Bad Gamesmanship- This needs to stop NOW.

[P_A]

You do have a point Steve. However again, here on the gym neither you nor I can be 100% certain that the attitude you mentioned is different in real life. I guarantee a brousque attitude here is no indication of a brousque attitude irl in my case. At events I try very hard to be the voice of reason, and have a more upbeat personality than I can ever show here online. But I can also guarantee you that my frustration is sincere here and irl. I honestly have no idea why someone would neglect letting a judge in on a problem AT THE TIME, where they can get a proper solution. I have no problem with Clear making this thread, nor the contents - in principle. However I also know that Clear, along with many others has had opportunity to help correct the problem. What further do we need to say? I'd love to be able to have the time to personally judge every match at an event. That's because I love watching good matches. Alas, both time and space are unwilling to grant me that privilege. So I HAVE to rely on the players to be willing to help me. Let's face it, I'm doing this for them in the first place.

 

[Lawman]

Lawman, In this specific instance another judge(Who was judging for his first time ALONE in Masters) was watching my match and even supported me when I asked my opponent to speed up. The issue was reported, and even taken up to the PTO.

I'm not asking for a call reversal here. I want the players to know that this problem is occurring and to keep an eye out for it.

I have judged here in Central Florida and run into this very issue in Seniors. I know it's a hard call to make, and I know that if it isn't brought to a judges attention early it can't be acted upon. I was under the impression that the judge that was watching was aware of the issue, as he heard and acknowledged me telling my opponent that his turns are taking too long.

He acted like he had no idea what was going on when I asked for the head judge, and told her I had neither said anything nor asked for his attention, when I had done both.

As I said though, I want players to be aware of this sickening example of gamesmanship.

Thx for the further explanation. I understand now (and feel your pain).

Keith

 

[bullados]

Why is people being so rude? I played at cities last Sunday and two of my oppents cursed through the whole match and kept lieing about how much damage he could do for turn. I am not an expired player and someone did that on me. I ask the judge about it and my opponent lied about the whole thing. Is there any to aroud these.

Call the Judge over IMMEDIATELY, explain the entire situation, and if nothing is done, ask if there's any possibility of the match and the opponent being viewed for an extended period of time. This is (IMO) not rules lawyering. This is keeping the game respectful and peaceful for as long as possible.

 

[Jaeger]

I have asked a judge to watch my game, and I have had an opponent ask a judge to watch our game. Never took it personally, I feel a judge should never be used to gain an advantage, (such as asking pointless ruling a player already knows the answer to). However not knowing about your rights does put you at a significtic disadvantage (such as not calling a judge over to watch the base of the game). Bullados hit the nail on the head call the judge over immeditly(wow I can't spell tonight)

 

[bulbasnore]

Players need to call the judge during the match if there is gamesmanship and/or game breaking little misplays:

<< oops, I guess you're right, that _was_ my second luxury ball to the discard, sorry
>> oh, that's ok, just shuffle back in
​

¡ :nonono: !

Call the judge , that's my position , proud of it :biggrin:, think the game is better for it :thumb: and I'm sticking to it :tongue:.

If players misdirect/misplay or judges don't get the call right, you can discuss the _situation_ and _events_ here, but watch your personal attacks (everyone should grok the difference between recounting your view of events and accusing someone of cheating/favoritism). However, I reserve the right to post and ask if it was reported to PUI & the TO.

I'm certainly not saying don't discuss it here, reported or not. No doubt about it, the Gym welcomes your discussion your difficult situations. Witness this thread.

 

[Crosplat]

Always call a judge over. I know this has been said before, but obviously some people aren't getting the message because we still have people complaining about the bad things their opponent did to them. Calling a judge over does not make you a bad person because if your opponent is innocent they won't mind. I've called judges over and have had my opponent call judges over, and the game was better because of it. Basically, call the judge over when you think there is a problem and your tournament experience will be much better.

 

[DarthPika]

Players need to call the judge during the match if there is gamesmanship and/or game breaking little misplays:

<< oops, I guess you're right, that _was_ my second luxury ball to the discard, sorry
>> oh, that's ok, just shuffle back in
​

¡ :nonono: !

Call the judge , that's my position , proud of it :biggrin:, think the game is better for it :thumb: and I'm sticking to it :tongue:.

If players misdirect/misplay or judges don't get the call right, you can discuss the _situation_ and _events_ here, but watch your personal attacks (everyone should grok the difference between recounting your view of events and accusing someone of cheating/favoritism). However, I reserve the right to post and ask if it was reported to PUI & the TO.

I'm certainly not saying don't discuss it here, reported or not. No doubt about it, the Gym welcomes your discussion your difficult situations. Witness this thread.

And I give Snore a 8/10 for managing to effectively use 6/14 smilies in 1 post! :lol:

Seems the bottom line here is, you see something odd, CALL A JUDGE!

 

[SteveP]

You do have a point Steve. However again, here on the gym neither you nor I can be 100% certain that the attitude you mentioned is different in real life. I guarantee a brousque attitude here is no indication of a brousque attitude irl in my case. At events I try very hard to be the voice of reason, and have a more upbeat personality than I can ever show here online...

There are PTOs/HJs out there who are the ultimate examples of calmness and reason, regardless of what "hat they are wearing," whether they're wearing the lab coat or acting as contributers in the forums (BDS and M45 are just a couple that quickly come to mind). Then, there are those who are probably outstanding PTOs/HJs, but come across poorly sometimes when discussing issues of critique here. I will try to point out those attitudes and not equate it to being a poor PTO/HJ. If I ever cross that line, tell me and I'll correct myself.

However, I reserve the right to post and ask if it was reported to PUI & the TO.

I'm certainly not saying don't discuss it here, reported or not. No doubt about it, the Gym welcomes your discussion your difficult situations. Witness this thread.

So Kim, does NOT reporting it make the discussion less valid?

Sorry Steve, I understand what you're saying , but that is not a subject we would consider discussing on a PG site, thanks for understanding. P_A. ....does that make it less valid? :nonono:

Whenever I see a PTO/HJ asking, "did you report it," I sometimes sense a snubbing attitude or disregarding tone, ESPECIALLY if they say, "not a damn thing can be done about it."

 

[JandPDS]

There are PTOs/HJs out there who are the ultimate examples of calmness and reason, regardless of what "hat they are wearing," whether they're wearing the lab coat or acting as contributers in the forums (BDS and M45 are just a couple that quickly come to mind). Then, there are those who are probably outstanding PTOs/HJs, but come across poorly sometimes when discussing issues of critique here. I will try to point out those attitudes and not equate it to being a poor PTO/HJ. If I ever cross that line, tell me and I'll correct myself.


So Kim, does NOT reporting it make the discussion less valid?



Whenever I see a PTO/HJ asking, "did you report it," I sometimes sense a snubbing attitude or disregarding tone, ESPECIALLY if they say, "not a damn thing can be done about it."

When someone is cheating and you do not report it durring the match, there is nothing the judge can do about it after the fact. Once the slip is signed by both players it is then too late to report the rule abuses that may have occured durring the game. My 5 year old daughter understands that when a players is not following the rules she is not supposed to argue with them but raise her hand for a judge. When she was playing an eight or nine year old earlier this year and she flipped her 4 dice for Machamps Hurricane punch attack, she flipped two heads, but the other player refuesed to put the damage on and tried to convince her that she only flipped tails. (we have drilled the fact that heads are 2,4,6 so she knew he was not being honest about her result) The judge was in the area and heard the discussion between the players, and stayed and watched the match to its compleation, and my daughter went onto win that game. So if a 5 year old understands to get a judge invloved when something is ammis, I think anyone can remember that concept.

 

[SteveP]

When someone is cheating and you do not report it durring the match, there is nothing the judge can do about it after the fact. Once the slip is signed by both players it is then too late to report the rule abuses that may have occured durring the game. My 5 year old daughter understands that when a players is not following the rules she is not supposed to argue with them but raise her hand for a judge. When she was playing an eight or nine year old earlier this year and she flipped her 4 dice for Machamps Hurricane punch attack, she flipped two heads, but the other player refuesed to put the damage on and tried to convince her that she only flipped tails. (we have drilled the fact that heads are 2,4,6 so she knew he was not being honest about her result) The judge was in the area and heard the discussion between the players, and stayed and watched the match to its compleation, and my daughter went onto win that game. So if a 5 year old understands to get a judge invloved when something is ammis, I think anyone can remember that concept.

Absolutely correct! Teach your children well.

Nevertheless, my point is this: Sometimes it's not entirely clear why someone doesn't report some hideous act in a timely fashion.

My hope is that when something hideous DOES get reported, it's not shrugged off, but rather handled in a tactful, caring manner.

That's all.

 

[ugly psyducky]

Absolutely correct! Teach your children well.

Nevertheless, my point is this: Sometimes it's not entirely clear why someone doesn't report some hideous act in a timely fashion.

My hope is that when something hideous DOES get reported, it's not shrugged off, but rather handled in a tactful, caring manner.

Interesting question, particularly the last point. If you go back through the original author's posts you will see that in neither case did the judging staff "shrug off" the matter. The problem here is the more "hideous" the action, the higher the standard of proof that is required by the judge in order to assess the appropriate "hideous" penalty. I myself would only argue for a GL or a DQ when the facts were 100% not in question. No question disqualifying someone from a tournament pretty much is going to ruin a bunch of peoples day at the tourney including mine.

The question is when the same player(s) across a number of events are seen in situations where there is some, but not conclusive evidence of "dubious" behaviour -- what can be done. The Penalty Guidelines are pretty clear here only POP has the ability to impose penalty across more than one event. But does that mean that as a judge you continue to give these individuals the benefit of the doubt from tournament to tournament?

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am moving this to a hypothetical question realm and not a comment about play in our region, in which I believe we are far from the dire picture which seems to be painted, especially in terms of issues actually reported to the judging staff. But the hypothetical question seems to be quite valid.

 

[P_A]

Oh, yes, for sure. Even if the problem is reported after the fact, a judge has at least an obligation to consider carefully the implications of a problem. However, if nothing short of keeping en eye out for the next time can be accomplished, then how much advantage is that? I'd like to quote a sig I saw on the professor boards. I hope I'm doing it justice since I don't have it in front of me at the moment: "If I make it idiot proof - won't they just adapt?" Usually sooner or later those that come under scrutiny wise up and adapt, sometimes to a better course of action, but sometimes they become hardened to even more bold incidents. However if the problem is fixed at the earliest stages - when the problem exists in the first place - chances are much better that the proper conclusion will come about. I never shrug off a problem at any of my events, but always strive to have better and better events. Any good PTO would do the same - even if the problems are reported after the fact. I just wish more problems were reported when they happen.

 

[P_A]

Interesting question,.....No question disqualifying someone from a tournament pretty much is going to ruin a bunch of peoples day at the tourney including mine.

The question is when the same player(s) across a number of events are seen in situations where there is some, but not conclusive evidence of "dubious" behaviour -- what can be done. The Penalty Guidelines are pretty clear here only POP has the ability to impose penalty across more than one event. But does that mean that as a judge you continue to give these individuals the benefit of the doubt from tournament to tournament?

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am moving this to a hypothetical question realm and not a comment about play in our region, in which I believe we are far from the dire picture which seems to be painted, especially in terms of issues actually reported to the judging staff. But the hypothetical question seems to be quite valid.

Hypothecically speaking .... we have no definite directives in this matter, however, in the guidelines it does stipulate that younger players should receive the benefit of the doubt since they are generally less informed or not quite as experienced, and in the case of a person who has a history of repeated violations of a particular type, a higher than normal starting penalty assessment can be made when a player does the same action as previous history has been reported and dealt with. However, I would assume there would have to be some discussion of proof. Can it be proven that a player has a history of a certain problem? If so, then yes, a different starting penalty is apropriate. If not, we as judges have to be careful.

 

[Lawman]

I guess some clarification needs to be made. PTOs/HJs/Judges DO want to know about dubious tactics that may have been used in a match, whether it is during the match OR after. It helps us to keep an eye out for future issues w/ said player(s). The problem the OP and this thread seems to have in common is what can be done after the fact when it isn't reported. As for "sour grapes" and the "I was cheated/rooked/(insert word)" of of a proper win, "we" cannot change the match result after the fact. We CAN address the issue(s) with the player(s), even after the fact.

I recall one player last year, shortly ofter we got some of the unowns released and they were playing unown K (Kind). They claimed to their oppo that K would stack if multiple Ks were in play (correct) and that it healed the active pokemon. (partially correct) So, they had a tank up like Wailord and the other player couldnt OHKO it and each turn, the player would heal off all or most of said damage via K's power. The problem with this is the healing power of K is for your OPPONENT's active poke, not your own! Neither of the player's 1st 2 oppo's called a judge over to verify this "explanation" by the player. The K player went 2-0 to start the day at a State's. I as a Judge overheard some players talking about this deck w/ K in it and how hard it was to kill the dang deck, with the cumlative healing power. I jumped in and asked who the player was and explained the power went to the oppo's active. The player was dumbfounded to say the least. They also knew they would have won the game if the card was played correctly. As the HJ for the event, I went to the player w/ K in the deck, explained how the power truly worked (he really thought it healed his own poke!) and advised him to play it correctly the rest of the day and if he didnt, and I found out he played it wrong, I would penalize him harshly, now that he knew the correct way to play it. Bottom line, he played it correctly the rest of the day (basically, never benched it unless he had to, didnt use its power once) and he went 0-X for the rest of the day. He thought he had "broke the format" with the deck.

Keith

 

[SD PokeMom]

Whenever I see a PTO/HJ asking, "did you report it," I sometimes sense a snubbing attitude or disregarding tone, ESPECIALLY if they say, "not a damn thing can be done about it."

so my stating the FACT that if alleged problems at a tourney are not brought up to the staff then and there but only afterwards via tourney report on the 'gym that there really isn't anything that the judge or TO can do about it means i'm 'shrugging', 'snubbing' or 'disregarding' it?

i think you're reading things that are not there into my post.

i was expressing the FRUSTRATION judges/TOs face when we only become aware of problems at our events AFTERWARDS reading someone's report of said event on a forum like this...the frustration of running what we think was a good, smooth event and then coming home to read all these things that supposedly happened but we were NEVER made aware of at the time when something could actually be DONE about it.

if expressing that frustration in the same venue as these event complaints are made in after-the-fact makes you believe that said complaints would be handled by me AT the event by saying 'too bad' and blowing them off...well, i don't know what to say other than you clearly don't know me at all.

'mom

 

[P_A]

Well said 'Mom. That's exactly what I thought when I saw your earlier comment.

It is very very frustrating to have to deal with complaints after the fact when it would have been so much easier to deal with if someone brought it up at the proper time. That doesn't mean that we don't deal with it. We certainly do. 'Mom's reaction was entirely logical. That's why I made the comment that things aren't always what they seem.

 

[SteveP]

so my stating the FACT that if alleged problems at a tourney are not brought up to the staff then and there but only afterwards via tourney report on the 'gym that there really isn't anything that the judge or TO can do about it means i'm 'shrugging', 'snubbing' or 'disregarding' it?

i think you're reading things that are not there into my post.

i was expressing the FRUSTRATION judges/TOs face when we only become aware of problems at our events AFTERWARDS reading someone's report of said event on a forum like this...the frustration of running what we think was a good, smooth event and then coming home to read all these things that supposedly happened but we were NEVER made aware of at the time when something could actually be DONE about it.

if expressing that frustration in the same venue as these event complaints are made in after-the-fact makes you believe that said complaints would be handled by me AT the event by saying 'too bad' and blowing them off...well, i don't know what to say other than you clearly don't know me at all.

'mom

Contrar. In an earlier post, I said "perceived" attitudes of PTOs/HJs here should NOT indicate poor performance on-the-job, perhaps not in those exact words, but that was my point.

Plus, there IS something you can do about it, if you believe the complaint is valid. It still might not completely appease the victim, but at least the victim might get some sense of satisfaction if you handle the complaint without becoming frustrated.

I work in a customer service related field (Student Financial Services at a small university). Sometimes complaints result from bad service, but more often from non-action by the "adult" students. For example, they didn't pay their tuition on time, so we disenrolled them. Regardless that we sent them numerous bills and posted the due date everywhere on campus and our website, I will do my best to help the student get re-enrolled. I can't reverse the disenrollment, but I CAN educate the student and help him seek some resolution, without becoming frustrated.

Like it or not, PTOs/HJs exist because there are players/customers.

 

[Jaeger]

I know our HJ always makes a big deal about bring to the judge attention when it happens and they can't do much later. Do other areas also do this?

 

[SteveP]

I know our HJ always makes a big deal about bring to the judge attention when it happens and they can't do much later. Do other areas also do this?

I know my PTO likes to hear both the good and bad about how things went at his events. And, he DOES do something about it, even if it's nothing more than taking a mental note so that things are smoother/better in the future.

But, to answer your question, I've heard similiar comments at tournaments I've attended.

 

[Jaeger]

I forgot to put before the event starts, Its part of our HJ player meeting