US Prerelease prize structure change

[SteveP]

SteveP: What will be a more positive event for a new player? Seeing a great reward at the end of tourney when it ends? I liked that the 1st time I saw it. Giving no extra boosters to winners is counter productive IMHO. Its great that PUI is giving everyone a few extra boosters. The better experience would be for the "more experienced" players WELCOMING the new player(s) to their league, giving them tips, some advice on deck building, simply spending some time w/ them. That will draw them back again and again.

You aren't serious, are you? That may happen with a few new players, but certainly not for the majority, or for younger players.

I'm hearing that many PTOs are being considerate and beefing-up the prizes for top players. Our PTO is doing it, probably with 1 extra booster for each time a player wins. Some would argue that isn't even enough for the winner. PTOs that don't beef-up prize support for the winners will probably hear the feedback from a few disgruntled players. We'll just have to see if those outweight the happiness experienced by the other players.

Pre-releases are NOT championship-like events. The Championship Series will have the big prizes (I assume). Let the top players earn their big prizes at those events.

 

[DarkTyranitar]

Apples and Oranges...

A pre-release at a remote site accomplishes any of these purposes.

1. To split the difference between multiple league/tournament locations so more players can attend (assuming those locations can't get pre-releases by themselves).

2. To incite interest to form leagues/tournaments in the remote location.

3. The normal location is too small to hold a large event. If the normal location is far away, how is that good for the players? Many probably can't travel a great distance to attend such a pre-release.

Any other purpose is ludicrous, and DOESN'T incite new or renewed interest in the game.

Finally, you can't disregard the older, lesser players at the expense of trying to get new players. Retaining older, lesser players, IMO, is more important that trying to get new players. This new prize structure rewards the older, lesser players, PLUS it rewards the new players who might not be so good.

What do YOU think would have a more positive impact on a new player? He shows up, pays his $20, and walks away with nothing else (because he's learning the game and doesn't place high in the standings), OR he walks away with a few extra boosters?

We want new players. By giving them a few extra boosters, regardless of how well they play, is MUCH better than HOPING they'll still want to play after seeing the top players walk away with all the prizes.

Steve,

Once again, you are incorrect with your premises. None of your 3 personal reasons for holding a pre-release at a remote location apply in this case.

I've already stated one of the purposes for this: TO INTRODUCE NEW PLAYERS TO THE GAME. A secondary reason is to give local players a chance to participate in sanctioned events. A third is giving the players a chance to win boosters, or at the very least obtain booster packs at reduced rates.

What STILL could occur is the new player ends up joining a local league, whose members are also participating in the pre-release.

With respect to this being LUDICROUS, this is once again your opinion here, (and you can bring it up with our local TO).

On your comparison of new players to old with respect to the prize changes, you're actually voicing my original point - that old players will benefit less and be turned off by these changes, with new players benefiting more.

Since I've never placed very high in the Pre-releases, I would regard myself as a "lesser player." Regardless of this, though I STILL would prefer things to left as they are in regards to the prizes, since its not actually winning those boosters by placing high, but the OPPORTUNITY to win the boosters that would keep my interest piqued.

This new prize structure is skewed too much to the other side. A happy compromise in which more boosters would still be given to first through 4th or 8th, with everyone who participates receiving an extra booster or two would be more beneficial, (and satisfy more players).

With respect to what would satisfy new players more, with pre-releases and booster drafts they ARE STILL leaving with boosters for their $15 - $20 admission fee. And, to tell you the truth adding a couple extra boosters into the mix for them really isn't going to be that great incentive to continue playing, (imho).

Both of my son's friends who recently accompanied us to 2 different events were very happy just to get what they got. In the one case, with the FR/LG Pre-release the friend did not do well enough to win any additional boosters. However, he still left with the 6 packs that he originally received for the pre-release. He also ended up purchasing some additional boosters, and traded to get some others.

My other son's friend also did not do soo well (in the modified we participated in). However, he still had a GREAT time!

The REAL question here is how much will these changes affect existing players in a negative way?

- Tony

 

[SteveP]

I've already stated one of the purposes for this: TO INTRODUCE NEW PLAYERS TO THE GAME. A secondary reason is to give local players a chance to participate in sanctioned events. A third is giving the players a chance to win boosters, or at the very least obtain booster packs at reduced rates.

These may be reasons, but they're fleeting in nature if the end-purpose doesn't involve retention. BTW, I did cite your first reason as one of mine. My reason was just worded a bit differently. Your second reason is noble. Hopefully, when combined with your first reason, the result will be enough players to form a local league/tournament. Your third reason I feel should be reserved for the Championship Series tournaments. Pre-releases are meant to introduce players to the new cards, not to crown champions (and shower them with prizes).

On your comparison of new players to old with respect to the prize changes, you're actually voicing my original point - that old players will benefit less and be turned off by these changes, with new players benefiting more.

I think you're equating old players to top players. I don't see the two as equal. I agree that some (maybe many) top players are "turned off" by this change.

Since I've never placed very high in the Pre-releases, I would regard myself as a "lesser player." Regardless of this, though I STILL would prefer things to left as they are in regards to the prizes, since its not actually winning those boosters by placing high, but the OPPORTUNITY to win the boosters that would keep my interest piqued.

The term lesser is a relative term. Lesser players at one location may actually be top players at other locations. Your preference to "leave things be" is noted. I just don't believe that preference is shared by the majority of "lesser" players.

This new prize structure is skewed too much to the other side. A happy compromise in which more boosters would still be given to first through 4th or 8th, with everyone who participates receiving an extra booster or two would be more beneficial, (and satisfy more players).

You can't have it both ways (top players still win lots of boosters and other players all get a few boosters). I agree that a few extra boosters for the top players is nice, but not in the same amounts as before. Let those top players get the big prizes at the Championship Series events.

The REAL question here is how much will these changes affect existing players in a negative way?

The proverbial question. Survey says....

 

[DarkTyranitar]

These may be reasons, but they're fleeting in nature if the end-purpose doesn't involve retention. BTW, I did cite your first reason as one of mine. My reason was just worded a bit differently. Your second reason is noble. Hopefully, when combined with your first reason, the result will be enough players to form a local league/tournament. Your third reason I feel should be reserved for the Championship Series tournaments. Pre-releases are meant to introduce players to the new cards, not to crown champions (and shower them with prizes).

Steve, I really love how you can continue to assume that your view on things is the norm or applies to others. What you term "fleeting" has been the norm for us for 1 - 2 years now, with respect to our local Sanctioned Tournaments. Ironically, there has been very little drop-off from those whom regularly attend these local tournaments. If anything, there were quite a few new faces at the event that just took place.

Just so you know, there IS a local League that many of us belong to who regular attend these sanctioned events. Our league meets on Saturdays and the tournaments have had very little impact on it.

In addition to us, there also have been a good number of those who don't belong to any leagues, but who continue to attend the Pre-releases, Booster Drafts and other tournaments. For them, this is the only way they continue to battle against others.

With respect to

...Pre-releases being meant to introduce players to the new cards, not to crown champions (and shower them with prizes)...

how ironic that you would state this. Then, what's your take on PUI replacing booster awards with a trophy at Pre-releases???

I think you're equating old players to top players. I don't see the two as equal. I agree that some (maybe many) top players are "turned off" by this change.

...Although this is not always the case, in general the older players, (i.e. those who continue to play on a regular basis) become the better players. Of course, keep in mind that this concept quickly degrades when you take into consideration that for both Pre-releases and Booster Drafts, much of a players success in the tournament is in fact determined by the cards that they get or draft, (with Pre-releases being the extreme in this case).

The term lesser is a relative term. Lesser players at one location may actually be top players at other locations.

.....Uhhh, yeah??? (Sounds kind of obvious to me.) However, once again you can have a top player who just has bad luck in the boosters that they receive, compared to a new-bee who gets the perfect booster draft and creates a Great deck. As I'm sure you are aware, nothing is etched in stone with respect to "Top" and "Lesser" players in Pre-releases.

Your preference to "leave things be" is noted. I just don't believe that preference is shared by the majority of "lesser" players.

...from a quick polling of those who've responded to this topic it appears that the overall numbers are closer than you think.

You can't have it both ways (top players still win lots of boosters and other players all get a few boosters). I agree that a few extra boosters for the top players are nice, but not in the same amounts as before. Let those top players get the big prizes at the Championship Series events.

Uhhh, yes you can. Reduce the Box of boosters currently being awarded to the top player by 10, take 1 or 2 from the other top seven, and distribute the total to those who did not place in the top 8.

And with respect to CONSISTENT TOP PLAYERS, again, I don't see this being the norm. I'm not sure about you, but I've seen quite a number of different faces come in at the top or in the top 8 at Pre-releases and booster Drafts. Although I will give you that some players do tend to do better than others on a regular basis, there still tends to be a pretty good amount of parity at Pre-releases.

The proverbial question. Survey says....

...Yes, it does, and on that note this is going to be the final posting from me rebutting your statements. If you'd like to continue this little debate of ours, I'd prefer to do it one-on-one, either through email messages or the PMs.

I'm sure those who have been reading this thread for the past couple of pages are starting to get tired of our debate.

- Tony

 

[BJJ763]

One thing i can see happening is Johnny attends a Prerelease and does ok going 3-3. He gets his 4 boosters and 2 POP packs. He hears about a tourney being held later on. He attends and does ok going 3-3 again. Johnny is confused as he's going home empty handed and wonders why?

Without the "extra incentive" for doing well, even at a Prerelease, the wrong message could be gotten.

So Johnny attends only Prereleases as he knows he'll get something no matter what.

 

[Rainbowgym]

BJJ - Just tell Johnny to read the invitations and learn him the difference between a prerelease tournament and a normal one.

Can't see the problem.

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

To have fun, see people you never get to see, and preview the set before anyone else?

 

[The-Mighty-Babel-Fish]

There's a good and a bad side to the new prerelease prize structure IMHO...
GOOD SIDE--> This way everyone get's something, it's more insentive for the players who know they aren't exactly "the best" to show because they KNOW that they're gonna win something, meet people/friends, ect... you know that positve trail...
BAD SIDE--> The "good/best" players who do really well DON'T have extra insentive for doing well (outside of ratings) since they walk away with the same prizes anyways, certain players will stick around for a few rounds then drop and get their prizes and continue to a new flight/side-tourny, ect... you know that negative trail...

I guess, when you think about it, it's more of a even split IF you're in it for the power and the glory (and the prizes). But, what it all comes down to is mentality and your local gaming area. If you go in wanting to do nothing but win, and win big prizes as well, then you'll be disappointed, but if you're going in it to play for the fun of the game, then you shall NEVER be disappointed with this prize set-up. And, in the cases like my local playing environment, the prize structure is PERFECT! There is a lacking-luster number of people who do show up around our area, mainly because of their fear and loathing of always being beaten out, but now with the equality of the prize distribution, almost everyone's excited! (Well, those who know about the set-up anyways...)

Well, that was just my ramblings on the matter, I think I'll let someone else take there turn....
*my fingers are getting cramped, anyways.....>_> lol*

 

[Prime]

The new Pre-Release prize layout favors the medium-skilled to low-skilled players, in which 75% of us are. Instead of walking away with one pack, or sometimes none, we now walk away with four, guaranteed. Of course to the top-tier players, this sounds bad. Their half a box, or one quarter box is now cut down to four packs. But you must look at the overall picture. 75% of the people that show up at a Pre-Release will leave much happier, and will attend more Pre-Releases knowing that they are guaranteed four packs.

We still have many professional tournaments that offer great prizes for the top-tier players. In my opinion, Pre-Releases are events for the mid-low-tier players, in which was truely needed.

 

[Benlugia]

actually...when you look at it, you walk away with 10 packs automatically right? i mean, thats pretty good...15-20 bucks for 10 packs? and 2 pop packs? and a special prerelease promo card? sounds good to me.

 

[P_A]

Venusaur, I'll use your example anyway. 15+20 for gas is 35. How much do you get paid? I hope it's more than $7 per hour. You'll pay that much at least at any concert or entertainment facility, and walk away with nothing to show but being entertained, for however long you were there. For your time- aproximately 5 hours or so, like Benlugia said, you'll walk away with 10 packs of cards, a special promo card, and 2 promo packs guaranteed, AND be entertained. Take your example further: Go to 2 pre-releases aproximately equal distance away from your house, spend $70 dollars, since you have that kind of money, be entertained for 2 days, get 20 packs, meet people you've never played before, get new friends, 20 packs of cards, 2 special promos that may be worth $10, and 8 POP series 1 promos, which could be worth nothing to perhaps $100. Of course this only proves you either have no friends or very cheap friends that go with you to these events without helping out with gas. If they did help out, and you brought 3 friends with you, you really would only be paying $20 each day, and get a much better return on your money. You'd have to go to more than 3 pre-releases that way to equal the same money spent as a box. For my money, I'd rather go to 2 pre-releases with my son and 3 or more of our friends, and be entertained and have a great time for 2 days, than just order a box. Sure you get the same thrill of opening packs, albeit a few less (16), but the entertainment value is much greater, and you still get the opportunity of opening up what may very well be a card or cards worth a bit of loose change. Plus, if you happen to be a good player, and do well you may very well end up getting your rating upped. Why go to the pre-releases when you could order a box? You do the math.

 

[Lawman]

There's a good and a bad side to the new prerelease prize structure IMHO...
GOOD SIDE--> This way everyone get's something, it's more insentive for the players who know they aren't exactly "the best" to show because they KNOW that they're gonna win something, meet people/friends, ect... you know that positve trail...
BAD SIDE--> The "good/best" players who do really well DON'T have extra insentive for doing well (outside of ratings) since they walk away with the same prizes anyways, certain players will stick around for a few rounds then drop and get their prizes and continue to a new flight/side-tourny, ect... you know that negative trail...

I believe that you must play all the rds to qualify for the add'l 4 packs. (unless you get approval to drop from the PTO ahead of time or an emergency comes up). If I am wrong, I am sure that a PTO will correct me. That will prevent all the drop-outs from getting their 10 packs and running. (In the process, messing up the PR tourney)

Keith

 

[Metal Master]

Venusaur, I'll use your example anyway. 15+20 for gas is 35. How much do you get paid? I hope it's more than $7 per hour. You'll pay that much at least at any concert or entertainment facility, and walk away with nothing to show but being entertained, for however long you were there. For your time- aproximately 5 hours or so, like Benlugia said, you'll walk away with 10 packs of cards, a special promo card, and 2 promo packs guaranteed, AND be entertained. Take your example further: Go to 2 pre-releases aproximately equal distance away from your house, spend $70 dollars, since you have that kind of money, be entertained for 2 days, get 20 packs, meet people you've never played before, get new friends, 20 packs of cards, 2 special promos that may be worth $10, and 8 POP series 1 promos, which could be worth nothing to perhaps $100. Of course this only proves you either have no friends or very cheap friends that go with you to these events without helping out with gas. If they did help out, and you brought 3 friends with you, you really would only be paying $20 each day, and get a much better return on your money. You'd have to go to more than 3 pre-releases that way to equal the same money spent as a box. For my money, I'd rather go to 2 pre-releases with my son and 3 or more of our friends, and be entertained and have a great time for 2 days, than just order a box. Sure you get the same thrill of opening packs, albeit a few less (16), but the entertainment value is much greater, and you still get the opportunity of opening up what may very well be a card or cards worth a bit of loose change. Plus, if you happen to be a good player, and do well you may very well end up getting your rating upped. Why go to the pre-releases when you could order a box? You do the math.

Note: The Majority of 11-14 and 10- don't have jobs. And chore money isn't really $7 an hour. And if your parents aren't into it, you have to earn it. We slave at school and then at home. *If only we were payed to go to school. That would be the day.*

 

[P_A]

If that's your point, then you're trying to tell us that kids pay for their parent's gas to get to the pre-releases? Hmmm, I'm not following this logic either. The majority of 11-14 and 10and under wouldn't have $70 either. On a different note, I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I wouldn't ask my child for money to pay for traveling expenses. But if my son decided he wanted to go to let's say a Duelmasters tournament, and he decided to pay his own entry fee, I would wholeheartedly agree to taking him, but never charge him the gas to get there. Given what I know to be the case, chances are Venusaur wouldn't be charged for gas if he was under 16, so his reason for going would be even greater. He'd have to go to 5 pre-releases @ $15 to equal a box. Chances are that would never happen, because they are usually held in 2 weekends, meaning that chances are he'd only be able to reach 4 out of the 5. In those 4 pre-releases he'd get 40 packs (which if you remember is MORE than a box), 4 pre-release promos, and 16 POP series 1 promos, widening his chances to get something rare. He'd also spend 2 weekends of being entertained, and has the potential of gaining many more new friends or trading buddies, all for less money than he'd pay for a box. Hey, if you ask me, a child having that much money should still consider going to the pre-releases, with or without friends. It's way more bang for your buck, and a lot more entertaining than let's say a movie where you don't exercise your brain, but follow the plot line and eat popcorn for an hour and a half.