Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Time: What can we take to improve it?

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Jahikoi

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I'm not going to mention the length of time in rounds here.



The problem I want to adress/see adressed is the actions taken after time has been called. Time limits are 100% essential to prevent rounds from going over time, but the state of the game is currently the winner after time is not actually representative of the player that would have won the game itself; especially in sudden death.


My first suggestion is as such: That if a game goes to sudden death, the player who would have played first if the game were not sudden death STILL plays first. You may say 'but this gives that player an unfair advantage!' but it's only fair to player A, if they win the first game and then lose the second game, to go first in game 3; regardless of whether it's 6 prizes or 1 prize. You earn that by winning the first game.



My second suggestion, which is far more 'radical' than the first suggestion, we implement draws. What is that? Well, if anybody here has played Magic, they would already understand the system.

What 'draws' would entail is that players who finish game 2 and are tied 1-1 after time is called do NOT start a game of sudden death. If player A wins game 1, the second game counts as a win if four prizes have been taken (the same way that it does currently). Lastly, if time is called AFTER the start of game 3, the game does not count unless a player has taken more than 4 prizes (similarly to how the time works now). If it's in game 3 and a player has not taken 4 or more prizes, the game ends as a draw.

The other thing that is big with the system is 'intentional draws'. What that is, is that if two players are 3-0 in a 4 round tournament that they can 'choose' to draw; leaving them at 3 wins, 0 losses, and 1 draw each. What this does is it also rewards players who perform well.


What does this improve? Well, it's not as simple as donking your opponent in sudden death as to who wins the game. Also, games can be more representative rather than a new game entirely.

For example, with the old system:

In game 3, Player A opens with a Zekrom EX. Player B opens with a Thundurus and two Tynamo. Player A attaches DCE and passes, having no supporter or trainer. Player B uses collector, getting guys, attaching, dual ball, etc, and time is called on his turn. His opponent attaches an energy, catchers a tynamo and kills it; still with no supporter. On player B's second turn of the game, it is the final turn of the game. Unable to KO Zekrom EX in one turn, Player B loses - 5 prizes to 6.

In the new system: The same as above happens, but the game ends in a draw.

Also:
Time is called, and you are playing durant. Now, you don't get horribly screwed over when a game goes to time; or you have to play sudden death.





(I could also go on to 'first turn' suggestions, but we all know how non-constructive those are. Or prize-card penalties for decks which don't deal with prizes. Those can be saved for another day.)

Edit: Title should have been 'What steps can we take' or 'what can we do'; but now it's a combination of both...
 
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Draws have been done before.

They were abused. Badly. At all levels and in every age group.

Draws are no longer allowed.
 
I like the timing rule now. The only thing I'd change is that in top cut I'd have it be +5 or +7. You are playing 3 games, there is no reason that the +3 should be the same in top cut as it is in swiss.

Drew
 
Why experiment with new rules instead of getting the problems on their roots?
Your first suggestion wouldn't be necessary if we got a more balanced starting rule.

About ties, as Bullados said, they can be abused a lot. And with the small top cut numbers we have since 2008 it would be even worse than back then when draws were possible.

Also:
Time is called, and you are playing durant. Now, you don't get horribly screwed over when a game goes to time; or you have to play sudden death.
Durant is too strong already, at least if taking into account how easy to play it is. You don't need to boost it further. Also, a Durant match shouldn't go into time. If it does, players are probably very slow or got both bad starts.

However, if you apply this argument to setup decks like Chandelure, it's valid.
 
*shrug* draws.

There are plenty of us who believe that the removal of draws created more problems than it fixed. That any difficulty with alleged collusion during the last round of swiss could have been addressed just in the last round of swiss and not for every round. Magic has been around much longer than pokemon typically has smaller top cuts and managed to retain draws along with all their benefits to tournament scheduling - sure the DCI had to provide a disincentive to ID the last round and critics can say it was a long time coming but they still recognise that the benefits of having draws on tournament timing is too important to abandon.

It always makes me smile that the tournament rules forbid determining the outcome of a match by flipping a coin yet single prize sudden death is essentially a coin flip.
 
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Keep in mind that intentional draws are used in Magic for logistical reasons, not because it's better for the actual game. Intentional draws were removed from MTGO with the update to v3 about 3-4 years ago.

I've talked to some world class Magic players, they generally feel like Wizards of the Coast would 100% ban intentional draws if the logistics permitted it. The fact that MTGO uses a chess clock allows for the ban of intentional draws, but because it's impossible logistically to get a chess clock on every table in a real life tournament, intentional draws are the next best alternative.
 
sure the DCI had to provide a disincentive to ID the last round and critics can say it was a long time coming but they still recognise that the benefits of having draws on tournament timing is too important to abandon.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I T4d a GPT not too long ago an ID'd the last 2 rounds of swiss. During Innistrad sealed season I played in a fair number of events (somehow got enough PWP for 1 round bye in GPs this season!) and never saw anyone that "should've" ID'd choosing not to.
 
Didn't the DCI introduce the higher seeded player having choice as to who goes first in the first round of the top cut?
 
Didn't the DCI introduce the higher seeded player having choice as to who goes first in the first round of the top cut?

Oh, yes. I haven't been to a bigger event since then. I would be surprised if, say, a 7-0 wouldn't go for a double ID in a 9 round swiss though. A glance at the most recent GP coverage confirms everyone who "should" have ID'd did.
 
Didn't the DCI introduce the higher seeded player having choice as to who goes first in the first round of the top cut?

From what I understand, going first is not as big of an advantage in Magic as it is in Pokemon. Because Magic has smaller cuts, guaranteeing a spot in top cut is more important than risking your spot for the slight advantage of going first.

Even in Pokemon, the advantage of going first is largely overstated (especially with N in the format). For example, I went first in 2 games out of 8 in the Swiss rounds at Philly Regionals, accumulating a 7-1 record. The only round I lost, I went first. Over a whole season this year (114 matches), I actually have a higher win rate going second than going first, (75.0% going first, 77.8% going second).
 
Didn't the DCI introduce the higher seeded player having choice as to who goes first in the first round of the top cut?
Not really a drawback given these two little bits...
Oh, yes. I haven't been to a bigger event since then. I would be surprised if, say, a 7-0 wouldn't go for a double ID in a 9 round swiss though. A glance at the most recent GP coverage confirms everyone who "should" have ID'd did.

From what I understand, going first is not as big of an advantage in Magic as it is in Pokemon. Because Magic has smaller cuts, guaranteeing a spot in top cut is more important than risking your spot for the slight advantage of going first.

Even in Pokemon, the advantage of going first is largely overstated (especially with N in the format). For example, I went first in 2 games out of 8 in the Swiss rounds at Philly Regionals, accumulating a 7-1 record. The only round I lost, I went first. Over a whole season this year (114 matches), I actually have a higher win rate going second than going first, (75.0% going first, 77.8% going second).

When you start talking about gaming the tournament rather than playing the game, I have a real problem with that. When you start talking about everybody at the top tables drawing for the last 2 or 3 rounds to ensure their spot in the top cut, I have a real problem with that. One of the reasons I really like Pokemon is that, for the most part, the games are played at the table, not with the scoreboard. I feel that instituting draws back into the game, even if you disallow them for the later rounds (something that might or might not be too complex for even some of the Judges, not to mention the players), you're taking away from something that I think makes the game of Pokemon really special.
 
Pokemon does not want Draws, I play in MTG - Yes a Draw is better than a loss, but you can abuse it either way. I personally like the win or loss thing in Pokemon.
 
Didn't the DCI introduce the higher seeded player having choice as to who goes first in the first round of the top cut?



Just to adress this point: If both players risk losing cut if they lose, they will basically never draw. (The difference between a draw and a loss when you are 10-2 is HUGE)


If both players are in, (Say, you're 12-1 in a 14 round tournament) they can play it out.


The only case in which it's a problem is where one person is 100% in and gets paired down against someone who needs to win and be in. In the old system, they would draw and both would get in. With the new system, you just play it out.

It's not a big change. It's not like going first in magic is anywhere near as game changing as it is in pokemon...
 
you don't need both players to have to not lose in the last round to avoid IDs. As long as the pairing is such that one player in the pair has to win to make the cut then IDs are dramatically reduced. DCI Reporter actually makes IDs easier since the top tables do have the currently strongest players. TOM pairs randomly within the group of players with the same match record so table number is a weaker indicator of ID safety.

That magic GP in Manchester 1031 players : 15 swiss rounds T8 cut. [Top two tables ID'd into the cut but after 15 swiss rounds three of the four were guaranteed t8 regardless of outcome from R15]

More...

Given that I don't know how pokemon will ever be able to even out the coin flip advantage at the start of the game I expect that giving the higher seeded player choice as to who starts would all but eliminate IDs in pokemon.

Its old history now but with hindsight it can be seen that POP did not *have* to ban draws to address the ID complaints.


===========

I actually don't care either way about draws. I do care about changes that reduce the amount of time that players are actually playing or changes that tend to result in round overruns.
 
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Given that I don't know how pokemon will ever be able to even out the coin flip advantage at the start of the game I expect that giving the higher seeded player choice as to who starts would all but eliminate IDs in pokemon.

A couple things to respond to this:
  • Under a championship point system, if an intentional draw would guarantee my place in top cut, I would never forego the intentional draw just so I can go first in top cut. The benefit of actually making cut (and thus getting more championship points) is not worth the risk of missing cut if you lose.
  • Let's say an intentional draw gets my opponent into top cut, but I'm already guaranteed a spot. As a player with a reputation to uphold, I do not want to be the ____ who refuses the intentional draw from an opponent (especially if the opponent is a friend), thus screwing him out of top cut. To me, being a dreamcrusher only makes enemies over time, and that alone is not worth the marginal advantage of going first.
  • In a format with more donks, going first is more important. In today's format, donking is so uncommon that the advantage of going first isn't as great as people say it is. (I agree that there still is an advantage, but people tend to overstate that advantage because of confirmation bias. If a player loses going second, he/she will think "Darn, if I had only gone first, I would've won." But, if a player wins going second, he/she is unlikely to think "Hmm, I went second and still won, maybe the first turn advantage isn't what I thought it was.")
 
To be fair, donks are still kind of prevalent with CMT and Tyrogue, and the new Tornadus EX could also make a pretty mean donk deck (it might even come to the point where a lone Genie start might not be safe).

But it was probably worst/not much better in the past, I have no clue. :p
 
To put going first in perspective:

Two players have similar starts - a Tynamo and a Thunderus.

Whoever goes first not only attacks their opponent's tynamo first (with catcher) as well as getting to evolve their tynamo before their opponent gets a chance to evolve.


It's the same thing in sudden death, except instead of getting a good advantage, the game _ends_. Draws are certainly not perfect but in my opinion the alternatives are even worse. Have you ever seen a new player truly happy that they lose a game that they were winning due to time? to have that game drawn would be far more fair.
 
Never mind all the stuff about intentional draw abuse . . . it just seems to me that in a timed game a draw can be a legitimate result/reflection of the play.

More legit than forcing an outcome via sudden death anyway.

It's the Pokemon equivalent of a penalty shoot-out and should only be used in top cut when a result is needed.
 
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