Bluffing and SOTG

[Rocky500]

I used to always put a Crawdaunt ex on top of my deck, face up. When I pulled my deck from the box, I would set it on the table so my opponent could see, as I stashed my bag and such beneath my chair.

I would see the Crawdaunt ex and quickly put it into my pocket.

Of course, the Crawdaunt ex wasn't part of my deck. It was just a "lucky card."

You would not believe how many times my opponent would make sure that they put no more than 3 Pokemon on their bench.

I'm not sure why...

LOL. <33

Hrm, as far as bluffing goes there are some real crazy card sharks over here it's not even funny. I always play this lady whose just some poke-mom that everyone loves. Every round she plays she'll go off about how she sucks and how terrible she'll do against you. When the game actually starts she always purposely gives a few prizes off and moan about the terrible cards in her hand, then BOOM! Outta no where she'll break out Scrambles and evolutions outta nowhere and totally dominate everyone she plays.

 

[lolganium]

rocky: you should TGW those suprises back into her deck.

 

[PokePop]

But when you go to a Poker game you expect people to lie.

About poker.

I'm not so sure that players would make the same distinct division between in-game and out-of game in Pokemon.

You have to remember, Pokemon is a more social game than poker (particularly when the latter is at the highest levels).

I wasn't making a statement.
I was actually asking.

 

[ninetales1234]

So, what are your thoughts? Is bluffing, in any way, shape, or form, legal?

How would anyone be able to identify it? How would anyone be able to catch someone doing it?

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

I've got a similar question, in the vein of The Gorn's mysterious experiences.

Would it be wrong to have with me a card-dex printout of cards I don't use, or to have an english card on the side for a "translation?" Doesn't seem right somehow...

And a similar but less devious thought about special condition counters.

 

[SteveP]

How would anyone be able to identify it? How would anyone be able to catch someone doing it?

Subtle bluffing might be tough. Anyway, it doesn't matter unless we first determine if it's illegal, which I highly doubt.

Collusion is hard to identify. That doesn't make it legal. So, your question is moot.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I've got a similar question, in the vein of The Gorn's mysterious experiences.

Would it be wrong to have with me a card-dex printout of cards I don't use, or to have an english card on the side for a "translation?" Doesn't seem right somehow...

And a similar but less devious thought about special condition counters.

Personally, I disallow non-deck cards in the play area. I've often told players that they can't have their good-luck Pokemon card in the play area. The same goes for the translations. You can't display card-dex printouts for cards that aren't in your deck, unless of course you printed out the entire page.

Regarding Gorn's example, that's a tricky one. Personally, I wouldn't allow non-deck cards in the play area once you sit down and start shuffling and setting up, ESPECIALLY if that Crawdaunt was sleeved exactly like your deck.

Special conditions counters and status effects MUST match the effect. Anything else would be dubious and against the rules. The rules are very clear about that.

 

[yoshi1001]

I wasn't making a statement.
I was actually asking.

Sorry. Misread that.

Would it be wrong to have with me a card-dex printout of cards I don't use, or to have an english card on the side for a "translation?" Doesn't seem right somehow...

I don't think there's any problem with that, particularly if you know that your opponent(s) tend to use a lot of foreign cards. I would make sure you know where your cards are on there, though.

 

[The Gorn]

Personally, I disallow non-deck cards in the play area. I've often told players that they can't have their good-luck Pokemon card in the play area. The same goes for the translations. You can't display card-dex printouts for cards that aren't in your deck, unless of course you printed out the entire page.

I agree with this. If it's not part of the game, don't have it in the play area when the game starts.

Regarding Gorn's example, that's a tricky one. Personally, I wouldn't allow non-deck cards in the play area once you sit down and start shuffling and setting up, ESPECIALLY if that Crawdaunt was sleeved exactly like your deck.

I believe that I can carry whatever I want in my card box. As I said, I was quick to put it in my pocket before the game actually began. I never misrepresented the card (i.e., I never said it was a translation or proxy) and when asked if I was playing it, I never said that I was playing it.

People can think whatever they want. It's not my job to stop them. LOL

 

[NoPoke]

Players give off signals (tells?) all the time. In RPS the head games are part if not most of the game.

But I don't see how you can get from there to considering deliberate attempts to decieve through non game actions as complying with good Spirit of the Game.

As judges we give a lot of weight to what players say they intended to do when an incorrect card is accidentally dropped that does not match what was said. We presume honesty. Further I'm not sure that parents would be happy about their youngsters taking part in a game where deception is encouraged. Win by all means not by any means.

Attempting to manipulate the game through distraction is covered in the Penalty Guidelines. I find lies distracting....

 

[SLOW DECK]

???
I often tell people that Pokemon is a brilliant mix between Chess and Poker.
Chess is the obvious strategic aspects of the game.

Poker is not just the random elements of the game, but also trying to read your opponent at a critical part of the game, "Do you risk the attack, does he have the counter attack, does he have the card?"

The non-verbal aspects are fine and fun. I try not to give any "tells" fake or real, but it is fun to watch others when they try to give them.

A player that verbally says that "I don't have any plus powers or charms in my deck, and does." Seems wrong and anti SOTG.

When I think of distracting, I think of my opponent at nationals 2005, where he was saying in jest (maybe), that I couldn't attach a basic energy to my active pokemon because he had Battle Frontier and a fighting pokemon in play. The game wasn't in fun mode, he made me stop my execution of my turn to listen to his babble, and since it was about the 3rd time he interupted the mechanics of one my turns with this sort of nonsense, I had to call a judge. (Vince), who gave him a verbal warning, but I was rather mad at this guy, because his saying things that was intentionally distracting to interupt my turn. SmallTalking during matches is one thing, saying STOP, you can do this, as a joke, PO'd me, and I thought was worthing of a penalty if this was the guys normal Method of Operation.

(Hey, Ian, Happy Belated Birthday)

 

[meganium45]

I remember that Guy!

I actually caught him doing it a second time, and told him, if I saw it a third, it would be a Prize Penalty, then made sure to find him in the following rounds and later....

He did finally shut up, at least while I was around.

Vince

 

[SteveP]

SlowDeck, I agree that disruptions are illegal. That is clearly spelled out in the Penalty Guidelines and SOTG. If a bluffing tactic causes your opponent to make a game-play or procedural error, then that's wrong and is subject to being penalized. But if the bluffing is merely designed to cause re-direction, I say that's a GOOD tactic.

NoPoke, keep honesty in context of SOTG. "Playing tricks" on people is one of the "spices of life." Obviously, the trick can get out of hand, but life would be really boring if we were always honest and straight with each other.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I believe that I can carry whatever I want in my card box. As I said, I was quick to put it in my pocket before the game actually began. I never misrepresented the card (i.e., I never said it was a translation or proxy) and when asked if I was playing it, I never said that I was playing it.

People can think whatever they want. It's not my job to stop them. LOL

If I caught you with 61 cards in your deck box, all sleeved alike, I'd give you a deck penalty.

I'm not talking about keeping the promo card in your deck box (unsleeved or in a different sleeve). That's okay. But if I walked by and saw Crawdaunt sitting on the top of your deck, face up, sleeved like your deck, I might grab your deck and do a deck check. If you were able to convince me it was just a bluff, I'd still give you a caution and tell you not to do it again.

A bluff CANNOT involve something that is clearly illegal (ie., more than 60 cards in your deck, turning your discard pile upside down, failing to mark special conditions).

 

[ShadowGuard]

You can forbid lying by rules, but you can't forbid bluffing.

You can sigh or call "yay" so that most player can make their (true or false) conclusions of this. And there is no possibility to prevent this by rules.

Same thing is to say you have a "good" or "bad" hand. This is relative and subjective, but players can try manipulate the opponent's decision of playing Wager or not.


But some action could be considered as lack of sportmanship, for example, if your opponent is thinking about his turn and you say "just attack, I don't have a Scramble/PlusPower/whatever anyway", but actually, you have one. In some cases it's difficult for a judge to determine the difference between a simple bluff and heavy gamesmanship.


btw, you can even bluff by only setting your deck list.
In my local countries TCG forum, someone suggested to play a single Duskull in some decks to make the opponent fear a Dusknoir that doesn't exist. In my opionion, this is a nice trick and doesn't hurt the SOTG, but it's still considered bluffing.

 

[SLOW DECK]

A proxy card for Crawdawnt EX is a fairly intentional "influence" card. Having it Pinked Sleeved, where your deck is blue sleeve, I would think that is OK. (Non Judge thought) Having it same color sleeve, then I would agree with those who think it might warrant a penalty that that card could be in your deck. (Even if you don't have a Corphish in your deck, the fact that an extra card in your deck box could easily get into the slipperly slope of a tech card and an illegal side board.)


Let's get into another issue that is of the same line of the Poker reference. A player trying to "draw out" information out of their opponent.

I was playing my ZERO supportor deck this last week at Regionals. Round 7, I am matched up against a Garny/Gallade deck, and during the my 3rd turn, my opponent asked the question/statement
"You don't run supportors in your deck."
At that moment I could have responded 3 ways, Answer Yes (the truth), Answer No (a lie), or Answer Maybe. The player was playing a Garnivor, thus it was a material question. This sort of statement is something a poker player would use to try to draw out information. Like the question, "Do you have a plus power in hand."

But, I would hate to have a pokemon match be slowed down by a LONG series of "obtuse" questions, by a player trying to draw out their opponent, like we see in the "world series of poker",

 

[skarmory777]

I used to always put a Crawdaunt ex on top of my deck, face up. When I pulled my deck from the box, I would set it on the table so my opponent could see, as I stashed my bag and such beneath my chair.

I would see the Crawdaunt ex and quickly put it into my pocket.

Of course, the Crawdaunt ex wasn't part of my deck. It was just a "lucky card."

You would not believe how many times my opponent would make sure that they put no more than 3 Pokemon on their bench.

I'm not sure why...

I remember that! It definatly would've worked against me...except you dropped your cards while shuffling. Good strategy.

Anyway, bluffing is part of the game. It makes things interesting. Your opponent should expect what might happen despite what you say. I've had the same thing happen to me on occasion and chose to do my normal set-up and make sure whatever I played could still counter whatever it was they were looking for. It's the players choice on what they want to believe. Besides, you have no idea what card they could be looking for, and assuming is just as bad as making a misplay.

 

[Lordofflareons]

I love bluffing. Every game, if someone says, "did i attach yet?" i answer yes. "Did i evolve this turn?" Yes. The only person you can trust in a game is yourself and the judge. Just dont ask anything and only base wghat they mioght have in the hand on what you have seen, dont ask, " you got the x to win?"

 

[pichu bros. rox]

i remember a friend of mine asked if i played wager so he knew if he needed to get out is rps cards or not. i wouldn't tell him and maybe means yes so i said no. i do beleive that was the right thing to do so what do you think?

 

[ShadowCard]

I thought bluffing was forbidden by the Penalty Guideliness. I read somewhere (if not here than the POP forum) that it falls under intimidation and/or taunting.

Say, Player A is playing a deck with delta pokemon that use -Powers. Player B realizes this and says, in a smartallic-like mannor, "good thing I've got my tech Holon Legacy." Even if Player B does in fact have Holon Legacy in the deck, Player B is guilty of attempting to intimidate/taunt his opponent.

So, it's not so much "is Player B being truthful," it is whether or not Player B is taunting/intimidating/mocking his opponent.

 

[lolganium]

I love bluffing. Every game, if someone says, "did i attach yet?" i answer yes. "Did i evolve this turn?" Yes. The only person you can trust in a game is yourself and the judge. Just dont ask anything and only base wghat they mioght have in the hand on what you have seen, dont ask, " you got the x to win?"

telling them they have attached when they havnt aint bluffing, its bad sportsmanship and imoral in general

 

[PokePop]

I was playing my ZERO supportor deck this last week at Regionals. Round 7, I am matched up against a Garny/Gallade deck, and during the my 3rd turn, my opponent asked the question/statement
"You don't run supportors in your deck."
At that moment I could have responded 3 ways, Answer Yes (the truth), Answer No (a lie), or Answer Maybe. The player was playing a Garnivor, thus it was a material question. This sort of statement is something a poker player would use to try to draw out information.

My answer to that question would be, "I haven't played any yet".

Players are not required to give away information. Being ambiguous and allowing the opponent to make assumptions is fine.

Outright lying would violate SotG.