The card is actually very balanced and really important for set up decks. The $200 plus price tag is not and very discouraging for newer players. I have 8 decks for the November 8th rulings built and 7 of them run Tropical Beach. Pokemon really needs to start seriously looking at some ways to make this card more attainable. Even those of us who have Tropical Beach don't want to go to tournaments with 800+ dollars in our pockets.
Tropical Beach is good for the game...however the price tag is not.
- Thread starter Jaeger
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losjackal
Technical Administrator
From previous discussions, it seems that selling it as a promo card in a blister pack makes the most sense, because it can keep its BW28 or BW50 designation and rotate out at the same time as those. It could have the same artwork, but be unstamped so that the ones given out at Worlds remain more collectible. It will cause a mad rush to be purchased in stores, bringing money to TPCi, so obviously not having distribution problems like Plasma Landorus BW79 would be essential.
Everyone who have owned Beaches for a while will be slightly sad because the value of theirs would theoretically go down. But we also know the value will inevitably drop when it rotates anyway.
People who have bought Beaches recently (since the announced rule change which drove price up more) will be the most bummed, but they too also know that new promos can hit the market at any time, and the secondary market is volatile (look how fast Catcher dropped in price.)
Everyone else will be happy with a product release like this.
Everyone who have owned Beaches for a while will be slightly sad because the value of theirs would theoretically go down. But we also know the value will inevitably drop when it rotates anyway.
People who have bought Beaches recently (since the announced rule change which drove price up more) will be the most bummed, but they too also know that new promos can hit the market at any time, and the secondary market is volatile (look how fast Catcher dropped in price.)
Everyone else will be happy with a product release like this.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
I didn't go so far as to say that. I chimed in to suggest a very viable possibility of what could be done. Making the right decision of whether it should or should not would have to factor in information that neither you or I have. For instance:
- How much should the blister pack cost, and what else would be included in it?
- What is the soonest it could be on the shelves?
- How many would need to be produced, and will the distribution chain be able to support restocking it enough to satisfy demand?
- Will BW50 be rotated at the end of the season?
- What other cards might be coming in the next set or two that would cause a deck builder to NOT opt for Beaches in their deck?
It will take a certain amount of work to figure that out and make it happen. Looking at your original post, let's review the reasons you offer:
- The lack of availably is discouraging for new players.
- A player like you has the cards, but is uncomfortable carrying them into a tournament.
That's not persuasive enough, IMO. I'm of the mind that new players can deal with not readily having access to the most prestigious card in the format.
I'll be quite frank: if my child were just starting to compete, I might be miffed too that a card cost this much, and seems to be required. We experienced that to some extent with Luxray Lv. X. So I can't totally empathize with those families now, especially since Tropical Beach is a Worlds Trophy card! Not everyone should have access to everything. That's life.
So it comes back to: what's better for the game? Leave things as they are, or do a certain amount of work to put it into production? We just don't have the necessary information to make that decision, and I don't feel strongly enough one way or another to make the case for either. But I'll gladly help analyze suggestions of how it could happen.
I've said it before, but at a bare minimum it (and all WC promos) should be exempt from the foreign language card rules. If a tournament-legal card is by definition going to be so severely out of proportion in terms of language distribution, the playing field should be leveled as a risk reduction strategy.
Now, to really solve the problem, they would have to reprint it. That means some people will have to take a bath (or at least a shower) on the value of the card-and that's fine by me. In my opinion this whole situation is an embarrassment to the game and the brand as a whole, and they would benefit from being rectified. To be fair, it's not the worst problem this game has ever had, but I really do feel we'd be better off if there was more of the card out there.
By the way, the best solution (I think) would have been to make it a built-in game mechanic for generation 6.
Now, to really solve the problem, they would have to reprint it. That means some people will have to take a bath (or at least a shower) on the value of the card-and that's fine by me. In my opinion this whole situation is an embarrassment to the game and the brand as a whole, and they would benefit from being rectified. To be fair, it's not the worst problem this game has ever had, but I really do feel we'd be better off if there was more of the card out there.
By the way, the best solution (I think) would have been to make it a built-in game mechanic for generation 6.
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Otaku
Active Member
I seek clarification.
If I removed the supporting text when I trimmed down what you said, I apologize; I saw no need to quote an entire post when it was this chunk that was the issue. Tropical Beach is a prestigious card because TPCi decided to make it prestigious ("indicative of or conferring prestige" or "having a high reputation; honored; esteemed").
I find your position indefensible. I am honestly at a loss for words because I truly cannot understand anyone taking that your position that this should become a game where elite players are deserving of extra, manufactured advantage over the rest of the player base.
signofzeta
New Member
Wouldn't it be better if tropical beach that is handed out at worlds were super blinged out, with tons of holofoil treatment on it, and another card with a different name, but having exactly the same rules text as tropical beach be released in booster sets? This way, tropical beach can still be the "handed out to players via a tournament" card.
Elite players deserve the rewards that come with being elite. They earned it. Do you have a problem with people that earned a trip to Nats when you didn't? That trip was probably worth a $1000 or more in total. So, you get into Worlds in '11 and '12 and top 32d and you'd get 3 cards worth a total of $750. Thats the reward for achieving that. If you need it to compete, spend the $750. Its not about being able to compete, its just about money. They earned it and you didn't. That's life.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
The card effect for Tropical Beach was invented years ago. Only in light of recent rule changes is it becoming somewhat advantageous to be included in a deck. Here is my post explaining why I believe the advantage of Beach is small.
Your statement makes it sound like this "manufactured advantage" was just rolled out to elite players yesterday. Tell me this: the day after Ross Cawthon put Tropical Beach in his Worlds deck and took 2nd place with it, where was the outrage? Did it exist back then? Why hasn't the game died in the past two years with all of the new players getting discouraged they don't get a Tropical Beach?
The Elite players were awarded a trophy card that happens to be useful for game play.
Other players can purchase this card from players willing to sell it. The price has fluctuated over the years.
There is nothing unfair about this system.
Unless you wish to mandate that trophy cards should be unplayable.
Or if they are playable, that they shouldn't be exclusive.
Those are changes you could argue for, but no, I don't have a problem with the current situation.
This is an idiotic statement, since a LARGE portion of the players using Tropical Beach did NOT earn it, they purchased it. Probably for a lot of money.
This might surprise people, but there are some players out here who are very good, but don't have a lot of money. Tropical Beach is putting us at a HUGE disadvantage.
Not that I want to call myself very good, but I at least think I'm a threat at events, but without Beach, I am running into brick walls here. I can barely pay to attend events and have the cards I need to compete: Adding a 200+ dollar promo card is FAR beyond my reach.
And to the inevitable "Why didn't you buy it before if you are truly a competitive player?" question: I didn't because I didn't need to. Being a somewhat financially responsible adult, I didn't drop the 70-ish dollars on it when it was "cheap" because I didn't need the card to compete, nor did I even really want the card in my lists.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
Raen, let me put you in two situations:
1. You are paired against an opponent who has Tropical Beach in their deck.
2. You are paired against an opponent who does not have Tropical Beach in their deck.
Can you please explain where the HUGE disadvantage manifests itself?
The argument was that elite players that earned the card should not have an advantage by being elite. They do not have an advantage, they simply earned the $750 that you did not. I'm sorry if you are $750 short of your life goals, but I don't feel that is Pokemon's nor the community's problem. I have never paid for a Tropical Beach as my son earned them, but if I had to buy them I would not feel it is unfair that I earn a living such that I can spend that kind of money on a card game while other people can't. That's life too.
I think the disadvantage largely comes from limited deck choices. Without Tropical Beach, I am mostly restricted to fast, aggressive decks that do not require extensive setup. With the Catcher errata and first turn rule changes, that sort of deck takes a pretty big hit, whereas decks like Blastoise (an already fantastic deck) get better, but require Tropical Beach to be set up.
Not having Tropical Beach probably isn't an insurmountable obstacle to competing (saying I'm put at a HUGE disadvantage is probably exaggeration), but it is a frustrating barrier.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
Thanks, let me be more specific though. Let's believe what Jaeger says, in that 7 out of 8 decks play better with Tropical Beach in them. But you take one of those decks and have to swap Tropical Beach out for other cards.
Now, sit down in front of an opponent that:
1. Is playing a deck with Tropical Beach in it.
2. Is playing a deck without Tropical Beach in it.
My point is, for #1, you get a partial advantage, when your opponent puts it in play. Your purportedly HUGE disadvantaged is mitigated by your opponent putting it into play for you. And now you had a different advantage in that you were able to fill those card slots with other tech cards.
And for #2, either your opponent is "crippled" in their setup as well, not having Tropical Beach, in which case you are not at a relatively HUGE disadvantage at all. Or, if they are playing a fast, aggressive deck as you point out, in which case you are fending for yourself. But at that point, it's hard to criticize TPCi that you can't afford Tropical Beach, when you could choose to play this fast, aggressive deck too.
So….to add something completely new….news broke out tonight in Japan that both Tropical Beach and Champions Festival are prohibited in the Battle Festa tournaments:
http://www.pokemon-card.com/event/card-event/battle_festa/
You make a pretty good point with your analysis there, I will admit. There is still something very frustrating about the feeling of not controlling my own fate, but maybe I have blown the advantage out of proportion. I still would like the realistic option to play the card though, of course, and I feel that's ideal.
However, the news of the cards banning in Japan (at least for these tournaments) is very interesting. Will we see that here? I'd be surprised if we didn't. And, in a weird way, that may actually be the worst option here. Then setup decks just can't be played by anyone.
Here's what it comes down to for me (as a PokéMom). My son either earned Tropical Beach with an invitation to Worlds (which requires dedication and a certain amount of $$ from our family budget), OR he earns the money to purchase it. My son is a competitive player - he has earned (and I do mean earned) his invitation for the past three years. He deserves to gain a benefit from his years of practice, money spent in buying or trading for cards, and travel. Why should someone who decides to join the game *today*, have the same benefit as my son who has been practicing and paying for the past three years? My son plays at a COMPETITIVE level. This is NOT AYSO Pokémon. If it was, I would agree with the level playing field for all, no matter when they joined the game.
The other way to get a Tropical Beach is by volunteering. Not all of us with Tropical Beaches fall into the "elite" category. I earned a Tropical Beach myself at Worlds by volunteering for eight hours since I have no shot at qualifying. Again, for me, it comes down to what you can give back to the game, instead of what the game can give to you.
The other way to get a Tropical Beach is by volunteering. Not all of us with Tropical Beaches fall into the "elite" category. I earned a Tropical Beach myself at Worlds by volunteering for eight hours since I have no shot at qualifying. Again, for me, it comes down to what you can give back to the game, instead of what the game can give to you.
vaporeon
Moderator
I'm starting to see a pattern here. The big advantage here is players who have beach have more options then those without it. The game can be played without it but with the catcher nerf, decks that rely on stage 2 energy acceleration become broken. The fact that they have advantage makes the game somewhat unplayable. It should not be if you have beach, play a broken energy acceleration or play darkrai/plasma. I'm looking forward to playing a pidgeot deck this format and not having beach in it will slow me down or I can just play a deck with big basics. That should not be the only option to playing the game.
I'm all for beach being printed as a promo card without the stamp. TPCi needs to fix this issue with the game because players with beach will have deck advantages over those without it. There was no need to keep Catcher as elusive as it was and they knew about it. While I do believe those that earned the card deserve to play it but this card not in the hands of the majority directly affects deck choice at tournaments and that's not fair.
I'm all for beach being printed as a promo card without the stamp. TPCi needs to fix this issue with the game because players with beach will have deck advantages over those without it. There was no need to keep Catcher as elusive as it was and they knew about it. While I do believe those that earned the card deserve to play it but this card not in the hands of the majority directly affects deck choice at tournaments and that's not fair.
The other point that should be made is that there is a perception (at least somewhat deserved in my opinion*) that the card is a "slip-up" and the creators underestimated its potential, believing it to be of little competitive worth.
*Without knowing the full story it's hard to say how deserved. I'd love to know if this was cut from a set or created on its own.
*Without knowing the full story it's hard to say how deserved. I'd love to know if this was cut from a set or created on its own.
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