Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Ugly Cup at Canadian Nationals -- A question to Players

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ugly psyducky

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In light of the announcement regarding the format change for the LCQ this year and the changes to the Prize support for Nationals (i.e. the removal of one paid trip per age category), it seems that I may need to reconsider the underlying goal for holding the Ugly Cup. The underlying rationale for holding the Ugly Cup and providing the financial support for the prizing has been to help enhance the player experience and to promote the game for Canadian players.

First let me start by saying that I in no means intend this year to remove my financial support for the game and the goal I state above; but I do want to make sure that I at least hear opinions in an open forum about how it is believed best applied.

For as long as I've run it I have had some players and organizers try to convince me that I should put my financial support behind augmenting the prize pool for Nationals and I have resisted this, by arguing that the game is enhanced by having a separate tournament with interesting formats outside those allowed in Sanctioned tournaments. But with both the new reality in paid trips and the LCQ format I am willing to reconsider that position.

So there are two Questions

1) Would the players prefer that my financial support be provided to the players who place 2nd at Nats? (understanding that I would need to spread this support among all 3 age groups -- so I am not necessarily offering "full rides" to the 2nd place finishers).

2) If there were no significant prizes (i.e. trip(s) to the LCQ) would players still participate in an Ugly Cup Tournament held on the 2nd day of Nats (Yes -- Nats will be a two day event this year).

Obviously I appreciate all feedback.

Ugly Out
 
You bring up a valid point about the LCQ. I have no opinion on how the prize should be awarded. I think I speak for most of our player base by saying that we are extremely grateful that this is offered.

Most importantly, I would play in an Ugly Cup side event regardless of prize support. It always makes for an interesting format and I look forward to it (adds more of a 'fun' element to the game as opposed to a competitive one).
 
No matter what you choose, Canada will be blessed for your support again. (This coming from an American) Keep up the good work Ugly!

Keith
 
What if you do one for whoever wants to play and have some cool card/item/etc prizes for that, and one for the 9 non-winners who made T4 and the winner of that one gets the trip (since they'd already have the invite to go with it)? Yeah, 9's a crummy number, but just a thought.
 
^ that is a great idea. If he did two he could have the one during top cut and the winner of that could enter the other as the 10th spot.. which would make it more even.

I would prefer the support to be to someone who has an invite as it makes the most sense, I would still participate in the ugly cup regardless. In fact I would even be willing to pay an entrance fee to help pay towards support for a player with an invite.

I really truly do appreciate this Terry
 
like reed has already said, the canadian pokemon community is very grateful of your generosity. Whatever you feel is appropiate is fine by me.
 
As everyone has stated, your support is incredibly appreciated Terry, and we all will be extremely grateful no matter whawhat you decide.

I like the idea of spreading it across the 3 2nd place finishers.

However, what I would prefer is something that involves the 9 non winners who have invites, PLUS includes players who are in the mix for ratings (I realize it is tough to decide how to do this, example would be players who are top 50 in North America prior to Nationals, or are above 1800 prior to nationals or something like that. IDK)

Or honestly I would be completely happy if it was done the exact same way it was done last year, an open tournament. Those crazy formats are really fun and a breath of fresh air to players constantly playing the same decks for the entire year.

Thanks a lot for doing this, I know whatever you will decide will be appreciated by everyone.
 
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I know I have yet to play in the Ugly Cup, which is quite unfortunate....I however completly love what you do! (sooo awesome)

However I'm going to vote against the majority, and vote for a tournament where the big prize is availible to the masses. What a better way to make up for a crummy nats preformance then by winning a trip to worlds? =D
 
I didn't know they cut out the paid trip for second place.... that's unfortunate. I think the best option is to have the 9 2nd-4th players go for it, but have a separate tournament for everyone else who wants to play
 
Thanks for the feedback so far (also more would be greatly appreciated)

I note in my intial post I wasn't quite as clear about the impact of a Two Day Nats on the Ugly Cup. The plan is for some if not all of the Top Cut Games to be played during the second day. Logistically the Ugly Cup has to start reasonably early in the Second Day in order that we wrap it up in a timely enough manner to allow those with flights back home to Western Canada (and likely to meet the time constraints the venue will put on us to clear the room). These constraints, leads to players in the later round of the Top Cut (i.e. those who will have earned Invites) very likely being excluded from the Cup.

Bearing this in mind, I'm pretty sure the T9 + Ranking Invite type formats proposed above would be very difficult to pull off from a logistics perspective. So far if I read the majority of the posts correctly

1) Players prefer that trip support somehow be given to those with invites
2) Players not in the Top Cut would like an interesting format activity like the Cup and would particpate regardless of the prize support.
 
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I know my input may be discounted, since I never had the chance to support or play in any of your Ugly Cup events. And to be honest, I have no real idea of the logistics of any suggestions I may have here, however this is what I think would be good: Since your events cater to the better players who can think on their feet for any of your proposed formats, I believe you should have an invite structure. YOU should determine who is allowed to attend. Now I know this may cause a stir among the Canadian pokemon community, but I'd like to explain. You see, Terry, you have to be happy with the outcome that you envision - no one else. If you would be happy opening it up to any and all comers, then so be it. But honestly, even though I don't know you very well, I don't think you would be happy with that. So I'm going to suggest this .... that you invite those players with a rating over 1800, AND those who placed high at Nationals (you can determine who are eligible in your own estimation according to your standards - whether they already have invites through TPCi or not). Perhaps some of those eligible for your invites may not be able to attend and play in your event, but for the most part, you will be sure to have the best Canadian players that you can bring together all in one place. I know you want to see the best players from Canada at World's, just like we all do, so hopefully this will help. Terry, no matter what you decide, your contribution will be very much appreciated - even by those of us who cannot attend or play in any of your events.

It's unfortunate that there is declining prize support, and less fairness (at least in my opinion) involved with pokemon, but your contribution sincerely helps. Along with continuing frustration, that was part of the reason I retired. However those of you who are left, must adapt, or suffer frustration as well.

Can I make a suggestion for next year Terry? Here's what I would do: In the summertime, after this year's event is over, get in touch with all the league leaders in Canada. ALL OF THEM! Tell them about your experiences with the Ugly Cup, and show them how important the contribution to Canadians is, and ask for their support. Tell them that your contribution will stay the same, but that you are opening up the opportunity for all Canadians to support the same cause - since TPCi looks to be unable to continue their support. Ask them to run at least one charity event to raise money for the same cause. That way, perhaps you may be able to expand the Ugly to include a trip for all 3 age groups. Or hey, have you thought of corporate sponsorship? Perhaps marketing to "Canadian" companies to expand some support. You're a force to be reconned with if you want to be. There are some wonderful people out in Alberta who I'm sure are already primed to help, since that's what they are already doing, and have done so for a couple years now. Let me know if you'd like some contacts.

That's a little more than my 2 cents, but hopefully it helps.

Edit: Have you possibly considered that with an invite structure to the Ugly Cup, you can even possibly run it the day before Nats. Most people are more apt to be able to attend and play the day before nats than after due to flights and such. However that might mean that if you want to include those in the top cut at Nats that you run a preliminary Ugly Cup the day before, and run some finals the last day of Nats with those you see fit to include - more or less a final playoff. Again logistics might be insurmountable, but it's a suggestion nevertheless.
 
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Terry, I have to agree with Garret for his idea aimed higher rated/top 4 nats. As much as a person might love a trip to San Diego, it is better for Canada if we have the strongest players playing at Worlds (you can't play in Worlds without an invite), so it should definitely be something like top X rated players in Canada before nationals (2? 5? 10?) and 2nd-4th at nats invited (no exceptions). I don't know if there is a way to break it up into 16 or 32 players but, I am sure you could figure something out (the numbers will change because it very possible for a top rated player to do well at nats).

Example of ugly cup invites

MA (ratings before nationals
Top 23 players in Canada (ma, jr, sr combined before nats)
2nd, 3rd 4th at nats (ma, jr, sr)

=32 players

All paired together, 5 rds, top 8.

That seems like the best way to me. Also, for prize support, you could also cut the hotel and 2nd trip (based off last years prize structure) to allow multiple people to get trip awards (if possible).

I'm just throwing those ideas around but, I am extememly appreciative of your generosity, it definitely helps players a lot.

Idea: You could also run a separate ugly cup for those who can't participate in the "top 32" ugly cup for fun (just so everyone can have an "ugly" day :p)

Thanks again Terry,
-Zach
 
Rating is a horrible indicator of skill in this country.

How many premier tournaments are there in Ontario? I'm sure it's a lot more than the 5-6 BRs, 6 CCs, and 1 Provincial that Alberta players get. Plus, GTA players can drop down into the NY area fairly easily. I think BC has similar numbers to us, but at least they get a Regional also. Sure, that leads into the player population location thing, but that's not the point at the moment.

All I'm saying is that due to the wide inequality in available tournaments (reason irrelevant), rating is a lousy relative indicator of skill between players in different segments of the country.
 
Mystery Thing said:
All I'm saying is that due to the wide inequality in available tournaments (reason irrelevant), rating is a lousy relative indicator of skill between players in different segments of the country.
Click to expand...

Strongly agree.

As you may have noticed I have endeavoured extremely hard to try and make the tournament and it's prizes available as evenly as possible across the country understanding we in the GTA are a highly blessed community with easy access to numerous touraments and Nats in our backyard.

===
I think the posts have so far elucidated that for the majority of the players (and I acknowledge the one exception to this - who clearly indicates why I have always run the Cup as I have), that people prefer that the trip(s) should go to players with invites (or at least those who have the greatest chance of getting invites).

However, on the second part of the question. I am still unsure that if the Trips were to be awarded as part of the main event, what the participation in the Ugly Cup event would look like {and trust me the format is / would be even more warped than normal for this year}.
===

I know there are a lot of players / judges / league leaders out there that I haven't heard from, so speak now of forever {or at least until next season} hold your peace.

Ugly Out
 
ugly psyducky said:
Strongly agree.

As you may have noticed I have endeavoured extremely hard to try and make the tournament and it's prizes available as evenly as possible across the country understanding we in the GTA are a highly blessed community with easy access to numerous touraments and Nats in our backyard.

===
I think the posts have so far elucidated that for the majority of the players (and I acknowledge the one exception to this - who clearly indicates why I have always run the Cup as I have), that people prefer that the trip(s) should go to players with invites (or at least those who have the greatest chance of getting invites).

However, on the second part of the question. I am still unsure that if the Trips were to be awarded as part of the main event, what the participation in the Ugly Cup event would look like {and trust me the format is / would be even more warped than normal for this year}.
===

I know there are a lot of players / judges / league leaders out there that I haven't heard from, so speak now of forever {or at least until next season} hold your peace.

Ugly Out
Click to expand...

Well, if I received a travel award (in any way) for CDN Nats, it is possible that I won't stay for the 2nd day considering Nats is a lonnnnnnnggggg day if you go deep in the competition. I love fun formats but, if my goal of Worlds (invite and trip) is met, I wouldn't necessarily want to go play Pokemon the next day instead of relaxing lol. I think the way you will get the most attendance is if you actually dont do awards at nats.

Perhaps an invite to the Ugly Cup would be asking players if they are in the run for a ratings invite (and will actually try to achieve it) and the 2nd-4th at nats. I really don't know how well this would work or Joe different it is from my last idea, but my opinion is players with invites should be fighting for trips (either that or stronger players who whiffed the invite)
 
smacktack15 said:
Well, if I received a travel award (in any way) for CDN Nats, it is possible that I won't stay for the 2nd day considering Nats is a lonnnnnnnggggg day if you go deep in the competition. )
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Zack

Top Cut for Nats IS on the 2nd Day... There won't be any T-XX players known by the start of the Ugly Cup. Hence the concern. So the Question is if you don't Top Cut, would you stay to play...

Ugly
 
I'm not sold ENTIRELY that rating is not an effective indicator, obviously people from the east have an easier time, but for example many serious players in BC and Alberta played in 2 State championships, and so did Curtis, who's rating after cities and BRs may have been slightly higher than ours, but he won both states he went to so his position at the top of Canada is currently 100% justified, no matter his location.

BC is even less, I think we had 3 BRs and 3 Cities here, but again the serious players make sure that they get themselves to other tournaments (I realize we have an easier option of Washington that for example players in Alberta may not have)

But I think (whether you guys may think it is slightly biased or not) that ratings (this year) are doing a DECENT job. Of course, the east gets a better chance to boost their ratings with less effort, and although the west may not have the same opportunity, there is enough out there for us I believe to succeed.

Given the east's advantage, the Ugly Cup could for example pick the top rated players from each province, if you guys think that ratings cannot be compared inter-provincially. I definitely like the idea of involving ratings/players with invites in the Ugly Cup so I think this could be one way to do it if you do not think comparing Canada-wide is fair.
 
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ugly psyducky said:
I think the posts have so far elucidated that for the majority of the players (and I acknowledge the one exception to this - who clearly indicates why I have always run the Cup as I have), that people prefer that the trip(s) should go to players with invites (or at least those who have the greatest chance of getting invites).

However, on the second part of the question. I am still unsure that if the Trips were to be awarded as part of the main event, what the participation in the Ugly Cup event would look like {and trust me the format is / would be even more warped than normal for this year}.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that one would be me? =D

I've have no idea how large your prize fund has gotten/will be by the time nats rolls around. However what could be done is a hybrid system.

Put half of the prize pool towards being split up among the three second place finishers of nationals. And leave the remaining 50% for the ugly cup participants (With unrestricted entry). Depending on what you decided to use as a format, it often takes a few hours (if not more) of testing / getting a feel for the format. As such I know I wouldnt be as willing to put as much effort into my testing if there wasn't going to be any prizes / significant prizes.....I may rather elect to spend time with family / watch the top cut games.
 
ugly psyducky said:
Zack

Top Cut for Nats IS on the 2nd Day... There won't be any T-XX players known by the start of the Ugly Cup. Hence the concern. So the Question is if you don't Top Cut, would you stay to play...

Ugly
Click to expand...

Really, I had no clue that nats is a 2 day event for us (I thought you were just calling the Ugly Cup day 2 :p). If I don't make cut, odds are I would play :D

Edit: where does it say that nats is 2 days?
 
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