'what to do' re: shuffling

Discussion in 'Archive' started by SD PokeMom, Mar 25, 2004.

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  1. SD PokeMom

    SD PokeMom Mod Supervisor Staff Member

    I was forwarded this email by farbsman, who was the TO/judge in the tournament discussed in the "what to do?" thread below. Since that thread had to be locked, farbsman wanted me to post this ruling as concerns shuffling, which comes directly from Steve McLaughlin at POP:
  2. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Guess we should get that into the Compendium, with proper attribution
  3. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    Shuffling FUN FUN FUN..

    If You look at your cards while shuffling then you aren't shuffling. Shuffling is done with neither player able to see the card faces. Many players get this wrong. I even get it wrong occasionally then have to explain what just happened to my opponent.

    If you do a PILE shuffle then the cards aren't randomised just re-ordered.

    [If you are wondering about what I have to explain to my opponent it is that I inadventantly saw the order of some of my cards in the deck usually the bottom
  4. dld4a

    dld4a Feature Writer

    Thank you for the effort in getting this ruling to the boards. IMO though this is an unnessary change from the way things were done under DCI.
    "Then you should know the rule Wizards has on this, which states:

    21. Shuffling
    Shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen. Regardless of the method used to shuffle, players’ decks must be sufficiently randomized. Each time players shuffle their decks, they must present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling and/or cutting. At a judge’s discretion, players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than pass that duty to their opponents. By presenting their decks to their opponents, players state that their decks are sufficiently randomized.

    After decks are presented and accepted, any player who does not feel his or her opponent has made a reasonable effort to sufficiently randomize his or her deck must notify a judge. The head judge has final authority to determine whether a deck has been sufficiently randomized. The head judge also has the authority to determine if a player has used reasonable effort to randomize the deck. If the head judge feels that either the deck has not been sufficiently randomized or that a player has not made a reasonable effort to randomize the deck, the player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

    To aid in randomization, at REL 3 and higher events, players must always shuffle their opponents’ decks at the beginning of games. If a deck-manipulation effect takes place, players may shuffle and must cut their opponents’ decks after the effect has resolved and any shuffling is completed. Once players have had the opportunity to shuffle and/or cut their opponents’ decks, the cards are returned to their original owners. If the opponent has shuffled the player’s deck, that player may make one final cut."

    The final line is the point that my son and I were trying to make. I don't however want to start that whole conversation again and I am fine with accepting this new ruling. Thank you again
    Dave II
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2004
  5. davechri

    davechri New Member

    My daughter and I always shuffle our oppoents' decks, even when we are playing against each other.

    And when I see my opponent look at the bottom of my cards when he's cutting my deck, I take the deck, reshuffle, and make him cut it again. This time, without looking at my cards. (I want to say "without CHEATING and looking at my cards" but I won't.)
  6. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    So i shuffle my deck, and my opponent, who can "discreetly learn about deck contents and the order of those cards during the shuffling process, or even to force a particular order" shuffles it. I'm not allowed to cut my deck again? I have to get a judge over to shuffle for me (or a TO????? OK if TO = judge but if just a TO.......).
  7. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    If your opponent shuffles your deck instead of just cutting it, which I recommend everyone do, then you should be allowed to cut the deck yourself. But not reshuffle the deck.

    If the judge finds that the deck is not randomized then I would hope that they would do a lot more than just shuffle the deck.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2004
  8. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    Advisor the Judge had better be very very good at statistics before deciding that a deck isn't randomised. It is my experience that most have a very poor understanding of what a randomised deck looks like. Clumps and multiples should be expected. An evenly distributed deck is a warning sign that all may not be well with the randomisation.

    I did try a STATS 101 on the old gym anyone for any more?

    Under wotc players could continue to shuffle the deck until the first cut. so it was concievable that two players who didn't trust each other could spend the whole game shuffling and never get started.

    If they did then expect a double loss from yours truely. Still that was DCI and this is PUI. Please someone tell me there is a double loss option! I can't find it anywhere :(
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2004
  9. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    NoPoke statistics shouldn't come into it.

    If the judge is to make a ruling that someone has stacked his or her deck, or just his or her opening hand, then the evidence should be overwhelming.

    For example, the opponent refuses to allow his or her deck to be cut/shuffled, the judge is called, and the first seven cards are Aron, Lairon, Aggron ex, and four metal energy. Or a 20 energy deck where exactly every third card is an energy.

    While both of these examples are statistically possible, when combined with a player's refusal to allow his or her deck to be cut, it is, for me, enough evidence to suggest cheating.
  10. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Your opponent ALWAYS has the option to shuffle your deck, but you can certainly call over a judge if you have a valid reason you don't want your opponent to shuffle (i.e., sticky hands).

    I use the DCI guilelines posted here by dld4a.

    - you shuffle your deck
    - your opponent cuts/shuffles your deck
    - if your opponent shuffles, you can make a "final" cut, not a "final" shuffle

    Deck Stacking is pretty easy to recognize, like advisor pointed out (i.e., fails to let opponent cut, draws "god" hand regularly, randomizes deck in secret). I ALWAYS have to watch for stacking and other kinds of cheating at tournaments.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2004
  11. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    Why would you run a tournament with rules that are not approved by PUI. I am sure they will love that. Hope none of your players complain.

    So a PTO not going by the rules set by Pokemon USA. I am sure this won't last long. I know the PTO can loose there ability to run a tournament if they are not going by the rules set by Pokemon USA.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2004
  12. Professor Dav

    Professor Dav Master Trainer

    To be clear, what he's said isn't much different than what we've said. I doubt we'd have any issues with the steps outlined by Steve P. As long as both players have the OPPORTUNITY to assure deck randomness, there should never be an issue.

    What you must avoid is the constant reshuffling back and forth between players. This is a stalling tactic, and is unacceptable.

    Offer shuffled deck to opponent.
    Opponent may cut or reshuffle, or neither.
    If they shuffle, you may cut one last time.

    Do not lather, rinse or repeat.

    Prof. Dav
  13. GOROY

    GOROY New Member

    I have a question, if your opponent has been shuffling their deck and the way they are doing looks suspicious, you can shuffle it- or what i mean is I see my opponent taking some cards from the bottom of his/her deck and putting those cards on the top, then again and again, in a shuffling way, would that be stacking the deck or something, I should most likely ask to shuffle or get a judge, right?
  14. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    This is starting to be a common thing. So I get one answer from one person at POP, I get another from someone else. WHICH WAY IS IT?


  15. AXE

    AXE New Member

    From what im hearing and what i beleave it should be is if my opponent shuffles then i may choose to CUT my deck. but if they cut it i can't touch it.
  16. Professor Dav

    Professor Dav Master Trainer

    If you feel that your opponent has not sufficiently randomized thier deck unintentionally, you should ask to shuffle it yourself, and offer it back to them for a final cut.

    If you feel that they have not sufficiently randomized thier deck intentionally, you should call a judge.

    Much of this is 'spirit of the game' territory, and while we do provide guidelines, a judges ruling on any shuffling issues should be considered final. If you have issues with the way a Judge handles a ruling, you can contact us at [email protected], and we'll do our best to rectify the situation.

    Does that help?

    Prof. Dav
  17. Professor Dav

    Professor Dav Master Trainer

    It is not necessary to get so worked up over this.

    What I said was, that both what Steve McLaughlin told you, and what Steve P. was saying are 'essentially' the same thing, and would both be reasonable ways to handle a shuffling situation at a tournament and would be more than fair.

    From the TO Handbook:

    "Players will shuffle their decks and give their opponents the option to shuffle and/or cut
    their deck. If a judge decides a player (or players) is taking excessive amounts of time for
    shuffling before the game begins or during the game, the judge may assign penalties
    based on as if the player was late for the match."

    If I have to edit this section of the handbook to the nth degree for something like this, I will. However, this is NOT about being a rules lawyer, it is about being fair and maintaining a fun environment for everyone with the minimum of minutia possible. I realize you had an issue with this recently, and if you'd like to discuss it with me, you can contact me directly and I'll explain further.

    Prof. Dav
  18. OHB

    OHB Member

    when i shuffle i will look away from the deck i ususaly look at the clock for like 20 so sec of shuffling i offer my opponet to cut unless that person don't want to cut for like 2 time then i don't offer
  19. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    I'd also like to bring up a point that's important especially with younger players.
    If you have done a deck check and "unrandomized" a players deck, make sure that they are capable of randomizing it sufficiently or offer to do so yourself.
    Many younger players can't riffle shuffle and the general tossing of sections of decks around that passes for shuffling with many people, while sufficient for "randomizing" a deck that is already random, is not enough to truely randomize a deck that has been sorted.
    A "Stacked" deck like this will most likely doom a player to lose because they are going to get clumps of cards due to the deck check and it's not fair to do that to them if they can't shuffle well enough.
  20. Professor Dav

    Professor Dav Master Trainer

    Excellent point Pokepop, tournament officials should always be looking to assist the younger group as much as possible with stuff like this.

    Prof. Dav

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