Confirmation Lost World is in the new set

[Elite_4_Allen]

You can netdeck lists all the time. You can't netdeck a brain, tho. Question is whether you need a brain for Lost World-Decks or not...

lol, i might sig that.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Fulop's a great player, so my bit of a rant is in no way discounting that. I'll have to work on my own list and see how testing goes, but I have a hard time seeing how SP, a series of decks wholly known for their ability to outspeed and out-tech any deck in the format (including Machamp, which OHKO's everything in SP for 1 energy), simply cannot deal with a Stage 2 that "OHKO's" stuff for 1 energy.. like Machamp. Now, there's the chance that a Gengar can get 2 or more energy on it and send more than one Pokemon to the Lost Zone in a hit, but any good SP player will have ways to get Pokemon out of their hand (SP Radar, Bebe's, Junk Arm).

The other thing about Gengar is that it doesn't KO Pokemon on the field. When an SP player gets a Weavile up with the energy/resources to OHKO Gengar, there's little way for the Gengar player to KO the Weavile. So Weavile gets a KO, then another, then another, then... at some point the Gengar player won't have the resources to get another Gengar in play. With the previous build I shared that ran almost exactly like Jumpluff, swarming was no problem. Without Claydol, Roseanne's, etc., it'll likely fizzle out at some point.

Granted, I've done very limited testing with this type of matchup, but if someone can show me where my thinking is wrong, please let me know.

PS - isn't this like the billionth thread about Lost World/Gengar Prime?

Just MHO, and I'm not nearly the SP player you are Eric, but in my own testing before the last set SP had a worse time against LostGar than many other decks did. A lot of that was due to the shere number of basics & lv.Xs in most SP decks vs limited bench spaces and 1 active.

SP can and does win on speed vs LostGar. It's just that LostGar really exploits SPs basic build assumptions in a way that no other deck outside of Machamp ever has ... and unlike Machamp, Gengar Prime isn't flippy vs non-basic decks.

 

[yoyofsho16]

You can netdeck lists all the time. You can't netdeck a brain, tho. Question is whether you need a brain for Lost World-Decks or not...

I disagree, and I think anyone discounting Gengar Prime/Lost World's skill has simply not played it.

Recall that this deck MUST WIN BEFORE TIME OR LOSE AUTOMATICALLY.
Recall that this deck, without a counter, can fold to Dialga endlessly Deafening automatically.
Recall that this deck, with a fossil on the opponent's bench, must rely on Spiritomb to get Pokemon into a player's hand.
Recall that a Dark type dealing 70+ damage will OHKO this turn after turn unopposed.
Recall that this deck can't hurt an opponent's main attacker, allowing them to stack them up unopposed.

This deck has a lot against it to be exploited, and if you think that people will win with the MOST HYPED DECK without spending lots of time figuring out how to work around those problems, you are mistaken. People will not win smack with this deck without testing their butts off.

 

[Haunter_FanBoy]

I disagree, and I think anyone discounting Gengar Prime/Lost World's skill has simply not played it.

Recall that this deck MUST WIN BEFORE TIME OR LOSE AUTOMATICALLY.

It's fast enough to do this. bo3 will be a problem.

Recall that this deck, without a counter, can fold to Dialga endlessly Deafening automatically.

Deckbuilding, not in game skill. It's also really easy to get your counter in time.

Recall that this deck, with a fossil on the opponent's bench, must rely on Spiritomb to get Pokemon into a player's hand.

Seeker, then Spiritomb. Good luck fishing out that fossil again.

Recall that a Dark type dealing 70+ damage will OHKO this turn after turn unopposed.

LostGar doesn't care about being knocked out. If there is a real problem, the 'Deafen' counter can be used to break this chain.

Recall that this deck can't hurt an opponent's main attacker, allowing them to stack them up unopposed.

Again, most of the times Gengar simply doesn't care. The times it will be a problem, teching will solve it.

This deck has a lot against it to be exploited, and if you think that people will win with the MOST HYPED DECK without spending lots of time figuring out how to work around those problems, you are mistaken. People will not win smack with this deck without testing their butts off.

There is no brains involved into Lostgar, only deckbuilding.

 

[eriknance]

Simply saying things like "LostGar doesn't care about that" isn't convincing enough to me when it comes to the issue of dark techs in an SP list. Say I tech in a 1-1 Absol X and get it in play within a few turns (not hard at all for SP) - why wouldn't Gengar "care" about getting OHKO'd turn after turn? Don't tell me that Gengar X will take care of Absol X. You may get 1 turn or two of deleveling off, but before long, all of your Gengars will be evaporated. SP can also Power Spray Spiritomb and, at least in my limited testing, manage the number of Pokemon in hand with cards like SP Radar, Bebe's Search, and Junk Arm (discounting what someone else said about Gengar taking 2+ "prizes" a turn).

LostGar doesn't operate like Jumpluff; you don't get to Cosmic Power three times in a row and drop an Uxie to get the Gastly/Rare Candy/Gengar you need to keep the swarm going. Instead, you get Seeker, meaning you get an Uxie if it's not Power Sprayed. LostGar also can't KO Absol X (or Weavile). And if you have to fish out random techs to take down the dark threats, then SP will probably win the race and snag its 6 prizes.

Is there something I'm desperately missing here? That question isn't rhetorical; unless you're a sloppy SP player with no answer at all for LostGar (which, given all the fuss, would be an appalling mistake), I don't see why the matchup isn't at least manageable in some way or another. Why isn't SP + 1/1 Absol X + 1 Weavile + Dark Energy ≥ LostGar?

Again, limited testing here, and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.

 

[Box of Fail]

I disagree, and I think anyone discounting Gengar Prime/Lost World's skill has simply not played it.

Recall that this deck MUST WIN BEFORE TIME OR LOSE AUTOMATICALLY.
Recall that this deck, without a counter, can fold to Dialga endlessly Deafening automatically.
Recall that this deck, with a fossil on the opponent's bench, must rely on Spiritomb to get Pokemon into a player's hand.
Recall that a Dark type dealing 70+ damage will OHKO this turn after turn unopposed.
Recall that this deck can't hurt an opponent's main attacker, allowing them to stack them up unopposed.

This deck has a lot against it to be exploited, and if you think that people will win with the MOST HYPED DECK without spending lots of time figuring out how to work around those problems, you are mistaken. People will not win smack with this deck without testing their butts off.

Your argument tells me that playing a theme deck takes skill, because there are lots of ways it could lose automatically.

I agree that the deck will need to tech for these things, and that there will be a lot if testing necessary, but it doesn't mean there's skill in actually PLAYING the deck; making Machamp/ Jumpluff/ Kingdra/ Shuppet/ insert donk deck here takes testing and careful list decisions, but playing it still takes no skill.

 

[Sages_Training]

I hate how people think that the skill of playing is the same as the skill of deckbuilding. They're both important skills to have (deckbuilding is especially if you want to stay ahead of the curve).

1=1, thank you very much. -.-

Using only the recall/memorization of your brain is the lowest form of conscious thought.

 

[Sages_Training]

Simply saying things like "LostGar doesn't care about that" isn't convincing enough to me when it comes to the issue of dark techs in an SP list. Say I tech in a 1-1 Absol X and get it in play within a few turns (not hard at all for SP) - why wouldn't Gengar "care" about getting OHKO'd turn after turn? Don't tell me that Gengar X will take care of Absol X. You may get 1 turn or two of deleveling off, but before long, all of your Gengars will be evaporated. SP can also Power Spray Spiritomb and, at least in my limited testing, manage the number of Pokemon in hand with cards like SP Radar, Bebe's Search, and Junk Arm (discounting what someone else said about Gengar taking 2+ "prizes" a turn).

LostGar doesn't operate like Jumpluff; you don't get to Cosmic Power three times in a row and drop an Uxie to get the Gastly/Rare Candy/Gengar you need to keep the swarm going. Instead, you get Seeker, meaning you get an Uxie if it's not Power Sprayed. LostGar also can't KO Absol X (or Weavile). And if you have to fish out random techs to take down the dark threats, then SP will probably win the race and snag its 6 prizes.

Is there something I'm desperately missing here? That question isn't rhetorical; unless you're a sloppy SP player with no answer at all for LostGar (which, given all the fuss, would be an appalling mistake), I don't see why the matchup isn't at least manageable in some way or another. Why isn't SP + 1/1 Absol X + 1 Weavile + Dark Energy ≥ LostGar?

Again, limited testing here, and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.

Why did it dominate in Japan?

---------- Post added 01/24/2011 at 02:29 PM ----------

^ I thought playing call of duty was the lowest form of conscious thought.

CoD uses recall and memorization. The highest level of thought in most FPS is knowing where the spawn points are...

...That was funny though.


Let me put an end to all this with an example most of you may be a bit familar with.

Swordsmenship.

Technique utilizes training and experience. Recall, muscle memory. It's a great thing to have, but without any skill, you will lose to someone with less experience who has high skill.

The skill in swordplay is a form of area management, where you counter each other's moves and try to force your opponenet to make a move you wanted them to.

Pretty much all the popular decks out there, if not all, take no skill because of these reasons:

1) You are not being inventive. You are countering what you KNOW your opponenet will do, without you making them do it.
2) It is based on turns, which, I would hope you all know, there is no deffinate pauses in swordplay. With turns being part of the formular, it makes it possible to not need to set up against your opponent, but rather play against yourself, in a sense.
a. The decks are highly specialized and try to win in a very specefic way. You throw in many things that are called "techs" but can do nothing more than one thing for you. This is not inventive or versitile, nor does it belong to your "family" of tools. It's very general.
b. Because of the specefic way to win, you will always be forced to put something down that you view as "essential," when in reality, it is not. You are only thinking about this turn. I see too many "good" players making this mistake. They are not playing in the "now" but rather in the past, as as soon as you end your turn, whatever you do, I can counter it. This isn't usually the case with SP decks, because, they are so speed based, that they literally "force" a win without true counter. This is why SP is over powered in my eyes. Yes, everything the do is essential, but that isn't skill, it's technique, and a technique that requires no skill is an over powered one. The only time there is skill involved is against another OP deck (usually SP...) what does that say? Gyarados...discard Magicarp, warp out of death/conditions... It's like playing against a computer, not a person. There are no surprizes, besides maybe a tech or two, and if thinking once or twice in a match is your idea of skill, then maybe you should be playing checkers.

When cards are released that allow for a small handfull of very specialized decks, this is what happens. It's not the player's fault, though, so don't be angry at them. Be angry that such a deck is allowed to exist.

When you have many, many decks out there that are specialized TO THEMSELVES, not in a general way, (i.e. WAAAAY too manys "staples" out there) then it allows for much more thought, as you must think steps ahead.
1) You may not have any idea what the deck is like, besides what is immediately infront of you.
--This forces you to play truely causiously. A good game is won by 1-2 prizes. (sometimes it can't be helped that it wasn't the best of games)
2) A good game doesn't consist of both players playing 50% or more of the same cards.
3) You will save cards to use waaay later in the match. "Waaay later" doesn't mean 10 minutes later because people take 4 minute turns.
4) You will force your opponenet to play into you and if your opponent is good, they will let it happen while setting up a trap for you.

The popular decks do not set up traps. Playing against them is a trap in theselves.

 

[Organic]

lost remover... whats that do?

 

[vegitalian]

1=1, thank you very much. -.-

Using only the recall/memorization of your brain is the lowest form of conscious thought.

All I'm saying, is don't demean deckbuilding - people can 'netdeck' or copy lists, but without actually making it yourself and understanding why the lines are what they are, you will never truly master it.

 

[LoTad]

Netdecking is the equivalent to just watching a good player play. You wouldn't say that anyone can greatly improve their skill level to a high level just by watching a lot of pokemon. You only improve and reap the benefits of deckbuilding and skilled playing if you work at them yourself.

 

[Moxinumon]

I think i'll put 4 judge in my deck... And 3 vs seeker. Just in case. And just rely on pokepowers to get what i want from my deck. Hand is not safe anymore.

 

[yoyofsho16]

There is no brains involved into Lostgar, only deckbuilding.

Nononono

Deafen counters are NOT an end-all.
For example:

I am Deafening with Dialga vs Gengar, with just a 1 energy + e-gain dialga up front, and you drop Blaziken.
I do nothing. Deafen again.
Then you Level Up, kill Dialga. Take a prize.
I send out a new Dialga. Aaron's/VS Seeker/Fast Call to get the KO'd Dialga back. Bench. Deafen for 50.
You kill me again, I send up recovered Dialga. You're taking no more than 2 prizes, I never break lock, and kill Blaziken in 2 hits unless you retreat. If you ran 2-2, that might make sense and be harder to break. But that's a hefty line.

Blaze just ain't the answer. better counter without +40 is needed, but I don't know one that could fit comfortably into Gengar. Machamp, perhaps.

I don't think there's an obvious tech for all of Gengar's faults. It can be popular but it won't totally alter the format.

 

[eriknance]

Why did it dominate in Japan?

Japan was DP-on and 4 prizes before the switch to HGSS-on; isn't that what you said? If so, then LostGar dominated in Japan for the reason that I've already mentioned - it ran like Jumpluff with a heavy Claydol/BTS line. It also had Night Maintenance in it, as well as Roseanne's (meaning it could get by with like 7 energy total). Consider how Jumpluff played out - going second, it usually dropped an Uxie, dropped a BTS, and got a bajillion things in play without any problem, then hit with Jumpluff. Now consider that but on a 130 HP Pokemon that's capable of locking Poke-Powers (Mesprit) as well with multiple Seeker. Not to mention the all-too familiar Azelf MT tech.

I don't think there's an obvious tech for all of Gengar's faults. It can be popular but it won't totally alter the format.

Someone mentioned the SP Manectric awhile back. Resistance helps against Deafen, then run Rainbow Energy to power up the second attack for paralysis. I thought it sounded pretty good.

edit: sorry Sages_Training, I thought you had said that Japan was DP-on/4 prizes. It was actually said here.

 

[Politoed666]

Simply saying things like "LostGar doesn't care about that" isn't convincing enough to me when it comes to the issue of dark techs in an SP list. Say I tech in a 1-1 Absol X and get it in play within a few turns (not hard at all for SP) - why wouldn't Gengar "care" about getting OHKO'd turn after turn? Don't tell me that Gengar X will take care of Absol X. You may get 1 turn or two of deleveling off, but before long, all of your Gengars will be evaporated. SP can also Power Spray Spiritomb and, at least in my limited testing, manage the number of Pokemon in hand with cards like SP Radar, Bebe's Search, and Junk Arm (discounting what someone else said about Gengar taking 2+ "prizes" a turn).

LostGar doesn't operate like Jumpluff; you don't get to Cosmic Power three times in a row and drop an Uxie to get the Gastly/Rare Candy/Gengar you need to keep the swarm going. Instead, you get Seeker, meaning you get an Uxie if it's not Power Sprayed. LostGar also can't KO Absol X (or Weavile). And if you have to fish out random techs to take down the dark threats, then SP will probably win the race and snag its 6 prizes.

Is there something I'm desperately missing here? That question isn't rhetorical; unless you're a sloppy SP player with no answer at all for LostGar (which, given all the fuss, would be an appalling mistake), I don't see why the matchup isn't at least manageable in some way or another. Why isn't SP + 1/1 Absol X + 1 Weavile + Dark Energy ≥ LostGar?

Again, limited testing here, and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.

Your assumptions seem based on the idea that LostGar wins primarily through Seeker + Hurl. It doesn't. By running earlygame Chatot G + Mime Jr., in combination with Palkia G Lv.X (which can be Spray'd, but that leaves LostGar free to Set Up), the deck can put several cards in the Lost Zone before Gengar Prime even hits the field. Additionally... many SP decks run almost nothing but special energies. Lost Remover says hello. No Call Energy. No DCEs attached a turn in advance. No SP Energy. No Special Metals on your Dialga G. Every time you attach a special energy you cannot discard, you are giving your opponent a prize. Every time you fill your bench past three spots without a Spray in hand, you are giving your opponent a prize.

Can you afford to do that? Testing says most SP builds can't. Additionally, there seems to be some confusion about how much a LostGar player will care if you OHKO Gengar Primes with Weavile or Absol G. The answer is effectively not at all, especially in the early game. By running at least two Twins, a LostGar player will capitalize on a knockout to put at least two of YOUR Pokémon in the Lost Zone. Unless an SP deck runs enough basic energies and can keep up a very steady stream of Sprays and knockouts, he or she will lost.

Absol G Lv.X doesn't phase Gengar because the deck can trade "prizes" from that point forward, and chances are it will already be ahead due to the factors mentioned above. At the very least, Lost Remover, extra attachments, PGX, etc. etc. can allow LostGar to sneak in a "prize" here and there, meaning they will win before the SP deck can take six prizes.

 

[Sages_Training]

Japan was DP-on and 4 prizes before the switch to HGSS-on; isn't that what you said? If so, then LostGar dominated in Japan for the reason that I've already mentioned - it ran like Jumpluff with a heavy Claydol/BTS line. It also had Night Maintenance in it, as well as Roseanne's (meaning it could get by with like 7 energy total). Consider how Jumpluff played out - going second, it usually dropped an Uxie, dropped a BTS, and got a bajillion things in play without any problem, then hit with Jumpluff. Now consider that but on a 130 HP Pokemon that's capable of locking Poke-Powers (Mesprit) as well with multiple Seeker. Not to mention the all-too familiar Azelf MT tech.



Someone mentioned the SP Manectric awhile back. Resistance helps against Deafen, then run Rainbow Energy to power up the second attack for paralysis. I thought it sounded pretty good.

edit: sorry Sages_Training, I thought you had said that Japan was DP-on/4 prizes. It was actually said here.

Thank you much, Erik.

 

[amphachu]

Additionally... many SP decks run almost nothing but special energies. Lost Remover says hello. No Call Energy. No DCEs attached a turn in advance. No SP Energy. No Special Metals on your Dialga G. Every time you attach a special energy you cannot discard, you are giving your opponent a prize. Every time you fill your bench past three spots without a Spray in hand, you are giving your opponent a prize.

.

Im pretty darn sure that Lost world says Pokemon.

 

[jjkkl]

Once again Pokegym hypes the wrong card.

Obviously, Lost World has nothing on the inevitable dominance of Celebi Prime tank. :| Time Circle for 30 pummels all foes and Celebi kills aleins and doesnt afraid of anything

lost remover... whats that do?

Sends a defending's special energy into the Lost Zone.

 

[eriknance]

Your assumptions seem based on the idea that LostGar wins primarily through Seeker + Hurl. It doesn't. By running earlygame Chatot G + Mime Jr., in combination with Palkia G Lv.X (which can be Spray'd, but that leaves LostGar free to Set Up), the deck can put several cards in the Lost Zone before Gengar Prime even hits the field. Additionally... many SP decks run almost nothing but special energies. Lost Remover says hello. No Call Energy. No DCEs attached a turn in advance. No SP Energy. No Special Metals on your Dialga G. Every time you attach a special energy you cannot discard, you are giving your opponent a prize. Every time you fill your bench past three spots without a Spray in hand, you are giving your opponent a prize.

Can you afford to do that? Testing says most SP builds can't. Additionally, there seems to be some confusion about how much a LostGar player will care if you OHKO Gengar Primes with Weavile or Absol G. The answer is effectively not at all, especially in the early game. By running at least two Twins, a LostGar player will capitalize on a knockout to put at least two of YOUR Pokémon in the Lost Zone. Unless an SP deck runs enough basic energies and can keep up a very steady stream of Sprays and knockouts, he or she will lost.

Absol G Lv.X doesn't phase Gengar because the deck can trade "prizes" from that point forward, and chances are it will already be ahead due to the factors mentioned above. At the very least, Lost Remover, extra attachments, PGX, etc. etc. can allow LostGar to sneak in a "prize" here and there, meaning they will win before the SP deck can take six prizes.

Thank you for an honest, in-depth answer. I'll definitely start trying the Chatot G/Mime Jr. approach, though most LostGar lists I've seen on this site don't include this at all. Also, though I like Lost Remover, I don't know how viable it is in LostGar; it seems to deviate a bit from the core strategy. But I'll try that out too.

Again, thanks for giving concrete answers. Still going to do the testing before I just assume that LostGar is the end of the Pokemon TCG forever.

 

[Kayle]

Im pretty darn sure that Lost world says Pokemon.

Yeah, pretty sure that energy going in there doesn't mean anything.