Elite_4_Allen
New Member
You can netdeck lists all the time. You can't netdeck a brain, tho. Question is whether you need a brain for Lost World-Decks or not...
lol, i might sig that.
You can netdeck lists all the time. You can't netdeck a brain, tho. Question is whether you need a brain for Lost World-Decks or not...
Fulop's a great player, so my bit of a rant is in no way discounting that. I'll have to work on my own list and see how testing goes, but I have a hard time seeing how SP, a series of decks wholly known for their ability to outspeed and out-tech any deck in the format (including Machamp, which OHKO's everything in SP for 1 energy), simply cannot deal with a Stage 2 that "OHKO's" stuff for 1 energy.. like Machamp. Now, there's the chance that a Gengar can get 2 or more energy on it and send more than one Pokemon to the Lost Zone in a hit, but any good SP player will have ways to get Pokemon out of their hand (SP Radar, Bebe's, Junk Arm).
The other thing about Gengar is that it doesn't KO Pokemon on the field. When an SP player gets a Weavile up with the energy/resources to OHKO Gengar, there's little way for the Gengar player to KO the Weavile. So Weavile gets a KO, then another, then another, then... at some point the Gengar player won't have the resources to get another Gengar in play. With the previous build I shared that ran almost exactly like Jumpluff, swarming was no problem. Without Claydol, Roseanne's, etc., it'll likely fizzle out at some point.
Granted, I've done very limited testing with this type of matchup, but if someone can show me where my thinking is wrong, please let me know.
PS - isn't this like the billionth thread about Lost World/Gengar Prime?
You can netdeck lists all the time. You can't netdeck a brain, tho. Question is whether you need a brain for Lost World-Decks or not...
I disagree, and I think anyone discounting Gengar Prime/Lost World's skill has simply not played it.
Recall that this deck MUST WIN BEFORE TIME OR LOSE AUTOMATICALLY.
It's fast enough to do this. bo3 will be a problem.
Recall that this deck, without a counter, can fold to Dialga endlessly Deafening automatically.
Deckbuilding, not in game skill. It's also really easy to get your counter in time.
Recall that this deck, with a fossil on the opponent's bench, must rely on Spiritomb to get Pokemon into a player's hand.
Seeker, then Spiritomb. Good luck fishing out that fossil again.
Recall that a Dark type dealing 70+ damage will OHKO this turn after turn unopposed.
LostGar doesn't care about being knocked out. If there is a real problem, the 'Deafen' counter can be used to break this chain.
Recall that this deck can't hurt an opponent's main attacker, allowing them to stack them up unopposed.
Again, most of the times Gengar simply doesn't care. The times it will be a problem, teching will solve it.
This deck has a lot against it to be exploited, and if you think that people will win with the MOST HYPED DECK without spending lots of time figuring out how to work around those problems, you are mistaken. People will not win smack with this deck without testing their butts off.
I disagree, and I think anyone discounting Gengar Prime/Lost World's skill has simply not played it.
Recall that this deck MUST WIN BEFORE TIME OR LOSE AUTOMATICALLY.
Recall that this deck, without a counter, can fold to Dialga endlessly Deafening automatically.
Recall that this deck, with a fossil on the opponent's bench, must rely on Spiritomb to get Pokemon into a player's hand.
Recall that a Dark type dealing 70+ damage will OHKO this turn after turn unopposed.
Recall that this deck can't hurt an opponent's main attacker, allowing them to stack them up unopposed.
This deck has a lot against it to be exploited, and if you think that people will win with the MOST HYPED DECK without spending lots of time figuring out how to work around those problems, you are mistaken. People will not win smack with this deck without testing their butts off.
I hate how people think that the skill of playing is the same as the skill of deckbuilding. They're both important skills to have (deckbuilding is especially if you want to stay ahead of the curve).
Simply saying things like "LostGar doesn't care about that" isn't convincing enough to me when it comes to the issue of dark techs in an SP list. Say I tech in a 1-1 Absol X and get it in play within a few turns (not hard at all for SP) - why wouldn't Gengar "care" about getting OHKO'd turn after turn? Don't tell me that Gengar X will take care of Absol X. You may get 1 turn or two of deleveling off, but before long, all of your Gengars will be evaporated. SP can also Power Spray Spiritomb and, at least in my limited testing, manage the number of Pokemon in hand with cards like SP Radar, Bebe's Search, and Junk Arm (discounting what someone else said about Gengar taking 2+ "prizes" a turn).
LostGar doesn't operate like Jumpluff; you don't get to Cosmic Power three times in a row and drop an Uxie to get the Gastly/Rare Candy/Gengar you need to keep the swarm going. Instead, you get Seeker, meaning you get an Uxie if it's not Power Sprayed. LostGar also can't KO Absol X (or Weavile). And if you have to fish out random techs to take down the dark threats, then SP will probably win the race and snag its 6 prizes.
Is there something I'm desperately missing here? That question isn't rhetorical; unless you're a sloppy SP player with no answer at all for LostGar (which, given all the fuss, would be an appalling mistake), I don't see why the matchup isn't at least manageable in some way or another. Why isn't SP + 1/1 Absol X + 1 Weavile + Dark Energy ≥ LostGar?
Again, limited testing here, and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.
^ I thought playing call of duty was the lowest form of conscious thought.
1=1, thank you very much. -.-
Using only the recall/memorization of your brain is the lowest form of conscious thought.
There is no brains involved into Lostgar, only deckbuilding.
Why did it dominate in Japan?
I don't think there's an obvious tech for all of Gengar's faults. It can be popular but it won't totally alter the format.
Simply saying things like "LostGar doesn't care about that" isn't convincing enough to me when it comes to the issue of dark techs in an SP list. Say I tech in a 1-1 Absol X and get it in play within a few turns (not hard at all for SP) - why wouldn't Gengar "care" about getting OHKO'd turn after turn? Don't tell me that Gengar X will take care of Absol X. You may get 1 turn or two of deleveling off, but before long, all of your Gengars will be evaporated. SP can also Power Spray Spiritomb and, at least in my limited testing, manage the number of Pokemon in hand with cards like SP Radar, Bebe's Search, and Junk Arm (discounting what someone else said about Gengar taking 2+ "prizes" a turn).
LostGar doesn't operate like Jumpluff; you don't get to Cosmic Power three times in a row and drop an Uxie to get the Gastly/Rare Candy/Gengar you need to keep the swarm going. Instead, you get Seeker, meaning you get an Uxie if it's not Power Sprayed. LostGar also can't KO Absol X (or Weavile). And if you have to fish out random techs to take down the dark threats, then SP will probably win the race and snag its 6 prizes.
Is there something I'm desperately missing here? That question isn't rhetorical; unless you're a sloppy SP player with no answer at all for LostGar (which, given all the fuss, would be an appalling mistake), I don't see why the matchup isn't at least manageable in some way or another. Why isn't SP + 1/1 Absol X + 1 Weavile + Dark Energy ≥ LostGar?
Again, limited testing here, and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.
Japan was DP-on and 4 prizes before the switch to HGSS-on; isn't that what you said? If so, then LostGar dominated in Japan for the reason that I've already mentioned - it ran like Jumpluff with a heavy Claydol/BTS line. It also had Night Maintenance in it, as well as Roseanne's (meaning it could get by with like 7 energy total). Consider how Jumpluff played out - going second, it usually dropped an Uxie, dropped a BTS, and got a bajillion things in play without any problem, then hit with Jumpluff. Now consider that but on a 130 HP Pokemon that's capable of locking Poke-Powers (Mesprit) as well with multiple Seeker. Not to mention the all-too familiar Azelf MT tech.
Someone mentioned the SP Manectric awhile back. Resistance helps against Deafen, then run Rainbow Energy to power up the second attack for paralysis. I thought it sounded pretty good.
edit: sorry Sages_Training, I thought you had said that Japan was DP-on/4 prizes. It was actually said here.
Additionally... many SP decks run almost nothing but special energies. Lost Remover says hello. No Call Energy. No DCEs attached a turn in advance. No SP Energy. No Special Metals on your Dialga G. Every time you attach a special energy you cannot discard, you are giving your opponent a prize. Every time you fill your bench past three spots without a Spray in hand, you are giving your opponent a prize.
.
lost remover... whats that do?
Your assumptions seem based on the idea that LostGar wins primarily through Seeker + Hurl. It doesn't. By running earlygame Chatot G + Mime Jr., in combination with Palkia G Lv.X (which can be Spray'd, but that leaves LostGar free to Set Up), the deck can put several cards in the Lost Zone before Gengar Prime even hits the field. Additionally... many SP decks run almost nothing but special energies. Lost Remover says hello. No Call Energy. No DCEs attached a turn in advance. No SP Energy. No Special Metals on your Dialga G. Every time you attach a special energy you cannot discard, you are giving your opponent a prize. Every time you fill your bench past three spots without a Spray in hand, you are giving your opponent a prize.
Can you afford to do that? Testing says most SP builds can't. Additionally, there seems to be some confusion about how much a LostGar player will care if you OHKO Gengar Primes with Weavile or Absol G. The answer is effectively not at all, especially in the early game. By running at least two Twins, a LostGar player will capitalize on a knockout to put at least two of YOUR Pokémon in the Lost Zone. Unless an SP deck runs enough basic energies and can keep up a very steady stream of Sprays and knockouts, he or she will lost.
Absol G Lv.X doesn't phase Gengar because the deck can trade "prizes" from that point forward, and chances are it will already be ahead due to the factors mentioned above. At the very least, Lost Remover, extra attachments, PGX, etc. etc. can allow LostGar to sneak in a "prize" here and there, meaning they will win before the SP deck can take six prizes.
Im pretty darn sure that Lost world says Pokemon.