Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Bad Gamesmanship- This needs to stop NOW.

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For those of you who need a definition of “Gamesmanship”, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamesmanship for a brief read.

Now before I continue any further, let me first say that I will not use any names in this post, nor will I state where I come from. I want to at least give those people some dignity, the little from what is left of it, and may be they would get a clue.

The acts these people have done are wrong and contributed to bad gamesmanship, and they have not only done them once, they did it over and over again, consistently from Battle Road to Battle Roads, Cities to Cities, Provincial to Nationals, for the past two years.

The following is just from my observations from this year alone so far done by these players, whether they are playing against me, or playing against other players.

- Played Kingdra against me, Kingdra active after KO one more my Pokemon. Just before my turn begin, counted out loud to 11 at his discard pile, “claiming” to 11 Water Energies in his discard pile. Before I pushed a Pokemon up, I checked his discard pile myself and only found 6. I turned the other cheek on this one and continued playing. Do not ask me why I did that.
- Observed, His opponent uses Gallade's Psychic Cut against his active, knocking it out by flipping one prize, which was a Ralts, his opponent flashed the Ralts and picked it up and his prize for the KO. Just as his opponent does that, he raised his hand and called judge and claimed he didn't showed the prize. Needless to say, his opponent was very crossed for getting on him for a technicality.
- Constantly asking a judge for Raichu Lv. X's Link Lightning ruling about its non-existent time delay, on several occasions, Cities after Cities with different judges, when they clearly knew what the card is and are just stalling for time.

This is just few examples of things these players have done and have gotten away with, and it doesn't stop with gamesmanship. Their basic tactic is to distract judges by chatting with them, and sometimes intimidate their opponent (like the Kingdra example above). They have done this a lot, and have perfected the ways to perform them with little to no delay. More often than not, the judges that arrives at a conflict are confused and they will winded up getting away with it.

I have complained (among a few people) to the tournament organizers, but it is hard to get their attention since gamesmanship is a delicate issue that is hard to deal with. Also, the people that played against him did not wish to come out to the TO with a testimony of sorts, and also that I am a bad sportsman (at certain times, and working on improving it over the years), that didn't go over so well with them, I would suspect.

Honestly, sometimes what these people do is absolutely ridiculous. His opponent has a cold and sneezed, he then asks a judge to bring a Kleenex, the judge done so, and then he has the nerve to ask for a 5 minute extension because of the “delay”.

Also, they are infamous for being “fake” humble after a game, usually a good sportsman will just say “Good Game” after he wins, but this one person from their group says something along the lines of “I learned a lot from playing with you! Thank you so much for a great game!”, when actually he was just playing against another player who has a bad hand playing Machamp, and he was playing Machamp as well. (rolls eyes)

Me and a few of my friends have almost had it with these people, when they are in any of the tournaments, all the players have to constantly deal with their stalling, rulesharking and general poor gamesmanship. For me, I have more fun talking about the things with my friends they have done in the car ride back, then actually dealing with them at the tournament.

I made this post so I can bring some of the things that I have said to light and ask those of you who are judges and Pokemon Professors for advice on what can be done, is there anything in the rules that can be used? One of my friends is a Professor, and he said that these acts can be called on and penalized. If so, I would love to hear it so I can suggest them to the TOs in our tournaments.

And If you are reading this, and actually somehow got a clue that I am talking about you, stop. Because the next time if you and your players do something like this, I would have to resort to reporting to the TO immediately at the tournament.
 
I've noticed this decline in my area as well. I guess thats what happens when the national champion plays near you and isn't the best role model. :/
 
The following happened at the last CC I went to:

I was on the losing side because my draws were utterly horrendous . I lose and my opponent goes and tells everyone about his 'marvelous' victory.

Now, it was in a side event and every Judge was busy and I wanted to go home. I do have to say that I don't know what to do about people that act like that (I estimate my opponent to be around 20 y/o).

Anyone got any ideas on those kind of situations?
 
I really don't like when people break out the curse words.
Once this guy yelled out the F word I'm like -.-' erm it's just a game.
He was called on other SOTG incidences too, but totally got away with cursing.

There's someone else here who takes it wayyy to seriously when he loses.
And they claim to play "just for fun" yeah right. At a tournament they forgot about Hunnycomb defender and literally SLAMMED the table. (they tried to KO a Scizor with Cress lv x take 2 prizes attack) [40-40=0]. BAD SOTG.
This person also is usually ok playing me; one time a family member got DQed and then took it out on me looking at all my sleeve for "marked sleeves" wow and they were brand new sleeves too. I told him I had an extra 60 sleeves in my backpack and could re-sleeve; and then he's like o nevermind then; to me it seems like he wanted me to get in trouble cause he was bored.
Also when they don't loose it's kinda ironic, they go 4-1 and get 5th and mope around about it. sheesh.

There were many people compllaining about my almost all Japanese AMU deck; I kinda understand being that pixies DO look a like.
But I did have the translations; and the damage is clearly marked by 200 on Mesperit x lol.
 
"- Constantly asking a judge for Raichu Lv. X's Link Lightning ruling about its non-existent time delay, on several occasions, Cities after Cities with different judges, when they clearly knew what the card is and are just stalling for time."

Some times maybe the oppent isnt sure? idk............ But hey thats coming from me! =X

-stallin
ballin
CONOVER!
 
That's kind of mix between sportsmanship and gamemanship, I would know about sportsmanship, I've been there. Bad Sportsman can happen when you are say like having a really bad day, as in something like you hit your foot on the door in the morning, followed by a bus driver being 12 minutes late and almost screwed you up for registering (yes, this has happened to me before).

I don't break out cuss words (anything on network TV before 6:00 pm is fine imo), but I am loud, I'm one of those people that speaks, but then gradually increase my tone to almost yelling as I continue talking, even though that is not my intention, so people often misunderstands when I'm actually unsportsmanlike, or I am just "talking"

The problem here is, they do it frequently and they act as if they are doing it unconsciously, despite a TO did actually approach them on several occasions about bad gamesmanship conduct.

@Brady: Do people in your area do things like those things I mentioned though? I highly doubt anyone would look up to him after that whole "Victory was won" spectacle.
 
For those of you who need a definition of “Gamesmanship”, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamesmanship for a brief read.

Now before I continue any further, let me first say that I will not use any names in this post, nor will I state where I come from. I want to at least give those people some dignity, the little from what is left of it, and may be they would get a clue.

The acts these people have done are wrong and contributed to bad gamesmanship, and they have not only done them once, they did it over and over again, consistently from Battle Road to Battle Roads, Cities to Cities, Provincial to Nationals, for the past two years.

The following is just from my observations from this year alone so far done by these players, whether they are playing against me, or playing against other players.

- Played Kingdra against me, Kingdra active after KO one more my Pokemon. Just before my turn begin, counted out loud to 11 at his discard pile, “claiming” to 11 Water Energies in his discard pile. Before I pushed a Pokemon up, I checked his discard pile myself and only found 6. I turned the other cheek on this one and continued playing. Do not ask me why I did that.
- Observed, His opponent uses Gallade's Psychic Cut against his active, knocking it out by flipping one prize, which was a Ralts, his opponent flashed the Ralts and picked it up and his prize for the KO. Just as his opponent does that, he raised his hand and called judge and claimed he didn't showed the prize. Needless to say, his opponent was very crossed for getting on him for a technicality.
- Constantly asking a judge for Raichu Lv. X's Link Lightning ruling about its non-existent time delay, on several occasions, Cities after Cities with different judges, when they clearly knew what the card is and are just stalling for time.

This is just few examples of things these players have done and have gotten away with, and it doesn't stop with gamesmanship. Their basic tactic is to distract judges by chatting with them, and sometimes intimidate their opponent (like the Kingdra example above). They have done this a lot, and have perfected the ways to perform them with little to no delay. More often than not, the judges that arrives at a conflict are confused and they will winded up getting away with it.

I have complained (among a few people) to the tournament organizers, but it is hard to get their attention since gamesmanship is a delicate issue that is hard to deal with. Also, the people that played against him did not wish to come out to the TO with a testimony of sorts, and also that I am a bad sportsman (at certain times, and working on improving it over the years), that didn't go over so well with them, I would suspect.

Honestly, sometimes what these people do is absolutely ridiculous. His opponent has a cold and sneezed, he then asks a judge to bring a Kleenex, the judge done so, and then he has the nerve to ask for a 5 minute extension because of the “delay”.

Also, they are infamous for being “fake” humble after a game, usually a good sportsman will just say “Good Game” after he wins, but this one person from their group says something along the lines of “I learned a lot from playing with you! Thank you so much for a great game!”, when actually he was just playing against another player who has a bad hand playing Machamp, and he was playing Machamp as well. (rolls eyes)

Me and a few of my friends have almost had it with these people, when they are in any of the tournaments, all the players have to constantly deal with their stalling, rulesharking and general poor gamesmanship. For me, I have more fun talking about the things with my friends they have done in the car ride back, then actually dealing with them at the tournament.

I made this post so I can bring some of the things that I have said to light and ask those of you who are judges and Pokemon Professors for advice on what can be done, is there anything in the rules that can be used? One of my friends is a Professor, and he said that these acts can be called on and penalized. If so, I would love to hear it so I can suggest them to the TOs in our tournaments.

And If you are reading this, and actually somehow got a clue that I am talking about you, stop. Because the next time if you and your players do something like this, I would have to resort to reporting to the TO immediately at the tournament.

If I was a head judging a tourney and saw that kind of behavior, I would give first a game loss, and if they didn't stop, DQ them. Players like that make me sick. If a DQ wasn't enough to stop their poor sportsman ship, I would seriously think about seeing if they could be banned for an extended period of time. :nonono:
 
The following happened at the last CC I went to:

I was on the losing side because my draws were utterly horrendous . I lose and my opponent goes and tells everyone about his 'marvelous' victory.

Now, it was in a side event and every Judge was busy and I wanted to go home. I do have to say that I don't know what to do about people that act like that (I estimate my opponent to be around 20 y/o).

Anyone got any ideas on those kind of situations?

Yea this is really common in yu-gi-oh

If they win: It was an amazing victory
If they lose: It was only becuase they got donked
 
Actually is wasnt a donk, but in ygo you call this bad luck. Normally you insult your opponent as a lucker after the game. Sure enough if you draw an OTK on your first hand its pure skill. (If you see someone talkking about skill and luck, its a YGO player for sure ;) )

But there are worse storys about ygo players actually, some stuff I don't even want to tell to not give anyone bad ideas :/


But why didn't you get a judge for the energie count stuff ?


Something that happened to me before is that an opponent who is losing suddenly wants to see your reference cards. Even if the card is on the field in english as well / he has the card in his deck himself. :nonono: :nonono:
 
I love those situations. One of my kids had this happen at a tournament in juniors several years ago, but still relevant. My child was playing a deck with stage 2 Pokemon and rare candy, as was the opponent. When my child played a rare candy to evlove from basic to stage 2 the other player yelled something like, " what , you cant do that! Let me see that card!" In the process the other player yanked the rare candy away from my child, damaging the holo rare candy. When I complained to the jiuge, i was told that the other player had evey right to look at the cards at any time. And as far as the other player yelling and damaging the card, well thats was just too bad. The funny thing was, the other player had already used rare candy during that game, and this particular game was in top cut, so you know thw card had been used before that point by both of them and probably others. Now tell me where does a 10 and under player learn such things, and get taught that its ok to do things like this? Hmmm
 
Hmmmmm..... I was thinking the other day that there hasn't been an article on SOTG for a while....
 
If I was a head judging a tourney and saw that kind of behavior, I would give first a game loss, and if they didn't stop, DQ them. Players like that make me sick. If a DQ wasn't enough to stop their poor sportsman ship, I would seriously think about seeing if they could be banned for an extended period of time. :nonono:

But you can never be sure if it is true or not. The Kingdra ruling you can never be sure of. The opponent could've been counting his trainers in discard, whole discard pile, etc. He could have been counting ANYTHING. There's no way you could issue a game loss for that, there's no factual evidence. If he had said "9... 10... 11 ENERGIES," then that is a problem. But there's no way you can issue a DQ or game loss off of speculation.

In the case of the Raichu, while it is true that it is strange that he asks this EVERY tournament, there is no way the rules could call for a DQ or game loss for a ruling question from a tournament before. While it wouldn't happen in this situation, there would be room for bias from judges, as they could say to someone they don't like due to their style or something, "That's a warning, but a game loss because you swore at Battle Roads last year." That would be destructive of the system.

I don't think I quite understand your Gallade situation, however. If I am to understand, he picked up 2 prizes for one KO.

That simply doesn't qualify as gamesmanship, that's a direct meta-ruling violation and something entirely different than gamesmanship, and would definately need a game loss, as the prize can't be determined, unless it was flipped by Gallade previously, in which it would probably get a warning.

In the Raichu and Kingdra situations, there is simply not enough evidence to issue a DQ or Loss.
I am absolutely against this, but there isn't much that can be done except for trying to instate fair play into these players.
 
he did say "That's 11 to Aqua Stream." out loud, that should be enough evidence right there.

I should have done something there, wth was I thinking?
 
But you can never be sure if it is true or not. The Kingdra ruling you can never be sure of. The opponent could've been counting his trainers in discard, whole discard pile, etc. He could have been counting ANYTHING. There's no way you could issue a game loss for that, there's no factual evidence. If he had said "9... 10... 11 ENERGIES," then that is a problem. But there's no way you can issue a DQ or game loss off of speculation.

In the case of the Raichu, while it is true that it is strange that he asks this EVERY tournament, there is no way the rules could call for a DQ or game loss for a ruling question from a tournament before. While it wouldn't happen in this situation, there would be room for bias from judges, as they could say to someone they don't like due to their style or something, "That's a warning, but a game loss because you swore at Battle Roads last year." That would be destructive of the system.

I don't think I quite understand your Gallade situation, however. If I am to understand, he picked up 2 prizes for one KO.

That simply doesn't qualify as gamesmanship, that's a direct meta-ruling violation and something entirely different than gamesmanship, and would definately need a game loss, as the prize can't be determined, unless it was flipped by Gallade previously, in which it would probably get a warning.

In the Raichu and Kingdra situations, there is simply not enough evidence to issue a DQ or Loss.
I am absolutely against this, but there isn't much that can be done except for trying to instate fair play into these players.

Proof of what he is counting isn't needed to figure out what he's trying to suggest. If I knew someone had a bad rep, and was playing kingdra counting to high numbers looking at the discard, its very obvious that they are trying to influence their opponent. Trying to get your opponent to misplay is very close to cheating. If some one is knowingly trying to cheat, out they go.

Asking a Raichu ruling over and over again at every tourney (yes, we judges do have memories and someone obviously trying to stall by asking a bunch of rulings will be rememberd) is also something that CAN earn a GL.

TBH I feal that what these people are doing boarders on cheating. Didn't we already have this discussion about how almost all forms of bluffing arn't allowed?

About the Gallade ruling, his opponent fliped over 1 prize to KO the defending pokemon. That one prize was a ralts. He flashed it at his opponent, who then falsly claimed that he hadn't seen it.

Also, accidently drawing 2 prizes would NEVER warent a GL, a prize penelty at best.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

he did say "That's 11 to Aqua Stream." out loud, that should be enough evidence right there.

I should have done something there, wth was I thinking?

Ya, doing something like thats probably enough to get a GL for the master dev. Doing something like that again at the same tourney would be good a good enough reason for me to DQ them.

Senoirs or Juinors may not know as well, but a any master should deffinitly know that giving false info is never allowed.
 
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"That's 11 to Aqua Stream."

< Pardon me? [quietly, as if you didn't hear]
> That's 11 to Aqua Stream
< Ah, [a little louder] I did hear you say, that's eleven to Aqua Stream.
< Before I promote my card, can I see what else is in your discard?
> Er
< Thanks (counts 6 water)
< Judge?
<< Yes?
> After KO'ing my PKMN, but before I promoted my active. My opponent counted...
<< Excuse me, <opponent> did you say 11 to aqua stream?
> I don't remember.
<< Didn't this just happen? What did you say exactly?
> Well, I said "11 to aqua stream" but I was just calculating how much I need to KO.
<< Did you not just count from 1 to 11 on cards in your discard pile?
> Well, yes.
<< Why did you count 11 cards and then say, 11 to Aqua Stream?
> Just to let him know I needed 11 to KO.
<< Don't you think that makes it look like you have 11 water energy in your discard, since you counted 11 cards?
> Well, he can check the pile. Can't we get on with the game?
<< Why don't you guys freeze this game right here. I'll be back...
...
<< So, why did you count 11 cards and then say, 11 to Aqua Stream?
> I don't know.
<< Are you sure you can't give me a good reason for that?
> ... why do I have to?
<< The field judge will watch the table a minute, would you come with me over to the score table?

<< OK, let me ask you to read this part of the penalty guidelines that discusses severe unsporting conduct.
> [reads] That was NOT a deceptive action. He could look through the discard pile!!
<< Sorry, whatever your intent, counting 11 cards and immediately saying 11 to Aqua Stream gives the appearance you were trying to deceive your opponent into making a bad choice. You could not give me any reason why you counted 11 cards before making this statement. Therefore, I'm left with the conclusion, that counting 11 cards, only 6 were water energies and saying what you said was deceptive. Because of your actions, you will be assessed an unsporting severe penalty and you will not be allowed to continue in this tournament. Do you understand? Do you have any questions? Please ... come calmly and quietly to the table to collect your things...
 
Ya, doing something like thats probably enough to get a GL for the master dev. Doing something like that again at the same tourney would be good a good enough reason for me to DQ them.

Senoirs or Juinors may not know as well, but a any master should deffinitly know that giving false info is never allowed.

I played VS someone that said they only had 10 waters. and then i looked threw his discard pile he had 3 waters all the way in the back of the discard pile. i guess he was hoping that I wasnt gonna look that far?

So i guess i coulda called the judges over and he woulda gotta a GL or a DQ?

- stallin,
ballin,
CONOVER
 
he did say "That's 11 to Aqua Stream." out loud, that should be enough evidence right there.

I should have done something there, wth was I thinking?

Well, that makes a little more sense.

Did he count them out loud and then say "That's 11 to Aqua Stream" as 2 seperate actions, or was the "That's 11 to Aqua Stream" his "counting out loud?"

If the second, that could easily have been him declaring how many he needed to KO...
If the first, I understand.

Bulbasnore: I respect you as a judge and I know you are top-notch when it comes to judging, but could you explain why that results in a DQ? I mean, he clearly has to actually physically shuffle 11 into his deck, so I have no clue how he could do that magically when there are only 6 in the discard. Could you elaborate on why that destroys game state if his bluff simply can't be performed?

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I played VS someone that said they only had 10 waters. and then i looked threw his discard pile he had 3 waters all the way in the back of the discard pile. i guess he was hoping that I wasnt gonna look that far?

So i guess i coulda called the judges over and he woulda gotta a GL or a DQ?

- stallin,
ballin,
CONOVER

That doesn't even matter... you can choose how many waters you want to take out with Aqua Stream... he could have just said "I'll only remove 10" when he has 13...
 
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Originally posted by Penalty Guidlines

7.6.4. Cheating
Cheating is the highest form of Unsporting Conduct that a player can display. Players who
intentionally commit infractions are looking to gain an unfair advantage over other players at
the event. The Head Judge should carefully consider whether an infraction was intentional or not
before applying this penalty. If the Head Judge feels that an infraction was unintentional, this
penalty should not be applied.
Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Cheating include:
• Drawing extra cards.
• Taking cards from the discard pile and adding them to your hand or deck.
• Offering some form of compensation to an opponent for a concession.
• Altering match results after the conclusion of the match.
• Playing with marked cards.
• Lying to event staff.
• Modification of the Card-Dex to misrepresent official card text.
• Arbitrarily adjusting the Special Conditions or damage counters put on any Pokémon in
play.
• Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.

Notice the bolded part for the Kingdra situation. I'm not a judge, but 'snore is right. Yoyofsho, that's why they would get a DQ. You could compare this to the kid who showed his opponent a Rockets Admin but didn't play it at worlds a few years ago.
 
Notice the bolded part for the Kingdra situation. I'm not a judge, but 'snore is right. Yoyofsho, that's why they would get a DQ. You could compare this to the kid who showed his opponent a Rockets Admin but didn't play it at worlds a few years ago.

What about dropping thier opening hand on the floor between the chzari and the table then pulling cards out of thier pocket and using them for a T1, is that cheaating?

Yea I can't believe that I fell for that and did nit figure it out what happened unti after I initialled the slip.
 
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Notice the bolded part for the Kingdra situation. I'm not a judge, but 'snore is right. Yoyofsho, that's why they would get a DQ. You could compare this to the kid who showed his opponent a Rockets Admin but didn't play it at worlds a few years ago.

I got that, but I just didn't see how he could get an advantage, when the cards he has to shuffle aren't even present.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

What about dropping thier opening hand on the floor between the chzari and the table then pulling cards out of thier pocket and using them for a T1, is that cheaating?

Yea I can't believe that I fell for that and did nit figure it out what happened unti after I intialled the slip.

Wow, that's low, but more of cheating than bad gamesmanship. Are you sure that happened, or did a card fall in their lap or something?
 
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