X / Y and EV training

[Prime]

From Pokebeach:

With Super Training, it’s not your Pokemon’s level that goes up but its base stats, the underlying values that define your Pokemon's skills in battle. As these base stats increase, your Pokemon can increase its HP, Attack, or other stats beyond those of another Pokemon of the same species at the same level. These base stats could be increased using items and other methods in previous Pokemon titles, but in Pokemon X and Pokemon Y, you'll be able to raise them far more easily than ever before, thanks to Super Training. This will lay the groundwork for more Pokemon Trainers to aim for the very top!

Super Training can be played on the touch screen whenever you are not in battle or viewing an event. Your Pokemon will face huge Pokemon-shaped balloons, with each side trying to shoot balls into the other's goal.

For a more casual way to help your Pokemon grow, use training bags for an easy boost to your Pokemon’s growth with Core Training! You'll earn training bags when you complete Super-Training Regimens.

EVs (base stats) can now be seen through a meter.

This is pretty cool, and it's cool that the game makes it easier to do, but I wish the game made IV Individual Value breeding easier. Seems like it takes much longer to breed for the right IVs than it does to battle for the right EVs.

What would be awesome, and this is just speculation, would be if X/Y removed IVs and just used Base Stats + EVs. That would be perfect.

 

[ultimatedra]

Why credit Pokebeach instead of the official source?
http://www.pokemonxy.com/en-us/whats_new/super_training/

 

[Prime]

I hadn't seen the official web site, so I just credited where I saw the information.

 

[Raen]

This is interesting to me:

For a more casual way to help your Pokemon grow, use training bags for an easy boost to your Pokemon’s growth with Core Training! You'll earn training bags when you complete Super-Training Regimens.

Could it be that Super Training = EVs and Core Training = IVs?

 

[vaporeon]

I wish Pokemon would stop treating EVs as if they were bases stats because they are completely different things. While this is a great tool for those who are not good at ev training, it does nothing to help pokemon who need a boost to compete. It looks like the system will stay the same.

 

[Regis_Neo]

I'm surprised they've officially recognized base stats...

I dunno, half of me almost thinks this is a way of boosting IVs rather than EVs, the text is a bit vague.

 

[Benzo]

I would rather have a way to boost IV's then EV's- think about it:
I have been EV training forever, breeding for IV's - not as long, but- I can EV train in my sleep, but not for breeding.

I think that since there has been so many things in favor of EV training, it is time for the IV's to get a boost for once as the newest addition to the training aspect of competitive play.

 

[bullados]

I wish Pokemon would stop treating EVs as if they were bases stats because they are completely different things. While this is a great tool for those who are not good at ev training, it does nothing to help pokemon who need a boost to compete. It looks like the system will stay the same.

I'm pretty certain that the terms "Base Stat", "Effort Value", and "Intrinsic Value" are fan-made names that just stuck. I doubt those are the internal names that TPC and GF uses for those values. For all we know, internally, what we call "EV" was always called "Base Stat", and that there was always a different term for what we call "Base Stat".

 

[Benzo]

Well, the word "core" could be what we call "base stats". IV's are flexible with in range of the max/min stat inside the base stats. EV's are additional boost's to increase the base stats.

To what I understand is that "all Pokémon share the common equal value"- meaning that there is a common shared equality for Pokémon that are the same in comparison with base stats. Two Charizards share the same "core" stats if they have the same nature in the case of having all IV's at 31 or all at 0- they will be equal in that "core".

This is what keeps the Pokémon different and unique from each other= unless the "base/core stats" are exactly the same in all manners.

What I would like to see change is that the IV's get dropped from the factor and allow for the nature and characteristics be the deciding factor that makes Pokémon unique from each other. There are a few things that would need to be considered such as if for example you do have two Pokémon that are the same in their Speed stat (over all with IV and EV with Nature) -- what would determine which Pokémon attacks first in battle?

The games already randomly select which Pokémon goes first in the Speed order when there is a "tie" when the stats are totaled exactly, then alternates between the two for each round of battle on which will attack first.

If there is a way to increase (IV training) the IV stats, then a few things will be satisfied in general for the player base in regards to the competitive scene:

Less of a need to RNG and hacking
More of a level battle field for all players to be on the same chances of getting "the best" performance from a Pokémon in battles.
Not so many battles being determined a winner based on "low verse high IV's" when the battles already have factors such as critical hits in the "luck", status inflictions, abilities, hold items, type coverage of the lack there of, and move sets.

In a way, it sort of stinks to lose a battle based on IV's contributing or deterring a Pokémon from being able to serve it's purpose for the strategy. I would rather lose a battle to a critical hit instead of an IV stat being the main matter of giving my opponent the win.

EV's are supposed to give you the advantage in a stat- it is a waste to invest your EV's into a Pokémon that has mediocre IV's- it is counter productive IMO. That advantage pay's off when the same Pokémon you are facing is not EV'd the same as yours is, and does not share the same Nature.

 

[vaporeon]

I'm pretty certain that the terms "Base Stat", "Effort Value", and "Intrinsic Value" are fan-made names that just stuck. I doubt those are the internal names that TPC and GF uses for those values. For all we know, internally, what we call "EV" was always called "Base Stat", and that there was always a different term for what we call "Base Stat".

That what I was thinking but Creatures does recognize Effort Values because they named their in game thing the Effort-o-Metor. Its just super confusing.

 

[Prime]

I think IVs make the game complicated for complicated sake and are not needed at all in the game. Base Stats + how you battle train your Pokemon should be the system. Leave the complicated part to breeding the right moves onto them, getting the right ability, and choosing the right item to equip to it.

 

[vaporeon]

I think IVs make the game complicated for complicated sake and are not needed at all in the game. Base Stats + how you battle train your Pokemon should be the system. Leave the complicated part to breeding the right moves onto them, getting the right ability, and choosing the right item to equip to it.

I agree with this but I would like to see stats work differently. I want a system where any Pokemon can be used competitively where you can train stats past a limit. No matter what system they choose to use, Pokemon will be the same strength always and others will outclass others. If you make a system where you can train a Pokemon stats as much as you like, people will use their favorites, which it what Pokemon should be.

 

[Prime]

In that situation, players would only care about the ability and what moves the pokemon can learn. Shedinja becomes god-like because of his ability and now being able to escape his lower stats.

 

[vaporeon]

It would need balance but Shedinja would still have 1 HP. We just need something to give all Pokemon a competitive chance or edge. It just seems with this gen, nothing would change yet again. We still dont know what else they plan to do though. I wish they would just tell us.

 

[Prime]

I get you that certain Pokemon just don't see the light of day because they just aren't good enough. Maybe The Pokemon Company needs to institute a Modified Format-esque list of certain Pokemon that can be used this season at events, which changes every season. We have over 500 Pokemon now, so I don't think limiting the amount of playable Pokemon would remove too many options.

 

[vaporeon]

I get you that certain Pokemon just don't see the light of day because they just aren't good enough. Maybe The Pokemon Company needs to institute a Modified Format-esque list of certain Pokemon that can be used this season at events, which changes every season. We have over 500 Pokemon now, so I don't think limiting the amount of playable Pokemon would remove too many options.

Or they can just re-balance the base stats on each Pokemon. TPC does not know about any meta or are involved in it to make a list of Pokemon that can be used. This is normally left up to the community. What they can do is make sure that each Pokemon can be used competitively. This can easily be done by either giving a 80 to 120 base stat boost to weaker stage 2 pokemon and and like 60 or so to Pokemon that dont evolve or give them a hold item that boost their stats.

With Mega Pokemon being shown to us, it confirmed what I was thinking and that was they dont plan to change base stats. Un-balance base stats are the problem with the games.

 

[Prime]

I disagree that every Pokemon needs to be competitive. I can't think of a game where every character is competitive. Street Fighter, nor other miniature games, have a system where every piece is competitive. The truth of the matter is that for there to be good characters, there must be bad characters.

Even if they boost weaker Pokemon, players are going to concentrate on the tip top best Pokemon, and there will still be Pokemon that can't be competitive because so many other Pokemon offer the same exact base stats but with a better ability to type or attack skill set.

 

[Benzo]

In the video games for "story mode"- you need to have lower tier Pokemon. That is a given. Ever battle a gym leader who has an uber in his/her party with in the first 5 badges? You get to the E4, and you'll find better tier Pokemon with higher base stats.

Their is some degree of balance in the tiers, as each Pokemon does have some use to it as you progress into the game. Here is (IMO) a better "balance" to the competitive scene with comparison to the story mode/ casual players:

Types, and dual type combo Pokemon: competative has little to offer in higher tier base stats for type. Casual- anything goes for getting through the game.

Competitive vs casual for tiers: casual is easier, just bring in higher leveled Pokemon- earn badge. Competitive- base stats matter more, restricted to a specific tier to remain competitive.

Comp vs casual: Numbers per type for competitive base stats is out classed for abilities, move pool, and requires training, where as casual is just open range as long as you are hgher level.

Boosting the numbers to add in and up-grade base stats among the Types and dual types to give the competitive players a larger tier will bring in better balance and more available stratagies.

Casual play in an over all estimate really only needs 225 total Pokemon to get through the game and provide some variety in the battles you face in story mode. What does this guess say about the remaing 500 Pokemon?

Lower to medium tier Pokemon is all you basically see until you reach the E4- and some small number (7-9 ish) of top tier OU Pokemon (that are 5-7 levels higher then your starting party, ie level 65-70ish)(or pulling a Lance)- and things like the battle Subway restrict what is usable- why not boost the base stats of some of the mid tier NU/RU Pokemon into the OU status instead of adding on another evolution, or a hold item?

Break down what is RU, boost some of those up in the base stats.

 

[Prime]

I always liked the Evolite item in Black/White because it helped non-fully evolved Pokemon be tougher.

Perhaps there could be items that boost a certain stat if other stats are really low.

So an item that boosts Speed if Def/SpDef is really low. Or boost HP if Atk/SpAtk is really low. So, it could be put on older Pokemon and they may just be more competitive then.

 

[NoDice]

Well, the word "core" could be what we call "base stats". IV's are flexible with in range of the max/min stat inside the base stats. EV's are additional boost's to increase the base stats.

To what I understand is that "all Pokémon share the common equal value"- meaning that there is a common shared equality for Pokémon that are the same in comparison with base stats. Two Charizards share the same "core" stats if they have the same nature in the case of having all IV's at 31 or all at 0- they will be equal in that "core".

This is what keeps the Pokémon different and unique from each other= unless the "base/core stats" are exactly the same in all manners.

What I would like to see change is that the IV's get dropped from the factor and allow for the nature and characteristics be the deciding factor that makes Pokémon unique from each other. There are a few things that would need to be considered such as if for example you do have two Pokémon that are the same in their Speed stat (over all with IV and EV with Nature) -- what would determine which Pokémon attacks first in battle?

The games already randomly select which Pokémon goes first in the Speed order when there is a "tie" when the stats are totaled exactly, then alternates between the two for each round of battle on which will attack first.

If there is a way to increase (IV training) the IV stats, then a few things will be satisfied in general for the player base in regards to the competitive scene:

Less of a need to RNG and hacking
More of a level battle field for all players to be on the same chances of getting "the best" performance from a Pokémon in battles.
Not so many battles being determined a winner based on "low verse high IV's" when the battles already have factors such as critical hits in the "luck", status inflictions, abilities, hold items, type coverage of the lack there of, and move sets.

In a way, it sort of stinks to lose a battle based on IV's contributing or deterring a Pokémon from being able to serve it's purpose for the strategy. I would rather lose a battle to a critical hit instead of an IV stat being the main matter of giving my opponent the win.

EV's are supposed to give you the advantage in a stat- it is a waste to invest your EV's into a Pokémon that has mediocre IV's- it is counter productive IMO. That advantage pay's off when the same Pokémon you are facing is not EV'd the same as yours is, and does not share the same Nature.

I seriously wish I could "thank" this post 1000 times. Its exactly what needs to happen to truly open up the games for everyone competitively.