What do you do when the trust is broken among League members?

[kskott]

The sincerity of an apology has no correlation with when you're caught. You can assume insincerity as a way for him to get out of the trouble once caught, but the two are not entwined.

If he's apologizing solely to get out of trouble, then his apology is insincere. He was given a way out through the "Deck is missing, has anyone found it?" scenario that occurred, yet he still didn't return it. He was informed through the LL's e-mail of the consequences if he didn't return it, and he still didn't return it. At this point, I wouldn't expect him to apologize at all unless forced to, or unless it gives him a way out.

Once again, in your opinion, the same one that feels every mistake deserves a punishment, so people can learn, it's the wrong signal. But as I said earlier in this post, this person can easily be approached, he doesn't need to be condemned, he's not an evil villain or even what I would consider a criminal.

Theft of any type is a crime. We wouldn't be having this conversation if he had stolen the cards from the store or store's owner. He might not fit what you consider a criminal, but because he committed a crime he is one.


Stealing blatantly goes against the Spirit of the Game. It isn't honest, shows no respect for any of those involved, and is terrible sportsmanship. It would send a bad message to the younger players if the thief isn't given a fair consequence. It isn't fair if the thief (who used the cards after stealing them) to play/win by breaking the law. And it definitely stops being fun if someone steals.

 

[Sabett]

If he's apologizing solely to get out of trouble, then his apology is insincere. He was given a way out through the "Deck is missing, has anyone found it?" scenario that occurred, yet he still didn't return it. He was informed through the LL's e-mail of the consequences if he didn't return it, and he still didn't return it. At this point, I wouldn't expect him to apologize at all unless forced to, or unless it gives him a way out.

I wasn't saying that if he was apologizing to get out trouble would be sincere, I said that is a possible reason why he would give an insincere apology, but doesn't prove that an apology would be insincere.

We have no idea if he ever got that message about the missing person's items, or that he even committed the first crime. Also, we know absolutely nothing about him returning the deck or not when he was confronted with the consequences, nothing of the sort was ever stated by PokePal0314.

Also, the reasons why you would expect an apology don't affect whether or this persons apology would be sincere. Once again there's no connection. He is the only one that can prove or disprove the sincerity of the apology, then which you would have the option to believe or not.

Theft of any type is a crime. We wouldn't be having this conversation if he had stolen the cards from the store or store's owner. He might not fit what you consider a criminal, but because he committed a crime he is one.

I understand he is technically a criminal, so is every jaywalker, but that's besides the point. I was just saying, I really don't see this guy rubbing shoulders with bank robbers.

Stealing blatantly goes against the Spirit of the Game. It isn't honest, shows no respect for any of those involved, and is terrible sportsmanship. It would send a bad message to the younger players if the thief isn't given a fair consequence. It isn't fair if the thief (who used the cards after stealing them) to play/win by breaking the law. And it definitely stops being fun if someone steals.

Once again, a part of my post you chose not to respond to. We have no idea what's going on with this situation. Why he did it. Did someone make him do it? Does he have a problem he can't help? Or was is it as many have said on here, for ill intentions only? We don't know, we all have no idea here. We have just as much proof to call him a victim here as we do a villian.

Also, you assume information that isn't there once again. There is no connection between the person PokePal0314 saw with cards he suspected were his, and this person found on the video tape stealing the cards. So we have no idea if he used the cards at all after stealing them.

 

[Fatherfrog]

The league I play at I've known everyone for years because we had been playing pokemon together since like 2002 and we know where everyone lives so if something like that did happen we'd prolly mount a full frontal assault on whomever's house it was and take back our stuff. Just needless to say its nice having a very well connected league.

 

[chimecho22]

Don't know about your country there, but here when you steal in a store (even if its not the stock) so say someones deck or wallet or cards its still counted as shoplifting (a crime). The person should be held accountable for their actions. they should be forced to give the stuff back, publicy apologise, forgiven and then be banned from there as per spirit of game (whether or not you want to involve authourities is up to you). Not only will it send a msg to everyone there (other card games included) that theft is wrong, but when caught there will be consquences. Why should anyone not feel secure at league, or basically just expect their stuff to be stolen at some time or another. Don't know about you guys but i work freakin hard to be able to afford my cards and have fun at this game. The thought of a thief coming to league would be just about enough to put me off going. look after your honest people and you will grow a great community. Allowing theives in and not protecting the people who do the right thing creates negative mess. You decide which 1 you want

 

[Squidwina]

But as I said earlier in this post, this person can easily be approached, he doesn't need to be condemned, he's not an evil villain or even what I would consider a criminal.

He's not an evil villain. He's someone who has proved that he can't be trusted not to take other people's things.

Well other than the fact that you can't say they re-offend every time, and thus still can't say that he will for certain re-offend...

We may not know for certain that he will not reoffend, but we do know that there is a high probability that he will.

In this case, the pros of banning him outweigh the cons. What ARE the cons, anyway? That a thief will feel bad that his actions led to a forseeable outcome? Boo hoo.

There are a multitude of reasons that could possibly explain why this person did this that would make this decision to steal said cards. Peer pressure, black mail from another kid, perhaps this kid is a klepto. We ALL have absolutely NO idea what is going on here.

You have GOT to be kidding me. We know what went on. The kid stole someone's cards.

Besides, in the infintesimally tiny chance that there were mitigating circumstances, then it is up to the kid and his parent to bring that information to the league leader and the store owner.


The punishment is more than fair. If the kid wants to come crawling back and beg for another chance after a year or so, maybe his plea should be considered. Maybe.

 

[SD PokeMom]

the kid, by their own actions earned the ban from league. as someone stated upthread: do we as LL protect the majority of league members from a thief, or do we 'protect' a single individual from the consequences of their own chosen behavior?

let's not muddy the waters with bogus issues like kleptomania. if the kid actually HAS some kind of mental/behavioral issue then 1)why wasn't the LL informed of it
previously and 2) why wasn't the kid's parent there supervising their child in order to prevent such behavior? parental responsibility, anyone?

jmho
'mom

 

[PokePal0314]

Sabett, while you do bring up valid points, and I agree, I think it is short of a harsh punishment, there was something in one of my posts you must have disregarded. I stated that there was an email sent out to each League member who's email was on file. Then I also stated that each League member had a personal telephone call. The person who had taken my cards had that personal telephone call. They had the option to say what had happened They had not.

Afterwards, since.
Well, here, let me play out the events for you a bit, so it makes more sense:

Saturday, July 3rd:
Went to League, played one game with the deck that was stolen, after playing, I proceeded to make a new deck with my LL and converse with him.

Sunday, July 4th:
Noticed that my deck was missing, while I was sorting through my cards to find for a friend who asked to borrow some. My deck was nowhere to be found, as to not want to go and bother my LL on a holiday, I sent him an email that night.

Monday, July 5th:
Got a call from my LL, he explained the course of action he would take, sending an email, making personal telephone calls, and making a reminder at our Friday night League.

Friday, July 9th:
Still no sign of my deck, a few people from League sympathize, and offer to help rebuild a new deck for me. I decline, hoping it would show up, but thanking them.

And then -

Saturday, July 10th:
A rather large tournament that we have been planning for quite a while was today. Me, without the deck I was going to use, had to piece something together from the extra cards I had. It was a Team Tournament, so, I couldn't let my team mate down. I ended up playing Jumpluff/Bronzong from MD with De-evoluter. After a few rounds, we had to battle this other team. We finished fairly early, before time was called, and I decided to have a normal, 1-person battle with each of the team mates. When I battle the second one, the first one suggests that they use the deck that they've been working on. At first they're iffy about it, but eventually they do it. And what do you know, they were the exact same cards in my cases, with the same markings on a few that mine had. (Various little scratches on the front from cases, a little black marker mark on one from a younger family member, etc.)
So, they had taken my cards, denied their taking or knowing anything about the situation at hand, played with them, against myself, and had a smile plastered on their face while doing so.

The person obviously had ample time to gather themselves and approach either myself, or our LL.

They had known pretty well, the penalties and repercussions of their actions, yet they still chose to wait until they had gotten caught, rather than approaching either one of us.

They broke the Spirit of the Game, which is a huge offense to those who play down here in South Florida. The LL's and TO's are extremely strict about things like that.

His/her parents were made fully aware of the actions and punishments. They had never told our LL about anything that may have provoked the action. There was no underlying condition involving the theft.

I still haven't even received a sincere apology. All I got was:
"Say your sorry, it was a horrible thing to do" (Being said from the child's parent.)
"Sorry" (While shuffling, clearly only saying it because a parent had made them.)

Is this honestly fair for me?

I had a break down of all that was in my deck, as I had prepared a deck sheet a week before for our tournament. I hate doing those. So, I was able to go through and see if cards were missing or not. And of course, some were.

Now I'm out 3 Poke Turn's. 3 Cyrus's Conspiracy, and a Lv. X.

Yet the child claims to them never being in the deck.

Where do we go from here? Surely we cannot take his/her word for it, and end up being out almost $75 on my end. It isn't fair.

How would you guys handle it?

To answer the above questions, I'm really looking for some insight from some Professors, but I'd also like to know what everyone else would do in this situation.
Clearly we all have our opinions on this matter, and I'd like to hear more.

Thanks,
PokePal.

 

[SD PokeMom]

you show the decklist to the LL and the kid's parent. show them the value of said cards from retail websites/ebay etc. and demand either the cards back or their replacement value. the kid has already been proven guilty of the theft, but is going to be believed when they state that the most valuable cards in the deck were never there? o, rly?

what has the reaction of the parent been after seeing video proof of their child stealing the deck?

'mom

 

[ShadowCard]

To answer the above questions, I'm really looking for some insight from some Professors, but I'd also like to know what everyone else would do in this situation.

Keep in mind that not all LLs are Professors and all Professors are definitely not LLs :wink: . I don't know what experience SD PokeMom has with theft, but she has been an LL for a long time. Hers will definitely be one of the opinions you want to get.

Considering the time line you described, I don't think it is a harsh punishment (banning from the store, banning from all leagues under that LL), especially when you throw in that some of the more valuable cards were not recovered. Based on your description, the 15-year-old player showed no sign of regret, ignored various opportunities to correct the situation and instead did things to test if other people would notice he was in possession of the cards.

 

[SD PokeMom]

also: be sure the LL reports the incident(s) to POP. players have lost their ability to play in premier events for this type of behavior. no large event needs known thieves in attendance =/

'mom

 

[waynegg]

you show the decklist to the LL and the kid's parent. show them the value of said cards from retail websites/ebay etc. and demand either the cards back or their replacement value. the kid has already been proven guilty of the theft, but is going to be believed when they state that the most valuable cards in the deck were never there? o, rly?

what has the reaction of the parent been after seeing video proof of their child stealing the deck?

'mom

And if you still get no satisfaction, press charges on him for misdemeanor theft. You have all the evidence you need and the police will, generally, follow through on this kind of thing. You deserve your pound of flesh.

 

[MattPL]

And if you still get no satisfaction, press charges on him for misdemeanor theft. You have all the evidence you need and the police will, generally, follow through on this kind of thing. You deserve your pound of flesh.

I wouldn't say it like that as it sounds slightly harsh, but other than that, I agree. If you really have to, then go ahead and press charges.

Also, I just wanted to say this. This is just a family friendly, kid oriented, card game. People stealing cards from other players? It's a little sad in my opinion. :frown:

 

[meganium45]

Otherwise, they may get taken away in handcuffs (Chicago Regionals 2007 anyone?)

I have a 0 tolerance policy on theft.

It undermines everything that a store/league stands for, to have people out there who make you fear losing your possessions.

Sorry, let POP know of the information, POP ID, name, birthdate and they will be given a nice vacation from Organized Play, and never be allowed in another official pokemon event again. They will be (with a decent store owner) banned from the store. It will be addition by subtraction.

Keep the pressure on to get the "good stuff" back. Now that there is an admission, leverage is on your side, and any parent with a scrap on honor would want their kid's victim made whole.

Vince

 

[Happiny13]

The problem is that the parents don't seem to have any honor, Vince. The parents acted like he was a first grader who called someone a mean name. Stealing is a crime that people get sent to jail for. If the parents don't seem to care about what he did then you need to get bigger forces involved if you want your cards back.

 

[charcharchar]

I believe that since you have the decklist, and if your LL will testify on your behalf, you should be able to get the police involved. If you're being honest and you have proof, you have every right to recover your losses.

 

[Kabigon_Jr]

I work at a card store, where i serve is professor and LL. To help you prove that he did take all the good cards out, ask the store owner to allow you to look at the tapes. Find a time frame where you can see that you are shuffling your deck. I know it might not be possible but if you did, by chance, capture a time frame where you are table shuffling. table shuffling will show that there were 60 cards, and that will prove the kid did take the cards out.

This has happened in ygo at the store i worked at, and all thefts that were caught, the person has never come back. I would definitely advise your store owner to consider banning the kid, and warn any other card shops.

Sorry that this happened, but you should definitely pursue this with the fullest intent to get back what lost. Does the LL have the info on the kid, just in case the parents try to avoid a confrontation again?

 

[waynegg]

I wouldn't say it like that as it sounds slightly harsh, but other than that, I agree. If you really have to, then go ahead and press charges.

Also, I just wanted to say this. This is just a family friendly, kid oriented, card game. People stealing cards from other players? It's a little sad in my opinion. :frown:

Sorry you find it harsh, but it's real- life is harsh. Getting your pound of flesh is just an Old World saying that means to get retribution. You can pretty it up however you want, it's all the same. We spend so much time phrasing the things that we say, to protect someone's feelings, that they often come out meaning something completely different than what we mean. Blunt and direct is better because then there can be only one interpretation.

 

[vegitalian]

If anyone steals (regardless of age), they need to be punished in some way. The punishment should become more severe the older they are, but no one should get off with that. It's not someone's right to attend league, it's a privelege, and if they steal, that privelege should be removed (++, depending on the situation).

 

[SD PokeMom]

first and last warning: let's not go any further down the 'taxes' off-topic path please.

further posts on that topic will be deleted in order to keep this thread going.

'mom

 

[evil psyduck]

And not only will posts be deleted but further action will also be taken.