Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community

[Kezzup]

You did all of Canada a favor. You taught them they better make decks that are more donk proof Your story is a wake up call - Canadian players better start building better, not so easily donked, decks. I mean, its embarrasing how well you did with that deck - wake up Canada - donky days are here

So, tell me, HOW do you make a deck less donkable without completely destroying consistency? Also, I think you're calling Canadians bad players, though I could be wrong.

 

[mfgoodsale]

Anhyone who plays Uxie Donk is not doing it to win - they are doing it to be disruptive. There is no fuin playing against an uxie donk. If you trainer lock them they quit immediately. Otherwise, You get to watch them play by themselves for 10 minutes, and then watch them be incredibly impressed at their own skills. Its rather selfish to play the deck. With other decks, both people get to have a good time playing, with Uxie donk only one person ever gets to play the game. ANy other donk deck still allows both people to play a fun game if they avoid the donk.

 

[Shino Bug Master]

I have to bring up a sentiment that was highlight early in that I don't mind getting donked by a donk based deck liek Uxie or SHuppet if I have a passable field for my deck (if i flip over Unown Q, well..that's just suck xD). But its when you flip over your 60 HP Spiritomb, preventing trainers from being played and decreasing the chance of the donk and get turn 1 Ambipom + 2 crobat gs to the bench, by a bad LuxChomp list.

Is LuxChomp designed to get T1 Ambipom and start wrecking havoc? No. Really, Ambipom isn't even included for that purpose. he's a Cheap Garchomp C counter who can take out unsuspecting Dragonite FBs if you bright look them up, and has the ability to move away important energy to something you can either snipe/Bright Look away or on something like Azelf who'll be stuck with it. Its attacks even have synergy for that! It serves those functions well, better than any other avaiable card to do the same. Its not supposed to donk. The attack even has the enrgy clause which allows any Pokemon to escape with 1/3rd its power if they have an energy making it easy to stop...if you gett he chance to.

Now if you whiff on energy, and then get donked for it, that's one thing. Decks today play much lower energy count in general than they once did (not like Base Set once did, just a while back) and your loss can be attributed to your decks underpreformance. But when you miss a coin flip and go second just to see your opponent play 4 total cards and win against a card designed to slow the opponent down, that's the kind of donk that leaves grapes sour. Its not that it can't be prevented, its that it isn't supposed to happen, based on the cards inclusion of the deck. Cards like Hopip and Unown Q and Magikarp come with that sort of thing tied to them, you know the risk of running these low HP basics and its your choice to deal with the possible outcome. But cards like Dragonite FB, Garchomp C, Machop, Smeargle and Azelf? Ambipom and Crobat with a DCE can endgame all of those cards without the same kind of dedication tot he deck Shuppet and Uxierush require to do the same. There's no pentaly to it, like when players used Riolu DP to donk Castform, in that you had to play a Lucario based deck and even then could only win if you got a coinflip.

TO summate all the rambling i look at it like this: If you play against Shuppet and you get donked, that's one deck preforming correctly. If you start with Unown Q, or whiff energy against Ambipom, that's one deck underpreforming. If you flip over and your opponent utilizes a card with purpose in the deck besides donking vs a Pokemon of yours with relatively high HP (50-60+ range) and you don't get a turn to react, that's the kind of donk that so many players recoutn tails of with despair. Its not that it isn't fair, its that it isn't a projectable occurance. If Ambipom for some reason or another could NEVER revenge kill a Garchomp C or Dragonite FB and could only surve to donk, would people still play it? Would those that do have greater succes than those who don't? Would you?

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Not so much. It can slow down both players enough so that he can Drush stuff quickly once he gets out of trainer lock.

Stop throwing this trash out there. No decent player plays tomb in SP.

 

[SLOW DECK]

(Jay you are one of my favorite players, so don't think you are on my bad side If I could collect pokemon trading cards with actualy players on them.... Ness, Pooka, and Jaeger (Jay H) would be the "baseball" cards that I would want.... any ways.... disregarding the player crush on those guys..... The format is stale at the moment with the SP being the still dominating, 2 years after it was released, "are you serious/child please". The rogue builds that do sneak through for a win.... folks would admit, they sneaked in. )

Kezzup - Run SP or vile-gar, Run 17+ basic lists, Add Pokemon to your list, Unown R's is a good way to get "extra" pokes into a list, but this suggestion is only a partial solution. Ultimately the Donk's are occurring with too much frequency, thus elminating REAL GAMES.

I tell people I love pokemon because it is a combination of Poker and Chess. Now it risk becoming a game of Slot machines. Pull the lever, see what comes up to see if you won.

 

[Scipio]

You know its possible for Uxie donk to win if you only have 1 Spiritomb ahead right? Cuz theres this little card called Cyclone Energy that can rid them of that.
The only things that autoloss Uxie assuming Uxie goes second:
T1 Gastly Pitch-Dark (And really, thats risky with Sableye running the joint
T1 2 Spiritombs
Mespirit Drops
T1 2+ Power Sprays (Ive been able to survive a solo power spray)
T1 5 pokes in play

That MAY seem like an easy thing, right? However, getting 2 Spiritombs is not always the easiest thing to do. Only 1 deck plays Gastly and they rather not start with just him out of Sableye fear. Not many deck plays multiple Mespirit so getting them T1 is hard. 2 Power Sprays AND 3 SP's on the field? Good luck. 5 pokes? Its possible, but Uxie can still destroy 3 pokes and take a legit 20 minutes to do so. Good luck fighting back from THAT.

Now I ain't saying Uxie Always Wins, I'm just saying that these supposed autolosses are not as common as one would want you to believe.

Yet Uxie is not the only problem. There's still stupid junk like Machamp, Donphan, Jumpluff and Kingdra floating around. That's why donks are an issue - they're too easy to pull ever since LA hit.

The point of those who hate donks?

IT HAS NEVER BEEN THIS EASY TO DONK SINCE BASE SET

Go ahead. Try and prove me wrong. Yes, Haymaker could donk but as much as it could, it was more a fast attack deck that GIVEN THE RIGHT TYPEMATCHING could donk.

Now you got Machamp, who donks and then flips coins. Jumpluff who donks and then swarms. Kingdra who donks and then swarms. Donphan who donks and then tanks. They are decks designed to go for the T1 donk and then keep clearing field. That all isn't accounting even for Uxie...

Oh and I didn't mean to insult Porii btw. It just seems to me that Porii has never truly been screwed over by a donk by like losing out on top cut due to a donk in a matchup he should win (Gyarados vs Macheap anyone?) or in the finals of a tournament. Let him experience that a few times and then come back.

 

[mfgoodsale]

So, tell me, HOW do you make a deck less donkable without completely destroying consistency? Also, I think you're calling Canadians bad players, though I could be wrong.

I don't think there si a difference between Canadians and Americans, but I may joke about it. DO you guys up there think you are different form us? Mexico is a little different, but Canada and the US might as well be the same country - and when Obama gets us the free healthcare we will be exactly the saem.

Would adding some corbats destroy consistancy? How about a few extra uxies. Or instad of a 1-1 or 1-1-1 I make it 2-1 or 2-1-1. In some ways, this makes it more consistant, as you start out with a pokemon and an Uxie, instead of just an uxie.
Hereis my question to you, and anyone else, if you have unown Q and Unie in your hand to start, are you goign to risk leaving the unownq out there alone or start with two pokemon? I did it differenlty depending on the player - when I though Iwas better I put both down, and when I played against someone bettter I figured I needed a little luck so I just went with unown 1 to start.

 

[Beltiger]

I may not be able to get a job teaching but at least college taught me something

Some of us who had been teaching can't find a job teaching right now. Keep trying, it has to get better.

As for donks, as a teacher of history I can unequivocally tell you that donking is a part of life:

David and Goliath
Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson
Robert E. Lee vs the Army of the Potomac
Truman and Dewey

The list throughout history is immense of those who "Donked" their way to greatness or at least 15 minutes of fame.

My thoughts on Donks are this: Donking is a part of the game. You can either be aware of it and take advantage of it; be aware of it and defend against it; or complain about it and constantly be defeated by it. No matter what the ruling, even the completion of your turn one mentioned above, someone will find a way to exploit it. After all, humans who want to get ahead always look for and find ways that are not always obvious to others - or else the big, predatory animals would be ruling the planet instead of us puny homosapiens!

:biggrin:

 

[Porii Sames]

Anhyone who plays Uxie Donk is not doing it to win - they are doing it to be disruptive. There is no fuin playing against an uxie donk. If you trainer lock them they quit immediately. Otherwise, You get to watch them play by themselves for 10 minutes, and then watch them be incredibly impressed at their own skills. Its rather selfish to play the deck. With other decks, both people get to have a good time playing, with Uxie donk only one person ever gets to play the game. ANy other donk deck still allows both people to play a fun game if they avoid the donk.

I kinda sped through the thread a bit, but I agre with this.

My Beedrill doesn't have the engine that Uxie does. It has bits and pieces of it, but not the whole thing. That's why I run Cyrus, Collector, Seeker, Palmer's, 4 energies, etc. Because I actually want to have a chance late game. Adding in Dunsparce helped that.

---------- Post added 12/22/2010 at 12:07 PM ----------

Let's try and be nice everyone. Porii probably hasn't had that experience of making it to the top cut in an important tournament to only have his dreams crushed because he got donked (or flipped a bunch of tails, or faced some wacky autoloss that shouldn't exist in the metagame). When it comes down to important prizes, the stakes are high. In the past, getting donked wasn't as prevalent; today, it's super easy to be donked out of the top cut. I also think Porii has a bit of a bias towards his favorite Pokemon AND deck, the Beedrill G donk deck.

I admit honorably that I have never been donked in top cut before. I have gotten seriously bad luck (having Dunsparce prized, flipping 6 tails, flipping 4 tails, Uxie prized, etc.)

I am a bit biased here because I do play a donk deck. But, judging by my record, I think you can see that it's not that threatening. Plus, donkdecks in general have quite a few unfortunate autolosses.

---------- Post added 12/22/2010 at 12:10 PM ----------

Stop throwing this trash out there. No decent player plays tomb in SP.

Nah, he only won 3 CCs this season (and I believe gotten an Invite or two). Besides, if he didn't play tomb, and he started with 2 Pokes, then there would sure be a whole lot of nothing that he could do.

 

[poinko]

This nearly feels like an attack; don't know what I did to make you mad. But in any event, I'll answer your flood of questions.

I can assure you it's not an attack; it's just a flaw in your logic thread. I'm trying to figure out why you are so adamantly against donks, but when you're in top 2 and had the chance to donk your opponent, it seems to me that you didn't even think twice about it. I understand you really wanted to win; that's the goal of everyone who plays a game a Pokemon, but you can't declare that donks are "frustrating, unfair, unhealthy, and totally not fun", and then use one to grab a win in top cut. It's hypocritical and detrimental to the whole basis of your argument.

I'm sure that if enough people complain loudly enough about it, POP will do as much as they can to step in and curb donks, but their power can only go so far. I think after the rules change over to the new BW rules, the number of donks will drop off. Or increase. You know, whichever. No matter what though, donks and decks you hate are still going to be around, and it's going to take a better explanation than 'This deck isn't any fun for me to play against, so it should be banned!'

 

[nnaann]

I can assure you it's not an attack; it's just a flaw in your logic thread. I'm trying to figure out why you are so adamantly against donks, but when you're in top 2 and had the chance to donk your opponent, it seems to me that you didn't even think twice about it. I understand you really wanted to win; that's the goal of everyone who plays a game a Pokemon, but you can't declare that donks are "frustrating, unfair, unhealthy, and totally not fun", and then use one to grab a win in top cut. It's hypocritical and detrimental to the whole basis of your argument.

I'm sure that if enough people complain loudly enough about it, POP will do as much as they can to step in and curb donks, but their power can only go so far. I think after the rules change over to the new BW rules, the number of donks will drop off. Or increase. You know, whichever. No matter what though, donks and decks you hate are still going to be around, and it's going to take a better explanation than 'This deck isn't any fun for me to play against, so it should be banned!'

That's pretty unfair. Erik obviously doesn't like donking, but when it's a choice between that and thousands of dollars in prizes, everyone would take the same route. No one likes having a job, but they do it when there's financial gain for it. It's a similar situation with this.

Most people don't like donking, but only do it because the prizes/ranking points are more important to them.

 

[poinko]

IT HAS NEVER BEEN THIS EASY TO DONK SINCE BASE SET

Go ahead. Try and prove me wrong. Yes, Haymaker could donk but as much as it could, it was more a fast attack deck that GIVEN THE RIGHT TYPEMATCHING could donk.

The reason for that is everyone was running 70 HP and 60 HP basics and the only way to donk was if your opponent was weak. The only way you can donk first turn with Hitmonchan is if your opponent only had a Jigglypuff or Electabuzz, as you've pointed out. In base set, low-cost attacks did low amounts of damage. Scyther doing 30 for :colorless::colorless::colorless: was fast and amazing and a reliable heavy hitter. Compared to stuff now like Garchomp C Lv X which does 80 to anything for the same cost. Much like it is now, Garchomp would be in every Haymaker deck, and it would only be better because Energy Charge would still be legal.

That's pretty unfair. Erik obviously doesn't like donking, but when it's a choice between that and thousands of dollars in prizes, everyone would take the same route. No one likes having a job, but they do it when there's financial gain for it. It's a similar situation with this.

Most people don't like donking, but only do it because the prizes/ranking points are more important to them.

I don't think it's unfair at all. I can appreciate wanting to win, and I can appreciate the situation he was in. I don't blame him at all for doing it, and if I were in his place, I would have done it too. The difference is, you can't call out donking as being bad for the game while you knock people out of top 2 with it because then, you're only a participant in the downfall of the game.

 

[Yoshi-]

It is bad but if I have the chance to do it I will do it, its not my fault this is possible, players will do whatever they can to win if its within the rules, if you expect anything else...

It IS bad for the game, Im saying this since sf was released and I never really donked anyone but if I donk someone with a deck taht the flawed card design made me play Ill take it because everyone else will too

 

[Ice'Cold]

I like the post about how most people would surely face an "autoloss" deck over a donk, the big difference being, you get a chance to play the game, have fun, and with a little luck, win.

A few years ago at nationals, empoleon became a very popular choice, to the point that many people decided against playing infernape because of it. I had been playing infernape for a long time, and felt really comfortable with the deck, so I decided to use it anyways, I tested the matchup again and again, and had my game plan set. I ended up facing 4 empoleon decks in swiss, each of the players thinking I was a pushover the minute they saw a chimchar. I ended up beating 3 out of 4 empoleon decks, much to their surprise. The match I lost (by one prize) was to Jimmy Ballard's empoleon, and after the game he told me I had really given him a run for his money, and that was the best match I had ever played against him. Even though I lost that match, I felt really good about it, a chance I would not have gotten had the game simply been a "donk" win.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I don't think it's unfair at all. I can appreciate wanting to win, and I can appreciate the situation he was in. I don't blame him at all for doing it, and if I were in his place, I would have done it too. The difference is, you can't call out donking as being bad for the game while you knock people out of top 2 with it because then, you're only a participant in the downfall of the game.

There is a huge difference in getting a donk with a deck NOT designed to donk and playing a deck based on getting a donk.

It simply a bad experience to go to a tournament and several games getting 1 turn and loose.
With the cards available in this format, I refuse to call this game: a game of skill.

 

[eriknance]

I can assure you it's not an attack; it's just a flaw in your logic thread. I'm trying to figure out why you are so adamantly against donks, but when you're in top 2 and had the chance to donk your opponent, it seems to me that you didn't even think twice about it. I understand you really wanted to win; that's the goal of everyone who plays a game a Pokemon, but you can't declare that donks are "frustrating, unfair, unhealthy, and totally not fun", and then use one to grab a win in top cut. It's hypocritical and detrimental to the whole basis of your argument.

Poinko, I’m just going to ask you right quick to consider me as a human being and fellow player of this game. I don’t think many people – even if they are adamantly against donks – would give up the chance to win thousands more in prize money to instead make some moral stand against donks. What would it accomplish? No Japanese card maker is going to see it and go, “Wow, I really applaud that guy, and I’ll never print another ‘donk’ card again.” The story might be passed around about the decisive stance that was made against donks, but most people would just criticize that person anyway (“Real players do whatever it takes to win, I don’t understand why he just passed when he could have won the game on turn 1… what an idiot”). In reality, it wouldn’t change anything other than the payout for that player.

I recognize donks as a part of this game, but I still think they’re unhealthy, frustrating, etc. As a result, you learn to play with the donk potential. It’s like fouls in soccer: many players recognize how unhealthy it is to have players tumbling around on the field with the slightest kick to the shin, but it’s an accepted part of the game. When a soccer player gets knocked around a bit, you can bet they’re going to take a tumble. To me at least, it looks like a great portion of the Pokemon TCG community runs with a similar idea. After all, when’s the last time you saw someone give up that first turn win because they wanted to take a moral stand against donks? Or have you ever seen anyone do this?

My whole point, however, is that I want to see this game be as fun, skillful, and healthy as possible while minimizing that lack factor that nobody can control (I’m talking about those first turn donks where the opponent didn’t even get to play a trainer). If my voice here on the Pokegym is heard and convinces someone somewhere to hold back on those B&W rule changes that would make first turn donks even more of a threat, I’m going to speak up!

You can call me a hypocrite all you want, but I don’t feel particularly torn that I don’t like donks and yet accepted a win based off of one for mine and my family’s best interest (turns out I didn’t win Nationals after all anyway). I play with the cards and format I’m given, and so far it looks like the card creators have enjoyed giving us donk cards with game rules that don’t help avoid the donk. Along that same line, plenty of people (myself included) have stated their dissatisfaction with SP decks, yet they still play them. Oh, and on that note… since the beginning of CC’s I’ve vowed to never play an SP deck again, so I’m enjoying a fairly pitiful track record so far this season and – based on the questionable K-rating structure they have going this year – have pretty much shot myself in the foot when it comes to getting that rating invitation to Worlds.

 

[Porii Sames]

Erik, I think what he is debating you about is the fact that you said "I ALMOST would have...", You either let it count, or don't let it count. There is no almost.

 

[Raen]

Erik, I think what he is debating you about is the fact that you said "I ALMOST would have...", You either let it count, or don't let it count. There is no almost.

Now we're being just silly. He said that to MAKE A POINT. To explain his dislike of donking, and I believe he did so effectively. Any player would take the donk if they have it; I hate donks, and take the donks if I have them. Why? Because all of us are at tournaments to win. Making some silly "stand" against donks is, truthfully, pointless. Donks exist, we have to deal with them, but we don't have to like them and have every right to express that dislike.

 

[Porii Sames]

No, I was reading it like "Well, I almost took back the donk and let him survive..." You don't almost take it back. When there's that much money on the line, I would never take it back. I don't know how you can "almost" not donk someone.

All people in this thread that have purposefully donked people sound like hypocrites to me. I play to have fun; winning is OK.

 

[Raen]

There's no hypocrisy at all in donking when it's available to you, but still disliking donking. You play the game the way it's made to be played; and obviously, donks are intended. It would be simply silly not to donk if it's available. However, should donks become less common, I would like the game more. I'd like to not donk and be donked, but sadly it's part of the game right now.

Again, going back to the original point of the topic: the real question is are donks fun/not fun and are they good for the game/not good for it? The question is not do you donk people/get donked.