger, with a whopping 160 HP and an attack that does 150. It's easily the strongest stage 2 in terms of HP and damage output, but it's still outclassed by basics that have 180 HP and can deal 200 plus damage. Basic pokemon are more powerful than pokemon that need entire set ups devoted to getting them out. Unless a stage 2 does something broken (like energy acceleration), it, and all of it's previous stages are considered worthless. That's 90% of cards that will never see competitive play thanks to a few big basics over powering all of them. And I'm not even going into the cards that only benefit basics (skyarrow, prism energy, and eviolite)

The best solution I see is to make it so that evolutions have a much higher damage to energy ratio. Now they've done this with Empoleon and Garchomp, allowing them to do reasonable damage for a single energy, but I think so many cards could get away with having less energy cost, while still not being broken.

Ninjask: Nightslash has a hit and run attack that does 60 for GC. Why not make it one G? Or even C? 60 damage really isn't that broken anymore, especially on a stage 1 with less HP than many evolving basics.

How about Raticate? He and Ratata easily have the worst HP in the game, but the attack costs CCC to bring them down to 10 HP. Why not make it C or CC? It would be really good for the cost, but the low HP would keep it from being broken.

Even those like Charizard could stand lesser energy costs. Why should scorching fire cost 5 energy when EXes do that same damage for 4? Why not RCC for scorching fire and R for split bomb? It would be broken on a basic, but on a stage 2 that you can't attack with turn one, it would be reasonable.

Evolutions need something to give them an advantage over basics because otherwise, 90% of the cards that come out will never stand a chance.

So true. Back then, Hitmonchan wasn't the strongest Pokémon. It wasn't played because Hitmonchan is the strongest, it was played because it was fast AND reasonably powerful. Granted, back then the trainer engine giving you 4 plus powers first turn if you feel like it, eneryg removal and super energy removal slowing everything down massively and all that had their effects but in the end, the biggest advantage of Hitmonchan was being a basic Pokémon.

The setup definitely needs to be rewarded. If only the designers took a mindset where they think of the investment made in evolving a Pokémon as something that shows in its attack costs and HP. Those evolution cards are arguably a bigger investment than energy cards, so you should think of them as something more than energy cards and reduce that from the attack cost that would be projected if we were talking about a basic Pokémon. Your examples of what energy costs on evolutions should look like are really good in my opinion, even that Charizard you considered risky. Empoleon and Garchomp are like the only examples of Stage 2 attackers that are efficient enough at not just attacking but supporting your search/draws considering the investment to just get them on the field. And even they fall short because some EX are even stronger.

So far, I've tried to think of a solution that would affect all evolution cards, even those that have already been printed, and that would affect all of them immediately. But I guess that's too much dreaming. It's better to just hope they learn from this EX fiasco and finally realize that being a Basic Pokémon is the best advantage an attacker can have, and therefore other factors should be taken into considerating to balance this.

I agree that the game is a mess right now but I dont see the point in these suggestions, its not like the card-creators dont KNOW whats happening / what impact cards will have etc, its mostly not rocket science. Its just the way the game is designed to be right now, its all intentional, for whatever reason. All I hope is that it just ended up being worse then what they expected and they'll change direction with x/y.
I think we just have to suck it up and endure it until worlds, and then I see 2 options:

1) Continue the way they're doing it right now, doesnt seem to be too likely, they've always introduced new mechanics with new main games and they have to promote the starters somehow.

2) Come up with a new mechanic and have the stage 2 starters be the first example of those. And at this point they have to print some sick stage2s for those, otherwise they'll just get ignored.

I think the first one is just really unlikely so I'm just waiting for the first x/y spoilers, they have to do something with the starters and if they cant keep up the set wont sell. I just hope they finally give us 80/90 hp starts and 170/180 hp stage 2s, the actual numbers dont matter as long as they can keep up and as long as basics have 50/60 hp they wont be playable with thundurus ex around.

E:/ I agree though, the current situation is not healthy for the player base

I agree that the game is a mess right now but I dont see the point in these suggestions, its not like the card-creators dont KNOW whats happening / what impact cards will have etc, its mostly not rocket science. Its just the way the game is designed to be right now, its all intentional, for whatever reason. All I hope is that it just ended up being worse then what they expected and they'll change direction with x/y.

Like you said, it's safe to assume they aren't stupid. I'd assume they have a roadmap for a generation down when before they start, and Pokémon EX are part of that plan. But the problem is that they don't necessarily have the same views of what the game should be like. PCL's agenda has driven the game so far away from being fair and diverse I just don't know what to think sometimes.

With X/Y coming, they definitely have, most opportunity and incentive in years to make Stage 2 prevalent again. But last time they really failed at exactly this part. Reshiram and Zekrom are where the basics madness really started again, Next Destinies just took it way too far. It's also possible they promote the starters' final forms by making them potent benchsitters that support absurdly strong basics. Everything in the set except them, Sylveon and of course the legendaries would be outright filler. And then they would print new versions of Xerneas and Yveltal and other non-mascot legendaries until they can start a new round of EX legendaries right from the beginning. EX wasn't a brand new mechanic in Next Destinies either.

Well, not likely as you said and I hope they learned something from EX, but I wouldn't be that surprised either way.

True about HP. More HP and more energy-efficient are the exact things we need to make evolutions worthwhile as attackers. I'd be happy if they make most evolving basics donk-safe somehow. They could still add some 30 HP stuff, but only as long as they evolve into something equally strong as those are frail.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

So I take it I'm the only one who thinks the format's only problem is that it's being underutilized.

Say what you will but I don't understand how EXs are so broken when they yield two prizes per KO and there's plenty of ways to one up them with non-EX Pokemon (ie Garchomp, Empoleon, techs, normal basics, etc)

Also how are evolutions not rewarded? They get cheaper strong attacks (ie. Garchomp) and higher stages get more efficient energy accel (compare Eels to Blastoise), all while staying one prize with decent HP and effects that EXs need support to accomplish.

If you ask me the problem with this format is the reluctance to do anything that isn't mainstream. There's plenty in the way of options, but no one feels the motivation to use them because 'EXs are better,' a notion I feel to be exaggerated as again no one is bothering to try anything new.

The attacking focus of this generation are basics, so what? Evolutions still see plenty of play in many popular decks they're merely relegated to support and there's viable options for evolved attackers as well people just have to put the effort into getting it to work.

 

[acktacky]

Also how are evolutions not rewarded? They get cheaper strong attacks (ie. Garchomp) and higher stages get more efficient energy accel (compare Eels to Blastoise), all while staying one prize with decent HP and effects that EXs need support to accomplish.

Really? The only Pokemon I can think of that are Stage 2 AND low energy attackers are Garchomp, Chandelure (fire), Empoleon, and Infernape. Even then, they still struggle to compete in the fast meta when they can all get donked.

Sure, a couple of these evolutions have great abilities, like Blastoise and Eelektrik, that have glued may deck archetypes together... But that's two cards out of a current pool of 800+.

The "reward" of them being only one prize is barely a reward when their Stage 1s are always within donk range, and sometimes it will take one sacrifice to get one Stage 2 up and running--and they are still not as powerful.

I agree that there is a problem with being reluctant to do anything BUT EXs, but when you go to build one of those decks, it's so hard to overcome the notion that somebody is going to donk me with Landuorus, Mewtwo or Tornadus, so why bother? The format is allowing for the creativity when it SHOULD.

I like the idea of one EX of a type per deck (one Mewtwo EX, one Tornadus EX, etc.), not only because it can slow things down a bit, but it also adds flavor to the game. You can only catch one in the video game, why do you get to have four in your deck?

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Really? The only Pokemon I can think of that are Stage 2 AND low energy attackers are Garchomp, Chandelure (fire), Empoleon, and Infernape. Even then, they still struggle to compete in the fast meta when they can all get donked.

Sure, a couple of these evolutions have great abilities, like Blastoise and Eelektrik, that have glued may deck archetypes together... But that's two cards out of a current pool of 800+.

The "reward" of them being only one prize is barely a reward when their Stage 1s are always within donk range, and sometimes it will take one sacrifice to get one Stage 2 up and running--and they are still not as powerful.

I agree that there is a problem with being reluctant to do anything BUT EXs, but when you go to build one of those decks, it's so hard to overcome the notion that somebody is going to donk me with Landuorus, Mewtwo or Tornadus, so why bother? The format is allowing for the creativity when it SHOULD.

I like the idea of one EX of a type per deck (one Mewtwo EX, one Tornadus EX, etc.), not only because it can slow things down a bit, but it also adds flavor to the game. You can only catch one in the video game, why do you get to have four in your deck?

I never said that there's a ton of Pokemon that get rewarded for evolution and I was more intending that they have one or the other, they either are great support (energy accel, abilities that affect all your Pokemon/opponent), and sure there's not a lot of them, but that's always been true. Sure we have a card pool almost reaching 1000, but many of them aren't meant for the meta as it is now as they were/are based on set gimmicks. There are still long lasting options though, and I feel they're being underutilized.

In regards to people being reluctant, sure you risk being donked, but that's why you build you deck list to compensate for such risks, with cards like Ditto to distract and cushion your pokemon or Emolga to flood your bench with Pokemon to circumvent the opponent from donking you. In a format in which Eels is a common major threat donking should be a fairly easy thing to compensate for.

 

[baby mario]

I think it's safe to assume two things


1. We are getting exactly what the game/card designers intended
2. The game is primarily designed for the Japanese market and tournament structure

Saying 'we could do this because it's more like the video game' is a dangerous road to go down. The two things are not like each other in so many important ways. Just picking on some arbitary difference because it happens to suit what someone wants at this particular moment (nerfing Big Basics), isn't a very good idea.

 

[Aisor]

So I take it I'm the only one who thinks the format's only problem is that it's being underutilized.

Say what you will but I don't understand how EXs are so broken when they yield two prizes per KO and there's plenty of ways to one up them with non-EX Pokemon (ie Garchomp, Empoleon, techs, normal basics, etc)

Also how are evolutions not rewarded? They get cheaper strong attacks (ie. Garchomp) and higher stages get more efficient energy accel (compare Eels to Blastoise), all while staying one prize with decent HP and effects that EXs need support to accomplish.

If you ask me the problem with this format is the reluctance to do anything that isn't mainstream. There's plenty in the way of options, but no one feels the motivation to use them because 'EXs are better,' a notion I feel to be exaggerated as again no one is bothering to try anything new.

The attacking focus of this generation are basics, so what? Evolutions still see plenty of play in many popular decks they're merely relegated to support and there's viable options for evolved attackers as well people just have to put the effort into getting it to work.

I doubt you are the only one. The ones who don't like the way things are now are just more voiceful.

Well, if none of what I wrote in the OP aren't enough, then I guess we just evaluate things differently. But I can assure you I have used a lot of different decks with non-EX, non-Basic attackers.

I've tried to make Infernape work, I've tried to make Crobat work, I've tried to make Round work, I've tried to make Gallade work, I've tried to make Mamoswine work, I've tried to make Flygon work, I've tried to make Charizard work, I've tried to make Venusaur work, I've tried to make Serperior work, I've tried to make Vespiquen work, I've tried to make Tangrowth work, I've tried to make Golurk work, I've tried to make Gliscor work. I've tried to make Togekiss work. I've tried to make Stoutland work. I've tried to make Scolipede work. I've tried to make Grumpig work. I've tried to make Donphan work. I've tried to make Magnezone work. I've tried to make Weezing work. I've tried to make Torterra work.

There are way more, but you get the idea. In TCGO, I've tried every at least half-interesting to use and half-decent in practice non-basic attacker deck I could build and playtested them a lot.

The only ones that see any success involve Empoleon, Raticate or Plasma Beartic. None of them could ever hope to win a best of 5 against any tier 1 deck.

Granted, I haven't used Garchomp, but when all these lose against very simple decks that really doesn't do anything but energy accelerate big basics or pressure with big basics. When a Keldeo with 6 water energy or a combo of Mewtwo + DCE enters in one turn although everything has been going well until that point and I lose all control over the game right there, it's hard to stay optimistic about unexplored possibilities.

Just so that we are clear, think non-EX basics aren't any better for the game. Reshiram and Zekrom had the same weird problem of being Stage2-levle Pokémon or better statswise despite being basics. When EX decks are only forced to use non-EX basics (part of the same problem) as techs against safeguard and plasma steel, I don't see it as an improvement yet. They are overshadowed now, but for example the better non-EX Keldeo's damage is ridiculous for a basic. The EX are just so much better people seem to forget what the issue really is. And it doesn't take long to count every relevant supporter Stage 1 or Stage 2 either. The way I see it, they speak more of the power of basics than the power of Evolutions.

I think it's safe to assume two things


1. We are getting exactly what the game/card designers intended
2. The game is primarily designed for the Japanese market and tournament structure

Saying 'we could do this because it's more like the video game' is a dangerous road to go down. The two things are not like each other in so many important ways. Just picking on some arbitary difference because it happens to suit what someone wants at this particular moment (nerfing Big Basics), isn't a very good idea.

Of course. Like I said in the post, it's pointless. Some kind of selfish way for me to make a topic just so that I can go through some of my own issues with the game, I guess. And since everything is under the control of Japanese developers, (whose TCG culture and such are completely alien to me so it's perfectly possible the consensus over there might be that EX are the best thing to ever happen to the game), it's impossible for anything on this forum to have any effect on that department.

But at least I'm trying to be objective about identifying problems that this haves as a card game, not a sideproduct of Pokémon, and then analyzing them. Sure it's arbitrary, everything about it is influenced by opinions since we are talking about a hobby here, but I wouldn't call it entirely arbitrary. And I actually want TCG to be different from how powerful each Pokémon is as there are. The logic of a game that's about catching and training Pokémon and then using them isn't the same as that of a card game. Just imagine what it would be like if you had to evolve your pokémon from basic to final form mid-battle in competitive video game matches.