Worlds invites : How many who etc.

[Flaming_Spinach]

Everything ryanvergel has said is true. I would reiterate it if I had anything new to say.



Here's a thought... Shouldn't we work on getting overseas players (or LDs) to use their Worlds invites before we give them even more? Why should we give (for example) 12 MORE invites to Italy next year when they only used ONE this year?

 

[Rainbowgym]

Why not let the USA players keep their 60 invites per agegroup I don't have a problem with that.
BUT

only 8 of them come with a trip, that's more equal.
That way the USA has 8 times more than any outside USA country.

I will even agree with total 16 trips + invites for USA and the remaining invites WITHOUT trips.

Let's see how Worlds would look in 2007.
Or even better Worlds 2008 0r 2009 somewere in Europe, 8 invites + trip for USA, and 42 invites without trip.
And if this happens and only a few of the USA invite only players shows up in Europe we are going to scream "you deserve less, you didn't use your invites.

Fair enough????

Tell me how many USA players did payed for their OWN trip this year? NONE if I am right.
Each invite winner got a trip and still you dare to complain you get less.

Now compare the amount of International players who played at worlds paying their own trip.

Never take my pokemon accounts as base for your calculations, you are so wrong to use those.
Many, many players don't even have a my pokemon account, due to several reasons.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Its easier to get all Norways player base to nationals there.
Nobody there needs to travel 3000km to play there.
Its Very Hard for the US Players to get to Nationals.

But it was not that hard to go to the Gym Challenges which you better compare with our Nationals.
1 trip for each agegroup, that's what most of us have.
Due to Distances and population of your states, these a better to compare with foreign countries.
And even than there was the advantage the USA players could travel to more GC's to earn a trip + invite, while we had only ONE change.

 

[MonsterOfTheLake]

Why not let the USA players keep their 60 invites per agegroup I don't have a problem with that.

Noone should.

BUT

Ooh, caps!

only 8 of them come with a trip, that's more equal.

Why?

If our organizers can afford to give us trips, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't get them.

That way the USA has 8 times more than any outside USA country.

We HAVE 8x more than any other country.

I will even agree with total 16 trips + invites for USA and the remaining invites WITHOUT trips.

Again, if our organizers can afford them, there's no reason why they shouldn't be given out.

Let's see how Worlds would look in 2007.

Probably a lot different, as they're aiming for very few players apparentyl.

Or even better Worlds 2008 0r 2009 somewere in Europe, 8 invites + trip for USA, and 42 invites without trip.

Why would Worlds be held at Europe? The US and Japanese playerbases are a lot more higher than the entire continent. Let's pretend that it was. Then if our organizers can't afford to give us trips, that's probably what will happen. There's nothing wrong with that.

And if this happens and only a few of the USA invite only players shows up in Europe we are going to scream "you deserve less, you didn't use your invites.

Go for it, it'd be true.

Fair enough????

Yeah.

Tell me how many USA players did payed for their OWN trip this year? NONE if I am right.

None, because our organizers can afford to give us trips.

See how that works out?

Each invite winner got a trip and still you dare to complain you get less.

We get LESS invites. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether we get trips or not. I'm sure many US players would appreciate an invite alone, and we don't even get those invites. 56% playerbase, 44% invites.

Now compare the amount of International players who played at worlds paying their own trip.

Why? What does that have to do with anything?

Never take my pokemon accounts as base for your calculations, you are so wrong to use those.

Uh, if you don't have a MyPokemon account, you can't play in a sanctioned event. You obviously have to take that into account.

Many, many players don't even have a my pokemon account, due to several reasons.

Which are?

You're not supposed to play in a sanctioned event without a MyPokemon account.

 

[annisarich]

Uh, if you don't have a MyPokemon account, you can't play in a sanctioned event. You obviously have to take that into account.



Which are?

You're not supposed to play in a sanctioned event without a MyPokemon account.

You have to have a POP Id to play in sanctioned play.
You do not need to participate in My Pokemon account.
But I think you must register with my Pokemeon account to receive major prizes etc at championship events.
(your valuable data and info exchanged for sales and marketing in exchange for fabulous prizes and fame)

 

[Charizard1987]

I think POP should include travel fees for the invitation. In Malaysia for example, I got 3rd. My friends who also got the invitation and I would want to go to the Worlds together. Yet, we couldn't effort to pay the travel fees due to huge currency different. No money and couldn't find a sponser, we just could sit in front of the pc during the worlds. :frown:

 

[Rainbowgym]

Why?

If our organizers can afford to give us trips, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't get them.

YOUR organizers?????
As far I understood ALL players do play under the same program, with the same people in charge the POP team.
POP is in charge Worldwide and therefor all players should be equal and get the same changes.

The fact that promotion of the program is placed with Distributors should not make a difference.


POP gives their players trips for worlds, and I would not be suprised if in the future those trips would be spreaded Worldwide.

 

[Michel]

According to some people here, USA rules the Pokemon World.

Best player base, best players, best everything, deserve to have Worlds in their country, deserve to have more invites, deserve to have more trips, deserve everything.

I'm one of these bad and stupid European players (and poor too, I had an invite but no money to go to Worlds), and I really wonder why we need Worlds.
Let's give us European championship for noobs, bad players, and other crap, and let the great US players play their own events. :biggrin:

Old discussion, always the same people who think US is better than the rest of the World, always the same people who believe Pokemon is a US game made by and for US people only.

When I look at the results in Anaheim, I don't understand why all the top 32 seats, or at least all the top 8, or even all the winners are not from the USA.
According to you, my dear friends, you're the best of the World and Europe (Finland, Holland, France, UK, ... are in Europe, do you know that ?) has only bad players.

Great results made by so bad players :lol:

Guys, let me tell you something : you maybe think you have the best in Pokemon, you maybe think you're the best in the USA, but your posts also prove there are also very stupid in your country :tongue:

 

[Thomas33]

We have 54% of the player base and only 44% of the invites, HOW IS THAT FAIR!?

A country like Czech or France can have <1% of the player base and get 2+% of the invites? How do they deserve that many?

That's SO unfair, it's not even funny.

Take a look at 15+ guys. How many americans in t8? 6. How many Japanese? 2. How many else? 0. The rest of the world not only has fewer players, but they have lesser skilled players. Americans get the short end of the stick. We have MUCH better players, MANY more players, and the LEAST invites.

USA took 56% of the top32 in 15+ at worlds. We only had 44% of the invite base though, showing that proportionally our players are more skilled than other players. Our players only proportionally placed better as the tournament progressed, with the 75% t8 and t4 representation, and 100% of the finalists being from the USA.

no, not skill, better op support in your country

all of you who get invites get trips from POP - Pokemon Organised Play (no ''United States'' in that label), why does POP give not trips to other countries that get invites...and our local organizers have to pay.
POP gives US players an unfair disadvantage

 

[Fireborn]

You US people keep saying it's unfair for us Europeans to get so many invites. What you conveniently forget to mention is

1) 75% of our invites come WITHOUT a trip and more than likely cannot be used cos of the major costs of flying to California!

2) Our Nationals are CLOSED events! Which means we get 1 shot at a trip/invite! Tough luck if it's not your day, you picked the wrong deck, that was your 1 shot. US people can travel and still win invites + trips! We can't travel cos we have closed events.

What would happen if everyone in the USA could only play in one Gym Challenge to get their invite? If you don't win it, tough luck, better next year? Major outcry, I'd think...

YES, USA has the most players by far, I agree! But you have the best and the most opportunities as well, which is what makes it unfair to us.

 

[ShawofMordor]

I think this would be better if we looked at things a little differently.

Don't look at the USA as a whole.

Look at America as another continent, with 50 countries.

That would make things a lot more like Europe, correct?

Each "country" gets a Gym Challenge, which is like a Nationals for Europe.

And these Gyms are more competitive than the European nationals, not because the US players are better, but because they are open to everyone.

Many European Nats are closed. Gyms are open. The same 5 great players can go to 5 Gyms in their area, traveling about the same distance you would need to go in Europe to go to five surrounding countries. But in Europe, those 5 players cannot play in all the Nationals, they can only play in theirs.

This is what makes the USA tournaments a lot harder. There are more players. So making them harder means only the best players can get invites.

People may argue that since ours are open we have more chances, thus making it easier, but think again! Imagine you are from France and you are at your Nationals and all the best players from Germany come over. That doesn't happen because your Nationals are closed. I played in a Gym Challenge in Pennsylvania, and I had to play against players from seven different states. Imagine going to your Nats and facing ALL THAT.

We have more people, of course we have more skilled players than Europe. We also have more bad players, but no one really sees those.

Now, look again at the invite "problem." You say the European Nationals gets 4 invites and only 1 trip, well the American Gyms only get 1 invite, 1 trip. 2nd-4th gets nothing.

It seems to me the problem is that people are viewing America = France = Switzerland = Croatia. All those countries are different. They have different numbers of people. It doesn't mean anyone in any of those countries is better or worse, just that the players in the countries with larger amounts of players are exposed to more competition. Again, this refines the players in the larger countries, making sure that only the best best are allowed in. Because of this they SHOULD do better at Worlds, they have had to go through testing that the people in smaller countries did not. I am not saying this is about the USA, or England or Germany or anything, I am saying that if COUNTRY X has more players than COUNTRY Y, the players it sends to Worlds SHOULD be better, logically.

 

[Thomas33]

worlds would be alot more competitive if the trips were equally distributed as in the US...paid trips for all invitees, more players to worlds, more competition, worlds IS set to fit all the players that got invites + grinders...so many empty spaces are left in worlds...so if POP would finance the rest of the world like they do in the US it would be more fair....again...this isnt about who get more, who less, who is better and who is not, but about getting the same privileges about trips as the US

 

[Sizor_Lugia]

I am also from Europe, and I would like to tell this to you:
I agree that USA should have the majority of players in worlds, because it has lot's of people and competition is hard, but I think as Thomas33 that it should be given more chances to outside America players, but not to much...
I went to Portuguese Nationals, a small event with two age groups 11-14 and 15+ and with 60 players.
I became 2nd in 15+ groups, but I didn't receive the travel payed (naturally).
That isn't the most relevant. The strangest part was that there was only given one trip payed to worlds. That means that both 11-14 and 15+ winners had to flip a coin, to see who winned the travel........... That is a little to bad...

To become 2nd I needed to fight Zre, dragtrode, SMP, LBS, mew-tric, Rock-lock amongst others... It isn't so "uncompetitive", that doesn't even deserve at least four travels payed.

That's what I think...

 

[ShawofMordor]

I don't know about Worlds being more competitive if you had more equally distributed trips. I mean, the players from the USA are not bad, so they do count as competition.

I think it is really bad that there is one trip per Nats, I thought there was one trip per AGE GROUP per Nats.

I also would like to point out I never said that the European tournaments are not competitive, but they should be LESS competitive because there are less people. It just seems like logic to me, nothing relfecting play quality on either side at all.

 

[Sizor_Lugia]

Yes you are right. I totally agree with you when you say that European Nationals are less competitive than USA Nationals.
And I also agree that USA players are very good. Most archetype's creations belong to them, that shows everything...
I just think that it would be nicer to give us a little more chances, I am not saying a lot of invites. For example just two per age group, and so participants could travel together and consequently have a "close" National friend with them.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I think this would be better if we looked at things a little differently.

Don't look at the USA as a whole.

Look at America as another continent, with 50 countries.

That would make things a lot more like Europe, correct?

Each "country" gets a Gym Challenge, which is like a Nationals for Europe.

And these Gyms are more competitive than the European nationals, not because the US players are better, but because they are open to everyone.

Many European Nats are closed. Gyms are open. The same 5 great players can go to 5 Gyms in their area, traveling about the same distance you would need to go in Europe to go to five surrounding countries. But in Europe, those 5 players cannot play in all the Nationals, they can only play in theirs.

This is what makes the USA tournaments a lot harder. There are more players. So making them harder means only the best players can get invites.

People may argue that since ours are open we have more chances, thus making it easier, but think again! Imagine you are from France and you are at your Nationals and all the best players from Germany come over. That doesn't happen because your Nationals are closed. I played in a Gym Challenge in Pennsylvania, and I had to play against players from seven different states. Imagine going to your Nats and facing ALL THAT.

We have more people, of course we have more skilled players than Europe. We also have more bad players, but no one really sees those.

Now, look again at the invite "problem." You say the European Nationals gets 4 invites and only 1 trip, well the American Gyms only get 1 invite, 1 trip. 2nd-4th gets nothing.

It seems to me the problem is that people are viewing America = France = Switzerland = Croatia. All those countries are different. They have different numbers of people. It doesn't mean anyone in any of those countries is better or worse, just that the players in the countries with larger amounts of players are exposed to more competition. Again, this refines the players in the larger countries, making sure that only the best best are allowed in. Because of this they SHOULD do better at Worlds, they have had to go through testing that the people in smaller countries did not. I am not saying this is about the USA, or England or Germany or anything, I am saying that if COUNTRY X has more players than COUNTRY Y, the players it sends to Worlds SHOULD be better, logically.

Shaw I disagree,

USA tournaments HARDER? I doubt it after being present at 3 GC's.
I will totally agree on each state having 1 GC and 1 trip in relation to each EU country 1 trip at this point.
Now imagine USA players would not be allowed to play in any other GC than the ONE in their state.
So no 2or 3 in each state only 1.
I can assure you the trip given that way for Worlds (and thus Playersfield) would look very different.

Not fair?
Why?
in Europe there are countries with many good players and there are with almost no good players.
What does that differ from a state with many or no good players?
If we want only good players at Worlds, than ALL tripgiving events should be open for everybody worldwide.
While the USA structure allowed that, the International structure did NOT.
If you ended 2nd at Nationals you were done.

I can assure you the mix of players at Worlds would have been very different if all EU players could have played each others countries Nationals and winning the trip there.

Just an example, Anna who ended 2nd at our Nationals, was able to play Worlds because of the 2-4place invite structure.
She ended 38th place, which means she was better then the majority of USA players present.
Also most other Dutch players who came with only an invite ended relative high.

But it's all old cows now, new season and new changes. Nobody knows what will happen.
All I want to say, even with the terrible OP management we had for over 3 years, we performed very very well at Worlds.

On top of that you also got in 15+ a total of 8 trips, Why not a EU challenge with 8 trips?

 

[Fireborn]

That means that both 11-14 and 15+ winners had to flip a coin, to see who winned the travel........... That is a little to bad...

Seriously?? You guys flipped A COIN to see who'd get the travel award? Is that even legal or something? The least the could do is either have everyone play in the same age group (as Belgium used to do) or have the 11-14 and 15+ winners play it out or something. Flipping a coin is more than ridiculous...

 

[Thomas33]

more travels.....

 

[d0ge]

sorry for bumping an old topic but I just wanted to express my opinion on the matter. I don't exactly agree with cutting US invites but some things US players might wanna take into account before mindlessly bashing overseas players.

1) Overseas players only have one chance every year to qualify for Worlds whereas US players have multiple chances. You might argue that this is offset by the extreme competition at US GCs and such which might be true, however to simply assume foreign Nationals are all willy nilly is stepping over the line. Even if overseas players are a notch below the top US players, there are still enough decent players in most countries to make Nationals a relatively competitive event.

For arguments sake lets compare a foreign Nationals to a States tournament since so many US players think a US Regionals would be more competitive than a foreign Nationals. Even for an elite player there are multiple things that can go wrong to stop them from winning a States even if they made the all right plays, chose the right deck, fine tuned the decklist, etc. Things like pairings, coin flips, bad prizes, bad starting hands are beyond a player's control.

The point I'm trying to make is that although the US metagame is likely much harder, to think that there is no competition overseas is rather ignorant. Overseas players only have one chance to qualify for Worlds and often miss out because of factors beyond their control even if they did everything else perfectly. There is no consolation prize, you either come 1st or nothing whereas US players at least get second (or more) chances. This in my opinion makes qualifying for Worlds overseas more taxing.

2) USA probably do have the best players in the world but remember the OP in many overseas countries are utterly hopeless. In USA you guys have a full year's program of priemer events going up in caliber leading to Worlds. CCs, States, Regionals, GCs, Nationals with PRs every few months ensures there's something going on at every point of the year and this keeps players interested. In New Zealand where I live we get CC then it goes straight to Nationals. We don't get PRs and our lousy LD often forget (intentionally or not) to send prize support and even prizes for premier events. There is no incentive for overseas players to playtest extensively and find out 'SDs' to break the metagame when OP is so slack. I'm sure a lot of you would lose that incentive if you were in our situation.

However look at Magic. Are the US players significantly better than the rest of the World? I wouldn't say so. Why not? Because the same OP is offered internationally and therefore every player has the incentive to playtest. If only Pokemon didn't follow the LD international structure but that's another matter altogether.

I'm not trying to make excuses but just point out that there is a reason why there aren't many impactful international players and it's not because we're stupid.

3) I hate to use luck as a reason however one cannot deny that there are factors beyond a player's control that sway the outcome. Elite players will eliminate the luck factor in determining games to a very small degree however it is and always will be present. I say this in response to the argument that USA is the best because they dominate Worlds. Once again I have to agree that US have some world class talents that are quite possibly the best in the world and this is a major contributing factor to their dominance. However you cannot discount the fact that US players making up the majority of participants is another contributing factor.

Hypothetically speaking if one out of three New Zealand players suffer from bad luck and miss the cut then the overall performance of NZ players have decreased quite a bit. However if one out of eighty US players suffer from bad luck that would hardly effect the overall of US players. Clearly US players have an advantage in proportion. Admittedly often times overseas players miss the cut because they're awful players playing subpar decks but you cannot entirely disregard the proportional advantage the US players have.

Furthermore US players have another advantage in that they're more familiar with the metagame than anyone else and because the majority of players are US they have an automatic advantage. Obviously overseas players should research and playtest against the US metagame but there are certain things overseas players simply can't access.


I see I've made quite a lengthy post but I'm not trying to support the proposition of taking away US invites but just to express some views as an international player that US players might not be aware of. Last season New Zealand didn't even get Nationals because our LD screwed us over. I make the point that it's not so easy winning Nationals overseas, well it's even harder when there isn't even one =/
Maybe this season will prove better