Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

DeckBuilding like a CHAMPION . . .

haha my name is mentioned so many times and I haven't even posted yet :(

9 for me? I think so.

I'm probably not too great of a deck builder... on my own, at least. Working with friends and teammates and whatnot, I feel that at this point in my career I'm able to provide helpful fixes and ideas towards decks. Rambolt with Zach and most recently Abomasnow with Mikey and Jimmy Ballard are probably the two most successful decks I've put a heavier amount of work into. (Although that Banette/Blissey list did get Jimmy a Worlds invite).

Play wise though, I feel like I've gotten exponentially better over the past say 2-3 years. I used to just be flat out MEDIOCRE, not really top cutting events, but having respectable showings at tournaments. Now I've got a couple trophies and medals behind me to at least remind myself that I'm getting better.

What I'd really like to know is what the more successful players (who I see all the time) in my area think of me. NORTHEAST THAT MEANS YOU.

Would be great if someone with your experience could contribute to the descriptions so people could gauge themselves and have some guidance whenever work toward self-improvement.
 
a 10 would consider the benefits of a tech quagsire d line in rambolt, only to find out that the only energy you are able to draw with this tech in your deck are the 2 scramble energy you added. you then remove the tech in favor of better options, even though you know deep down that quagsire very well could have been the play.
 
Quagsire d, or Sudowoodo

Drew I'd like to help you get to higher than a six....perhaps over dinner? :)

I think Magnechu has a pretty good idea over what a rating system would look like, dunno if he's working on it.
 
Rogue, the problem is that you're combining deckbuilding styles and player skill. Some people never play archetypes. Others only play archetypes. There are some players who have proper decks that would, simply on a scale of 1-10, without the definitions, be a 2 or so. Where would you put someone who had a competitive deck, for example Ampharos/Manectric, knew about PokeGym, but had no interest in thinking up bizarre decks, and didn't play well at all?

Also, #5 is not average. I consider an average player to be... well, to tell the truth, I think you're a perfect example of what I'd consider average. I can't really explain any specifics, because of the point I made above, but generally someone who could make top cut in almost any Tier 1 tournament, but isn't that likely to.


It's not that important anyway. All the people who just want to think they're elite will do it no matter what, and anyone smart enough to understand the importance of accurate self-assessment probably wouldn't need or fit into your definitions.

JMHO.
 
Alright let's see. I think pretty much everything up through 8 is pretty accurate, and there doesn't seem to be much controversy around them. It's the 9-10 category that is being discussed mostly, well because it's where the best players lay in.

If I had to GUESS I would say there are only 20-30 10s in the world and about 50-60 9s. There's also lows and highs of each category but it's not even worth it to go into them. Bolt ranked himself a 9, I would call him a high 9 and myself a low 10. We're very similar in skill and deckbuilding, but I feel I'm just a litttleee better than you Joe ;)

Anyway, let's rip these apart:

9 -Boss Player You really feel like you're top tier now. People are starting to see your name on the matchup and are going "aw man... I got you this round :frown:" You're no longer an autowin for anyone; in fact, they feel like an Autoloss TO YOU!!
Pretty true. You are a top tier player now, one of the Top 100 or so. People should be afraid to play you, but most decent players (6-8) won't just fold to you or anything. You'll have to prove that you're a 9.

There's still a handfull of guys that you JUST CANNOT BEAT if you're life depended on it.
Whole-heartedly disagree. The difference between 9s and 10s is so minute, for the most part, that a 9 could beat a 10 on any given day, provided that the cards fall slightly in their favor. One example: T16 at Nationals last year, I played Jason (Ness) in Gardy mirror. Jason is obviously a better player than me. I would consider him a very high 10 with me a very low 10 back then, so he was almost a full point ahead of me. He starts with Holon's Castform. I play the match great and so does he, but that little thing was enough to push me over the top. Game 2 never finished because I played the matchup correctly.

So, you go into tourneys knowing you have a great chance of making top cut, but you don't really expect to win the whole thing. You're top cutting more than half of the time now!!!
Again, going to disagree. Going by logic, if there are only ~100 9s and 10s in the world, it's only logical that these 9s and 10s are going to win the majority of the tournaments-and there aren't many of them. 10s can't win every tournament, it's not going to happen. 9s win a LOT of tournament, maybe even moreso than 10s, especially the smaller ones. And you better be top cutting more than half the time. I would say top cutting 75% of the time is a pretty good benchmark to be considered a 9.

You feel like you can beat the champion players "if you get the right cards at the right time"... you're getting to be a pretty solid player.
Yes, a real solid player. Addressed the first part up there.

You FINALLY understand what a DECK FIX really is. You finally understand your PLAYSTYLE (your tendencies). You make lists better ... for YOU (you know longer play ANY list "as listed")
Correct. Your decks NEED to be yours. You can understand where you're playstyles are, but you'll never be a 10 if that's all you stick to. If you refuse to play Stage 2 decks because they never work for you, you didn't win a tournament last year did you? Know your strengths, but more importantly, know your weaknesses, and improve them.

You've even started building your own decks (from scratch) and some of them can win (but you find yourself falling back on proven "archetypes" when tourney time comes).
That's fine! Archertypes are archertypes for a reason: they're the best decks. As good old Alex Brosseau once said (god I hope it was him): the only person that consistently can win with rogue is Jimmy Ballard.

Still, you KNOW there's just something missing in your game that keeps you from being the PRO player that always wins. You may even try to join a team and swap ideas with a small pool of good players in an effort to surprise the circuit with an SD or an extremely refined Archetype (i.e. teching Mesprit in Gigas w/ Palkia and cyclone to get around MewTwo techs!).
A pro doesn't always win, but yes there is something missing in your game. Just fine tuning things, you just need to make 1 or 2 less minor misplays a game and you'll be there. Joining a team or at least finding solid players to test with is a MUST at this stage. If you don't have people of around equal skill to play with, you will never get better. Tossing ideas around between people is the best way to fine tune your lists as well as create new decks.

10 - PRO - If you show up, you're a threat. You either have a VERY refined version of an achetype or an insane Rogue that noone know how to defend against.
Starting off good, very true.

Regardless of the competition, you always top cut and make finals. When you don't, people are stunned "HE DIDN'T TOP CUT ??? WHO'D HE LOSE TO?? What were THEY running???!"
Only OTHER Pro's beat you (but they need a good setup to out speed you). Players see their starting hand, look at you and scoop because they know you've got them. You ALWAYS have a way to get to the cards you need.
Eh, I wish this were true lol. No one ALWAYS makes top cut/finals. Stuff happens. Sure people are surprised when you don't-but it's expected. And it's not only other pros that beat you, you'll lose to plenty of mediocre players due to bad hands or a bad matchup or whatever. No one EVER scoops to you lol. And a lot of the times it may seem like you have all the cards, but that's part of luck too. I wouldn't put that in the outline.

Your decks run so smoothly that people wonder if you've stacked the cards (you haven't, you just build in the draw you need to get what you want when you want it). You're very seldom "whiffing" searches.
You're usually SO set up, you're merely holding back cards that aren't even necessary to win.
Again I wish lol. A deck can only be so consistent. There is an optimal point of consistency where going beyond that wouldn't change much. Most 10s lists have that-optimal consistency. That doesn't mean that their decks won't crap out on them sometimes, because they will. It just happens less often than other player's.

Building on this, you know the reason why good players seem to have the most sour grapes? It's becasue 90% of the games you lose when you're a 9 or a 10 are because of bad hands or a god hand by the opponent of being T1ed or something lame like that.

HOW you win are the main are the only struggles you encounter (i.e. I can just lay this down and possibly win now, or I can play it safe and do this to win for sure in two turns)
The only thing that can beat you for sure is YOUR OWN DECK (TAILS on flips and really weird dry spells on draws that happen VERY rarely.
You pretty much know you have the match won the minute you see the matchup or the cards turn over to start the game.
That's actually very well put. 100% agree.

HOW DO YOU REACH LEVEL 10 - "PRO"?

Players that I LOSE to consistently KNOW what cards they need to have in their hand at the VERY BEGINNING of the game.
Ah, so true. One single deck can have so many different strategies depending on what it's playing against-and you need to know every single one. As soon as the basics are flipped over (possibly even before!) you should know what you're going for and what you're approach to winning is going to be. It may be very different from your core strategy. For example, Regigigas vs Machamp. You almost never want to go for the Regigigas, you want to Uxie swarm the poop out of them.

If you're going to be "Pro," you need to play a deck that makes sense to you.
This goes beyond understanding a card or understanding the decks strategy.
True, but not 100%. Addressed this earlier.

Your deck has to be an ongoing experiement that is constantly being worked on, improved upon, tweeked.

Your deck cannot be pure theory. You HAVE to play it and play it... then look for cards that can help you carry out the deck's strategy (that strategy MAY CHANGE!).
Correct. However, you can do a LOT in theory. I don't have anyone to play with in real life for 100 miles, so besides Apprentice I don't play. Therefore I do a LOT of playing games in my head. How they should play out, etc. To fix the finer details, though, you need to actually play the game.

You MUST KNOW (by memory!) these 4 things:

the decks strategy
your opponent's decks stragies (metagame - what everyone else is playing an how to get around it)
the cards in your own deck (every single one / how many of each)
WHY each card is in a deck (yours and your oppoenents)
So true. Knowing your deck is not enough, you have to know your opponent's just as well. Run as many different decks as you can to get a feel for them. When a top player plays a mediocre player, they can often run the opponent's deck better than they can without even seeing their hand lol.

And I can not stress ENOUGH the importance of knowing every single card in your deck. If you can't recite your entire list off, you're so done. It's something that I make my brothers do before every tournament lol.

Finally...
YOUR IDEAL SETUP...

You need to know YOUR PERFECT STARTING SEVEN CARDS.
What EXACTLY are you trying to get your bench to look like..

And...

Your entire deck needs to be built in a way to make that Ideal Setup happen within 2 turns if possible.
Hmm, not sure if I agree with this. Your ideal start varies a lot with what you're playing against. But yeah, you can have a general ideal set up I guess.

I've discovered a big difference between the Average player who loses with a "great list"
and a GREAT PLAYER that wins most of the time.

A great player isn't as concerned with what YOU have as he/she is with what's not set up yet.

One last tidbit. A PRO expects to get KO'd. It's not the end of the world. In fact, he/she has already planned ahead and is actually WAITING for you to KO because what's coming next is MORE powerful!
Yeah that's pretty standard I think. Even really good players can't expect crazy stuff though like playing vs a Kingdra and they law down Regice, drop 2 Water, Felicity drop 2 Water and lay down 4 Pluspowers and hit you for the 130 they need to KO you. :p


I actually think I said most of what I wanted to up there. If I think of anything else I'll be sure to edit it in. Hope that helps everyone!
 
I really agree with Magnechu on alot of what he said. However IMO to be a true Champion you have to be a Pro Deck builder and a Pro Player. I really think your levels really try to combine the two to much. People don't go OMG I have to play Player X he such a good deck builder. Its OMG I have to play Player X he is such a good player.
 
I dont think being a 10 deck-builder is necessary to be a 10 player. I think non-10 deck builders can still win stuff like nat/worlds by having a good team behind them. You dont need to build the deck to win with it. Didn't Martin win nats w raieggs after only being handed the deck a couple days before? (I could be wrong on my poke-history.) I do think you need to be a great player to win, though.
 
Building deck building skill is hard to compare. Last year when i was in seniors i was an autoloss for a 70 % of players, because i was using really constent lists of somethign good, like GG or Plox in later. Thesedays in Masters i'm nothing like an autoloss, there is so many other good players out there...
 
Mikey's post is good and I agree with Jay and Frankie -- There are plenty of great players who are not spectacular deckbuilders.
 
I think I'm somewhere between 8 and 9. I get to the top cut 60 to 65% of the times, but have never won anything (only a lots of second places). I have heard other players say "Oh, no, I will play against David.", but I feel that my decklists is unstable, although they sometimes are amazing.
 
This is a nice idea, but I don't think there are any "tiers." Some players are better than others, but in my opinion the best players know that they're good an don't need to compare themselves to others of their skill level. Anyway, it's not a "line" of ranks, it's more like a circle. Some players are just as good as others, but in different ways, like one player knows exactly how the game will go several turns in advance, but the other knows exactly how to make the game play into his hands. Of course there are extremely good players in this game (and some of them have posted on this thread) but if some mediocre person played against them at Nationals/Worlds/Whatever They'd say "Oh man, he/she's a good player, I'll probably lose. They don't say "Oh man, he/she's a 10, while I'm only a lower 8, I have no chance!" The advice on the first post is really good for people becoming better at this game, which is what I believe you were aiming for, but mostly on this thread people rank themselves a bit higher than they really are, which is detrimental to the overall goal. With no ranks, people might see where they are a bit lacking in pokemon skills, but wouldn't be tempted to rank themselves higher and disregard the advice for lower ranks.

Another example:
Tiers of decks are similar to these tiers of players. A very good player would know his metagame and choose a deck accordingly. He might say "Well, there are a lot of Regigigases and Machamps in my area, I need a deck that can beat both easily." And choose a deck. (Let's say Kingdra with Mesprits for the sake of this example.) He would not say "Kingdra is Tier 1, whie Machamp is only Tier 2.9, so I should beat it."

Tiers help nothing, as they are just a matter of opinion in a game where luck is a big feature.
 
ill put my self at a good 7 but i dont see the point of keeping track of this stuff i only care about is the points and having fun so
tw
 
Alright let's see. I think pretty much everything up through 8 is pretty accurate, and there doesn't seem to be much controversy around them. It's the 9-10 category that is being discussed mostly, well because it's where the best players lay in.

If I had to GUESS I would say there are only 20-30 10s in the world and about 50-60 9s. There's also lows and highs of each category but it's not even worth it to go into them. Bolt ranked himself a 9, I would call him a high 9 and myself a low 10. We're very similar in skill and deckbuilding, but I feel I'm just a litttleee better than you Joe ;)

Anyway, let's rip these apart:


Pretty true. You are a top tier player now, one of the Top 100 or so. People should be afraid to play you, but most decent players (6-8) won't just fold to you or anything. You'll have to prove that you're a 9.


Whole-heartedly disagree. The difference between 9s and 10s is so minute, for the most part, that a 9 could beat a 10 on any given day, provided that the cards fall slightly in their favor. One example: T16 at Nationals last year, I played Jason (Ness) in Gardy mirror. Jason is obviously a better player than me. I would consider him a very high 10 with me a very low 10 back then, so he was almost a full point ahead of me. He starts with Holon's Castform. I play the match great and so does he, but that little thing was enough to push me over the top. Game 2 never finished because I played the matchup correctly.


Again, going to disagree. Going by logic, if there are only ~100 9s and 10s in the world, it's only logical that these 9s and 10s are going to win the majority of the tournaments-and there aren't many of them. 10s can't win every tournament, it's not going to happen. 9s win a LOT of tournament, maybe even moreso than 10s, especially the smaller ones. And you better be top cutting more than half the time. I would say top cutting 75% of the time is a pretty good benchmark to be considered a 9.


Yes, a real solid player. Addressed the first part up there.


Correct. Your decks NEED to be yours. You can understand where you're playstyles are, but you'll never be a 10 if that's all you stick to. If you refuse to play Stage 2 decks because they never work for you, you didn't win a tournament last year did you? Know your strengths, but more importantly, know your weaknesses, and improve them.


That's fine! Archertypes are archertypes for a reason: they're the best decks. As good old Alex Brosseau once said (god I hope it was him): the only person that consistently can win with rogue is Jimmy Ballard.


A pro doesn't always win, but yes there is something missing in your game. Just fine tuning things, you just need to make 1 or 2 less minor misplays a game and you'll be there. Joining a team or at least finding solid players to test with is a MUST at this stage. If you don't have people of around equal skill to play with, you will never get better. Tossing ideas around between people is the best way to fine tune your lists as well as create new decks.


Starting off good, very true.


Eh, I wish this were true lol. No one ALWAYS makes top cut/finals. Stuff happens. Sure people are surprised when you don't-but it's expected. And it's not only other pros that beat you, you'll lose to plenty of mediocre players due to bad hands or a bad matchup or whatever. No one EVER scoops to you lol. And a lot of the times it may seem like you have all the cards, but that's part of luck too. I wouldn't put that in the outline.


Again I wish lol. A deck can only be so consistent. There is an optimal point of consistency where going beyond that wouldn't change much. Most 10s lists have that-optimal consistency. That doesn't mean that their decks won't crap out on them sometimes, because they will. It just happens less often than other player's.

Building on this, you know the reason why good players seem to have the most sour grapes? It's becasue 90% of the games you lose when you're a 9 or a 10 are because of bad hands or a god hand by the opponent of being T1ed or something lame like that.


That's actually very well put. 100% agree.


Ah, so true. One single deck can have so many different strategies depending on what it's playing against-and you need to know every single one. As soon as the basics are flipped over (possibly even before!) you should know what you're going for and what you're approach to winning is going to be. It may be very different from your core strategy. For example, Regigigas vs Machamp. You almost never want to go for the Regigigas, you want to Uxie swarm the poop out of them.


True, but not 100%. Addressed this earlier.


Correct. However, you can do a LOT in theory. I don't have anyone to play with in real life for 100 miles, so besides Apprentice I don't play. Therefore I do a LOT of playing games in my head. How they should play out, etc. To fix the finer details, though, you need to actually play the game.


So true. Knowing your deck is not enough, you have to know your opponent's just as well. Run as many different decks as you can to get a feel for them. When a top player plays a mediocre player, they can often run the opponent's deck better than they can without even seeing their hand lol.

And I can not stress ENOUGH the importance of knowing every single card in your deck. If you can't recite your entire list off, you're so done. It's something that I make my brothers do before every tournament lol.


Hmm, not sure if I agree with this. Your ideal start varies a lot with what you're playing against. But yeah, you can have a general ideal set up I guess.


Yeah that's pretty standard I think. Even really good players can't expect crazy stuff though like playing vs a Kingdra and they law down Regice, drop 2 Water, Felicity drop 2 Water and lay down 4 Pluspowers and hit you for the 130 they need to KO you. :p


I actually think I said most of what I wanted to up there. If I think of anything else I'll be sure to edit it in. Hope that helps everyone!


I appreciate your time there. Thank you very much.

THAT was the type of response that I hoped more top players would contribute rather than some VERY corny rhetoric and joking around.

I truly appreciate you being the "adult" in the thread along w/ Ryan; understanding the spirit in which this thread was posted and making an effort to help improve the descriptions.

Thanks again.
 
Started as a 8, now am 9-10 (depents)

However I do suffer from bad luck, from time to time even loosing to a 7 with the age not far from that number ;)
Most of the time that loss is because of deck outs and the fact I react better if an opponent gives me a good threat move.
 
NO ONE starts out as an 8. Everyone starts out as a 1, and can gain skill rapidly. It took me 4+ years to become what I consider to be a low 10.
 
I would put myself at a 7

I have a few titles under my belt, but run most events as opposed to playing in them.

It takes a LOT of dedication to hit the top tier of 8, 9 or 10 in this game.

Vince
 
NO ONE starts out as an 8. Everyone starts out as a 1, and can gain skill rapidly. It took me 4+ years to become what I consider to be a low 10.

You can imho, I feel I have had general good knowledge of card games with my Magic and WoW years of playing. Making pokemon only being an easy step to switch to that playing style.

IMHO pokemon isn't hard to learn at all and synergy searching isn't hard to find at all plus it's cheaper than most card games. Common cardgame sence and some calqulating gets you very far in this game.

My first ever official pokemon tournament was the same I got 4th at 2008.
 
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