Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community

[Porii Sames]

I play Beedrill G because I wanted to be loyal to it after playing it so long.

Donks are getting more common because Seeker and Jarm were released. I think that the whole quaduxie thing has popularized donks again. People in my area that play Gyara/Luxchomp are considering to play Vilegar after I started winning more. I think donks are a legit way to win, and while they might not be too hard, the deck is hard to build, and it is hard to pilot the deck later game.

---------- Post added 12/22/2010 at 01:44 AM ----------

In a practical sense, you're right. If you don't want to be donked you should be playing something ridiculously inconsistent that will lose you 90% of your other games but will win you the donk match. Any change minor enough to not hurt consistency will be meaningless to the donk match, but any change major enough to improve the donk match will slaughter consistency; this is a statistical fact and is not going to change.

So then you would say that these six or seven people are victims of the format, I guess? They are faced with an unfortunate choice: take the loss to donks and play a legitimate deck that SHOULD win them the rest of the tournament (assuming they miss the donk decks), or play something illegitimate but be able to win the unfun donk matchup.

That is what we're complaining about here! No one should have to make that choice! I said this a while back; if I mispredict the metagame and walk into a tournament full of Gyarados playing Machamp, I still have a shot at doing well. Not a great one mind you, but I still do have a shot, and at the very least I can still play several great, REALLY fun games of Pokemon! If I walk into a donk deck tournament, though, I have to play something stupid and inconsistent or face loads of quick, unfun, pointless games.

That is the bone I pick.

Edit: Raen, thank you so much for picking that out of his argument, I have been waiting for him to say it for a LONG time...

ARRGH!!!

Quit missing my points!

I am in no way saying that those players that "had their day ruined" should play some inconsistent Calltombchu deck that makes them lose their other games. If it were me, I would suck it up and say oh well and not even BOTHER to tech against it. I think it's a stupid idea to put Tombs in Machamp, or Calls in Gyarados. But if someone, like you in this case, is annoyed by donks, then put them in! It will certainly help the donk matchup, maybe not others, but we're discussing donks here.

And how are donk decks "illegitimate"?

 

[Kayle]

If it were me, I would suck it up and say oh well and not even BOTHER to tech against it.

Because it's stupid, right? Because it's going to screw up the rest of your deck.

You never said that getting donked ruins the player's day, which is kind of part of the problem. I did. When you don't actually have a chance to play through the game that ends up determining whether or not you cut (or continue through cut), you tend to feel pretty miserable about that tournament in general.

You can not be as ruined by messing up your deck, but the match still isn't fun, it's still a waste of time, and it's still a problem.

 

[Porii Sames]

YES WE HAVE AN AGREEMENT.

Teching all that stuff in is stupid. I wouldn't do it.

I don't agree about feeling miserable after a donk, but it isn't the best feeling in the world. For me, I don't really care how I lost, the point is I lost.

 

[Scipio]

So Porii, how would you feel if you made it to the finals of a tournament. You play 13 basics, 4 call energy. 4 of your basics have a coin flip to avoid attacks from your opponent. Both game 1 and 3 you start with said basic. Both these games you miss the flip. Both these games your opponent goes Machop-Candy-Machamp-Energy-Game.

Would you not feel ever so slightly miffled and robbed?

 

[Porii Sames]

No. I got bad luck. You can't tech against bad luck. You john about it a bit and then forget it.

 

[NoPoke]

So you are ok with donks? Try the "pay to play" experience: before each round begins both players pay $2 to the Organiser.

 

[Scipio]

Or pay $5 to even join the tournament to begin with.
Porii, its quite obvious that you havent been screwed out of top cuts/tournament wins before. I doubt you really know what its like to be on the recieving end of them, judging by your posts.

 

[jeffrey123]

It's because he's only top cut once, and in seniors. Beedril G wont win one game in masters.

 

[eriknance]

Let's try and be nice everyone. Porii probably hasn't had that experience of making it to the top cut in an important tournament to only have his dreams crushed because he got donked (or flipped a bunch of tails, or faced some wacky autoloss that shouldn't exist in the metagame). When it comes down to important prizes, the stakes are high. In the past, getting donked wasn't as prevalent; today, it's super easy to be donked out of the top cut. I also think Porii has a bit of a bias towards his favorite Pokemon AND deck, the Beedrill G donk deck.

That said, I've had some bad luck in top cuts at important tournaments. It stings. All I can say is that I'm thankful I didn't actually get donked out of those important situations. If so, I probably wouldn't even be playing today. My idea of donks is that they're frustrating, unfair, unhealthy, and totally not fun. It's the reason I gave a look of disgust when I donked Con Lee in the top 2 at Nats. I nearly asked if we could have it not count. When a donk happens in playtesting, it's just kind funny; we both say "oh well" and move on. In tournaments where there are real prizes to be won (not to mention respect in the Pokemon TCG community), being donked produces one of the worst feelings ever...

---------- Post added 12/22/2010 at 08:40 AM ----------

Also, one thing I think Porii is right about when it comes to donk decks is the level of skill required to build a successful list. Porii argues that there's a great deal of thinking and work that goes on behind the construction of that deck list, and I think he's right. However, I also disagree with Porii's assessment of the skill required to play those decks. I had a friend who, in his first tournament playing the Pokemon TCG ever, did better than nearly everyone in our group after getting used to a Shuppet donk deck. He made misplays all over the place, but still managed to squeeze off a few first or second turn wins. Almost any deck that utilizes a single attack (or maybe two) falls into this category of decks that require little skill to operate. My only exception to this is post-Triumphant Gyarados, but only because it plays so many different Trainers (and Pokemo) for different purposes that there are lots of chances for misplays to occur. Uxie/Shuppet donk, on the other hand, just plays Trainers to draw cards, and it focuses on that first turn hit. Afterwards, it still struggles very little to "Psychic Restore" or "Fade Away." It just becomes a game of simple math and drawing ability in order to land that same attack over and over again. I'm pretty set on this argument, so much that I'll say Steelix wasn't a hard deck to play (and required little skill). The skill for that deck, however, was in building the thing. Additionally, facing fire techs really weeds out the mediocre players. Sorry for the wall of text... time for work...

 

[poinko]

Let's try and be nice everyone. Porii probably hasn't had that experience of making it to the top cut in an important tournament to only have his dreams crushed because he got donked (or flipped a bunch of tails, or faced some wacky autoloss that shouldn't exist in the metagame). When it comes down to important prizes, the stakes are high. In the past, getting donked wasn't as prevalent; today, it's super easy to be donked out of the top cut. I also think Porii has a bit of a bias towards his favorite Pokemon AND deck, the Beedrill G donk deck.

Getting donked actually WAS more prevalent than it is today. As I've pointed out before, Haymakers existed for the donk. A lot of them ran with Erika's Jigglypuff just for the ability to attack for 80 damage on turn 1. Donking exists because of the very nature of the setup of the game. I daresay even PCL knew it was going to be a part of the game when they created it. The only way to stamp out donking is to change the entire setup of the game.

That said, I've had some bad luck in top cuts at important tournaments. It stings. All I can say is that I'm thankful I didn't actually get donked out of those important situations. If so, I probably wouldn't even be playing today. My idea of donks is that they're frustrating, unfair, unhealthy, and totally not fun. It's the reason I gave a look of disgust when I donked Con Lee in the top 2 at Nats. I nearly asked if we could have it not count. When a donk happens in playtesting, it's just kind funny; we both say "oh well" and move on. In tournaments where there are real prizes to be won (not to mention respect in the Pokemon TCG community), being donked produces one of the worst feelings ever...

You nearly asked? Why didn't you actually ask? Or given that you hate donking so much, how about simply not attacking until he gets another basic? If he had donked you would that have made you ask to have that game not count? The power was entirely in your hands but you chose to donk him out of top cut for respect and prizes. If you truly hate an aspect of the game and wish to see it truly stamped out for good, set an example. Support it the whole way, not just when it's convenient for you.

 

[Yoshi-]

So he is supposed to have a disadvantage because someone on japan isnt capable of not printing cards that make this happen?
A player will do whatever he needs to win, its thec reators that are at fault for even creating something like this.

And no matter what, passing a chance to dont against sablelock...

 

[eriknance]

Getting donked actually WAS more prevalent than it is today. As I've pointed out before, Haymakers existed for the donk. A lot of them ran with Erika's Jigglypuff just for the ability to attack for 80 damage on turn 1. Donking exists because of the very nature of the setup of the game. I daresay even PCL knew it was going to be a part of the game when they created it. The only way to stamp out donking is to change the entire setup of the game.

Sorry for being unclear. I was referring to when I first started playing, which was Ruby/Sapphire on. Turn 2 decks were there, but they operated off of trying to rush the win. Today there are decks that aren't even donk decks that land first turn donks. It feels a little out of hand to me.

You nearly asked? Why didn't you actually ask? Or given that you hate donking so much, how about simply not attacking until he gets another basic? If he had donked you would that have made you ask to have that game not count? The power was entirely in your hands but you chose to donk him out of top cut for respect and prizes. If you truly hate an aspect of the game and wish to see it truly stamped out for good, set an example. Support it the whole way, not just when it's convenient for you.

This nearly feels like an attack; don't know what I did to make you mad. But in any event, I'll answer your flood of questions.

Had Con donked me, I would have never asked for that game to not count, that's just silly. In the past, when the scholarship wasn't so important, I've let people take back plays that cost me. I did it out of respect for the game state and the other player. At Nats, I desperately needed the scholarship. I barely even got to Nats because of financial hardship. I'm trying to go back to college so that I can pull myself out of the hole that the recession threw me and my family in. As it is, I can't make the two extra semesters I need to get a second BA in Psychology. The 1st place win at Nats would have afforded me those two semesters. So I apologize for not being some great example for the distaste people have about an aspect of the Pokemanz TCG. I was just thinking about my family and future first. :nonono:

 

[SLOW DECK]

October 18,2008. I posted a deck list on Old Pokes called. "UR Donk.dec; Broke the Format" Basically it Uxie, Unown R, Trainer Turn one Decking Engine that was a thought experiment on speed. The deck became Uxie Donk. The version 1.0 was deck yourself, and fight with looping uxies, 4 plus powers, and Mr Mime. The deck consitently got better and better cards complemented the engine. I played the deck at as a rogue novelty at some cities. Won 3 cities that year playing Regigigas.

UR Double Donk- W/SP released, Crobat's and Poketurns was the obvious most relavent addition to the deck, it allowed double donks, and an occassional triple donk. I called this Double Donk. But the core strategy was yeah, some double donks, but it was a fast attack and hide behind Mr Mime deck. I believe the majority of the games were still interactive. There was a real game going on most of the time. I played it at some States as a rogue entry, but I had to miss the SP builds for any chance. Played it at Nats 09 for fun went 3-5, had great time because opponents had to make a great comeback to earn their victories. Last season I played Flygon/Nidoqueen most of the year, played uxie only a few cities and battle roads.

Quadro Uxie Donk- Is what I call the latest build, the deck becomes silly. Junk Arms and Seeker. Anyone who says "just run call energy", don't quite get what I would be able to do to them. Consistently pre-attack drop 120-140 damage, strategically play seeker, and cylone energy, then finish with 80 damage to the active and Uxie loop.. IE a carpet bomb a very legitimate, and should be "undonkable" starting board of 4 pokemon. Yes I only play 1 energy, 1 seeker, and DECK MYSELF every time. (I see many clumsy lists out there). I do take pride in my ability to probably get all the pokemon off a board better than most "new" players could. A clumsy list could get 3 or 4 every once in a while. More seasoned Uxie players know that to do it consistently does take skill to squeeze all the damage out of the deck, play the cyclone and seeker at the right time, .......

Regardless, of all that. The deck is bad for the game. I basically wipe out any non SP build that doesnt' start with trainer lock. SP decks that get 5 pokemon on the board can ussually survive the first turn carnage. (BTW folks, SP is also bad for the game, why dont' all the SP players go one place, and the non SP players go somewhere else). This deck is far from invinceable, but NONE OF THE GAMES ARE INTERACTIVE BATTLE. That being said, I ran Uxie donk once this year, Quadrouple Donked Ness and a few others, lost to Trainer Locks.

Now, all of these holier than thou folks who win tournaments playing some 3 card different from the next guy's SP Builds. (Jay H, you used to play rogue) Do you feel your deck building skills is something you should take pride in. I think playing SP is like being a fan of the New York Yankees in terms of deck choice. FRONT RUNNER. Our family has actually been very BORED with the format. SP is still overpowered as every way. Pokemon has released several set's since the release of the SP, wouldn't it be nice to play something other than SP, Vilegar, and Gyrados?

Anyone who running SP thinking they are actually good at pokemon, I will quote chad ochocinco.... "Child Please" (For example Erik above has won with Steelix, high respect because of consistent rogue victories)

I am ranting, but I do think Quadro Uxie and Donk wins are bad for Pokemon Organized Play and Tournaments.

Here is the cheap drug factor analogy. I played in a cities this weekend, I swore off Quad Uxie, my Vile-gar deck was claimed by Quinn. We had only one deck close to playable state, and that was a Dialga Chomp, I have never played in a tournament with astraigh SP build, but probably believe that Dialga Chomp is a harder deck to play, so I played it. Was looking forward to maybe get into some SP versus SP matches..... All I can think though after I the coin flip, my opponent flips their pokemon, and we start the game is. "I would have gotten them all, if I was playing uxie."........................... Bad Drug........ going through rehab.......

 

[Politoed666]

Now, all of these holier than thou folks who win tournaments playing some 3 card different from the next guy's SP Builds. (Jay H, you used to play rogue) Do you feel your deck building skills is something you should take pride in. I think playing SP is like being a fan of the New York Yankees in terms of deck choice. FRONT RUNNER. Our family has actually been very BORED with the format. SP is still overpowered as every way. Pokemon has released several set's since the release of the SP, wouldn't it be nice to play something other than SP, Vilegar, and Gyrados?

Anyone who running SP thinking they are actually good at pokemon, I will quote chad ochocinco.... "Child Please" (For example Erik above has won with Steelix, high respect in rogue victories)

Says the man playing DialgaChomp. ;]

But yeah, you're pretty much right. The difference between your Uxie donk and, oh, a Machamp deck lucksacking a KO on the first turn and the opponent having no bench is a large one. Uxie donk takes skill to play, and the opponent who got a full bench T1 and still got donked can't blame it on bad luck. The problem with donks is that they throw around luck too much... too many donk losses are due to bad/good luck on one player or the other's part, and not skill. Uxie donk attempts to donk, and it takes skill to do so.

 

[NoPoke]

Donk decks are not all about luck. It is not luck when a deck does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Donk deck games are essentially solitaire games. It doesn't matter who the opponent is or what the relative skill is between the two players..

 

[ShadowGuard]

Donk deck games are essentially solitaire games. It doesn't matter who the opponent is or what the relative skill is between the two players..

And that's what the Pokémon TCG is not supposed to be.

So why on earth play donk decks? It completely relies on luck and has so many autoloss situations (2 Spiritombs, Solo Spiritomb, T1 Deafen etc). A good player would not choose a deck like this unless he's really bored.

And about new players who think they can nullify the advantage of good players by running such a deck? Well, I guess they should better play an autopilot deck, like Gyarados. It's easy to play but unlike Uxie donk, it's tier 1 and aims for an actual Pokémon game. Playing the game > game denial.

 

[SLOW DECK]

Donk decks are not all about luck. It is not luck when a deck does exactly what it is supposed to do. Donk deck games are essentially solitaire games. It doesn't matter who the opponent is or what the relative skill is between the two players..

The absolute consistency of the multi-donk capability of my build, in my hands, make the only Luck involved in the game is my "pairing" and the coin flip. Solitaire itself is actually a hard game to win, uxie donk, first turn, really isn't that hard to get to the bottom of your deck. I think enough players can play their uxie decks to the same level, so the Fortuitous luck aspect of a random donk isn't there anymore.

 

[Yoshi-]

But the coin flip/pairing is lucky enough right?

And btw, the same arguments that everyone has against donks are the reason I hate sps, often games will be auto pilot and over before they start, get a bad hand and you wont see the end of it, often there hardly is a way to stop sp if your opening hand is bad. And this is why the thing Im most worried about against sp is if Ill even have a chance to play, my opening hand, if Ill be lucky or not.

 

[Jaeger]

Now, all of these holier than thou folks who win tournaments playing some 3 card different from the next guy's SP Builds. (Jay H, you used to play rogue) Do you feel your deck building skills is something you should take pride in. I think playing SP is like being a fan of the New York Yankees in terms of deck choice. FRONT RUNNER. Our family has actually been very BORED with the format. SP is still overpowered as every way. Pokemon has released several set's since the release of the SP, wouldn't it be nice to play something other than SP, Vilegar, and Gyrados?

I don't know if that question was directed at me or in general but I'll go ahead with it anyways. I love doing well with rogue decks and yes I take alot of pride in it as well. My brother and I worked all season on that Scizor Ex deck so I can't even begin to say how proud I was to walk out of our first Nats with a 2nd and a Top 8 finish. Although I'm sure you know the feeling doing the same with the Rayquaza deck. Sadly Rob I'll agree, I enjoy this format but it is somewhat stale. I love deep stratigic games but sadly thats something Gyarados and Vilegar don't offer. And every rou ge based deck that i've come up with gets stomped by one of the above 3.

 

[mfgoodsale]

I wound up playing instead of judging at a CC here so the Masters could have 5+T4 instead of 4+T4. I didn't have a deck, so somebody handed me their Shuppet donk deck and I used that. I didn't even look at what was in the deck prior to starting. Now, to be fair, I know how to play. It's not like I'm a total noob - I just judge instead of play in tournaments now.

Round 1 v Cursegar - T4 win (to be fair, he got nothing other than 2 'tombs and deaddrew, so this wasn't really a "donk.") 1-0. Turns played: 4
Round 2 v Gyarados - We played 4 times. I won the first 3 on the first turn - Unown Q donk of a karp, Uxie donk of an Uxie, and Uxie+Crobat donk of a carp. 4-1. Turns played in wins: 7
Round 3 v Gyarados - He Sablestarts with a benched 'karp. Impersonate Collectors for 3 basics. I Warp Point, Seeker, Uxie+PlusPower donk. 5-1. Turns played: 8
Round 4 v Machamp/Donphan - He wins the toss, starts with Uxie. I T1 donk his lone Uxie with my Uxie and PlusPowers/Belt. 6-1. Turns played: 9
Round 5 v Uxie Donk - He wins the toss, starts with Uxie. See Round 4 but add in Crobat Gs. 7-1. Turns played: 10

To be fair, I got demolished in the T4, by the guy I donked in Round 3. The point is, I took a deck I had never seen, didn't know the contents of other than the fact it was a straight up donk deck, and won 7 games in 10 turns. Since only 5 of the games counted, my rating after the Swiss rounds (start at 1600) was 1640.04.


You did all of Canada a favor. You taught them they better make decks that are more donk proof Your story is a wake up call - Canadian players better start building better, not so easily donked, decks. I mean, its embarrasing how well you did with that deck - wake up Canada - donky days are here