Creating a ban/restriction list for a more fun and strategic Pokemon TCG

[Glaceon]

OP - I think this is about you trying to push your way (of playing nonstandard decks) on others.

1) I choose to not play standard decks because its not fun and boring. Rather I play with fun and creative decks. I don't wear it as a badge of honor or anything but you're entitled to what you think. However, I can also say because you only play standard, you can't look at the game and see nothing wrong with it when in fact there is. I suggest you play some rogue or non standard decks and you'll see what I mean. I can play standard decks and rogue decks while you only play standard. I see the game differently then you.

You want other people to play rogue decks so by creating a banlist that bans the entire-freaking-metagame, everyone has to play rogue until a new archtype pops up in which case you'd push for it to be banned too.

I do believe my format does cater to people. Some out there want a more competitive Pokemon TCG. I've tried to get magic and yugioh players to play Pokemon. Most dont or laugh at the game because they think its too easy to do well. If I can get them to play a pokemon the way they are used to, perhaps they will play standard. The ONLY reason different formats like 150 dont work here is because Pokemon players dont want to try new things, its like it scares them and I dont understand that. Rather than try something out to see if you all like it, you just shoot it down.

It caters to you, because you apparently play rogue a lot while most people don't.

 

[vaporeon]

OP - I think this is about you trying to push your way (of playing nonstandard decks) on others.


You want other people to play rogue decks so by creating a banlist that bans the entire-freaking-metagame, everyone has to play rogue until a new archtype pops up in which case you'd push for it to be banned too.

This misstates my post. I don't want everyone to play rogue. The list is to encourage new decks or current weaker decks to do well as well. If they want to make a rogue, they can now do it without worrying about being evil balled out of the game. They don't have to worry too much about losing a few turns while they set up. The top decks will be there/ You still have darkrai, blastoise/keldeo,genesect and plasma if you want to play them, they are just weaker.

It caters to you, because you apparently play rogue a lot while most people don't.

It caters to deck construction as players can now build decks they wanted to try, since they may be able to do well now. I only prefer rogues because it challenges the creative spirit within me. If you want to play meta, then go for it, you still have that option. The list was thought up with the game in mind.

 

[vaporeon]

@loudkirbyking

Yes, there will always be issues with a ban list. However in yugioh, their list is made with money in mind to force players to play the new, promoted archetype. Their list is not really about the health of the format like it once was, since they keep putting the same effects on the new cards that got banned the format before. However with the list in Pokemon, things should only be banned IF they cause imbalance within the current and foreseen formats. There will always be tier one decks but if that tier one deck makes the format into a play or counter format, it will be looked at. If that tier one deck does not do that and is tier one because of its synergy and other decks exist that can beat it, then it may not be looked at if nothing is broken or unbalances the format.

You do bring up the point of cards being looked at. Perhaps its better to have more catchers in the format but we have to remember that basic pokemon (both non and EX) are still powerful and a catcher heads flip can still cause problem. It was a few years ago where people lived or died to reversal flips. Maybe 2 are good there. With BW-Extended, we'll have to create a second ban list for that format as well since things like zekeels will become a problem. Everything will need to be tested but once a solid list is constructed, everything should be fine until something needs to be looked at.

As for your last point, its better to test these two things together because what may be broken or overpowered by itself may not be broken with a side deck since counter options open up.

 

[Tagrineth]

vaporeon why do you literally bring this exact topic up every 6 months? It's always going to be the same thing, it's simply not going to happen, and half your issues with the format will be resolved by the next rotation anyway!

 

[Mekkah]

While I agree with the bulk of your post, I felt the need to respond to this. I can take constructive criticism but what I refuse to accept is when people say I'm inexperienced at higher level of play without any evidence to back that up. I assume you consider "at higher level play" tournaments where the quality of players are from good to great, where the overall "skill" tends to be higher. I expect good players to play very well at any level of competition, not just the big ones. At the big one, there are simply more players that I expect to play well, but with pokemon being a very simplistic game (deck strats are not that difficult to pull off for any less skillful player of skillful player), I expect all games played to be at a decent level to start from, regardless of the skill of that player.

If we can say this is whats required to be a competitive skillful player, then I can say I've player a more competitive card game (yugioh) at what you consider a higher level, where the quality of player and skill are much higher than that of Pokemon. I may also add I've met some of these tournaments with top cuts or leaving them with positive records. Since Yugioh is a much skillful card game than Pokemon, that pretty much kills your statement about any lack of skill you think I may have, however I could not expect you to know that so I thought I'd just educate you.

So then give us your credentials at Pokémon. Why are you of all people qualified to design an alternative metagame? All you gave me now is a vague amount of experience at a different cardgame. You're basically telling us: "I know enough about Pokémon to make it healthier because I've played some YGO tournaments and left them with a positive Swiss record". Not only is a positive Swiss record something about half the people accomplish, it's not even relevant. Even if it is more skill based than Pokémon. Although earlier in this thread you complained that you were pretty much eliminated from a YGO game turn 1 and couldn't do anything...

So, how many CCs have you top cut in Pokémon? In this format, or ever? How many did you win? Regionals? Nationals? Worlds invites? Worlds accomplishments? Why does your opinion matter more than all these naysayers on the gym, many of which have probably done better at aforementioned events? If a National or World Champ came into this thread and told you you were wrong, wouldn't that be pretty telling?

There will always be tier one decks but if that tier one deck makes the format into a play or counter format, it will be looked at. If that tier one deck does not do that and is tier one because of its synergy and other decks exist that can beat it, then it may not be looked at if nothing is broken or unbalances the format.

And yet, currently Yveltal has some of the best synergies within the deck in the game. And Thundurus EX, Pyroar and Raichu exist to counter it. It's done very well on Nationals worldwide, but so have Virgen, Plasma, Pyroar and Garbodor variants. Meanwhile, in your banlist, Virgen is undisputably the best deck in the format, even better than it is in the current real modified format, since you:
a) nerfed Genesct less than other decks
b) nerfed Genesect's counterdecks to the point of being unplayable

 

[vaporeon]

^ Im not the only one trying to make this list. If you read the thread, you'll know Im trying to get input from everyone and make a good list. So far, very few people gave any feedback while everyone else wants to argue. Most people here have no interest in testing this list. Virgen did not get hit hard because its not that overpowered without G Booster. Its still a good deck but 100+ snipe will be common unless you use G scope. The deck still has counters... Ho-Oh ex still exist and so does Flareon. You still have emboar and Charizard.

I also felt the need to post my Yugioh experience because you said I have none at higher lever of play. I was just saying I have experience at higher level of play in a much more skillful and competitive game. You dont get to move the goalpost because I met you standards.

 

[SMP88]

I thought many people were jumping ship from Yugioh because it's pretty much play (expensive) cards and win.

 

[vaporeon]

I thought many people were jumping ship from Yugioh because it's pretty much play (expensive) cards and win.

It used to be like that. As of now, the reprint a lot of cards and remove staples from limited to semi limited to help deal with the overpowered cards. The game still has the super expensive cards but in a month or so, I'll get printed in a structure deck or made into a gold pack. As much as I hate to say it, Yugioh's meta is pretty healthy.

 

[Tagrineth]

^ Im not the only one trying to make this list. If you read the thread, you'll know Im trying to get input from everyone and make a good list. So far, very few people gave any feedback while everyone else wants to argue. Most people here have no interest in testing this list. Virgen did not get hit hard because its not that overpowered without G Booster. Its still a good deck but 100+ snipe will be common unless you use G scope. The deck still has counters... Ho-Oh ex still exist and so does Flareon. You still have emboar and Charizard.

I also felt the need to post my Yugioh experience because you said I have none at higher lever of play. I was just saying I have experience at higher level of play in a much more skillful and competitive game. You dont get to move the goalpost because I met you standards.

Yugioh... more skillful... uhhhhh... okay

I guess cheating and not getting DQ'd is a skill too

 

[loudkirbyking]

@loudkirbyking

Yes, there will always be issues with a ban list. However in yugioh, their list is made with money in mind to force players to play the new, promoted archetype. Their list is not really about the health of the format like it once was, since they keep putting the same effects on the new cards that got banned the format before. However with the list in Pokemon, things should only be banned IF they cause imbalance within the current and foreseen formats. There will always be tier one decks but if that tier one deck makes the format into a play or counter format, it will be looked at. If that tier one deck does not do that and is tier one because of its synergy and other decks exist that can beat it, then it may not be looked at if nothing is broken or unbalances the format.

You do bring up the point of cards being looked at. Perhaps its better to have more catchers in the format but we have to remember that basic pokemon (both non and EX) are still powerful and a catcher heads flip can still cause problem. It was a few years ago where people lived or died to reversal flips. Maybe 2 are good there. With BW-Extended, we'll have to create a second ban list for that format as well since things like zekeels will become a problem. Everything will need to be tested but once a solid list is constructed, everything should be fine until something needs to be looked at.

As for your last point, its better to test these two things together because what may be broken or overpowered by itself may not be broken with a side deck since counter options open up.

The issue now is that you assume pokemon isn't into money and/or won't do the same thing. Who's to say Pokemon won't make another Evil Ball attack on a new type like Fire types or Water types? Plus if your goal is to create a format where the tier one decks don't have to be specifically countered by x techs or you lose, then you'll find a lot of bias in trying to make this list. People will begin to complain about X deck not being playable because of Y, and whine that Y needs to be banned. Even with a banlist and ignoring bias, think about explaining it to the younger kids Pokemon is marketing to if they decide to implement something like this. Tell a 7 year old that the Mega Charizard he pulled, he can't play because it's too good. Sure, Yugioh has the same problem but it has a difference. It's not aimed at kids nearly as much as pokemon, but more for the teen market from my experience. That, and cards are from every set so you can't tell a kid that the Yugi starter deck cards he got from a friend aren't good, but you can tell a kid that the base set stuff his cousin brought him aren't good. It's limiting a limited format even more, which is a bit sad at first thought and really sad when you realize that the format would need it to exit this big basics era, or something else big.

But nonetheless, back to card issues. The one thing you did not mention was the issues with Genesect again. Even with Flareon and Ho-oh, realize this issue. Firstly, Genesect is much more consistent, especially with Virizion not even being limited. Secondly, the cards Flareon needed, namely Superior energy retrieval(Iffy for this deck, but it's the only other item discard card besides UB and gets energy out without super rodding it) and Juniper/Sycamore to get more pokemon in the discard are now limited. Sure, Ultra ball and Comp search are there, but you did just cut out the main supporter of that deck to 2, and a potential item. Though don't quote me too much on Superior, I haven't played Flareon much myself beyond seeing a few lists run it. Much less, you'd have to get 2 Eevees down just to avoid the red signal into megalo cannon for the OHKO. And it can still OHKO the Flareon while the Flareon needs 5 pokemon and muscle band or 7 pokemon in discard to revenge. Running Garbodor works though, right? Not really. You can either red signal it up easily, play a startling megaphone if it has a tool, or use the one Lysandre. And you might be thinking, 'I can get another one out', but it's only a 2-2 line. Every time I've played Garbodor, and seen people play Garbodor, it's HAD to be a 3-3 line because of just how easily the Trubbish and Garbodor get knocked out and targeted due to Lyssandre, catcher, and red signal, not to mention prized cards. It takes 2 Garbodor, or 1 if one's prized sent up to stop that quick. And now you might think of Sacred Ash or Super rod, but is Flareon REALLY going to be getting pokemon out from the discard much? Is it worth shutting down red signal to kill 30-50 damage when you all ready have troubles getting it down there in the first place? And one more thing that truly ruin this match-up. Plasma Frigate. Sure, counter stadiums, but what stadium would Flareon run? Frozen City?

As for Ho-oh... That's more iffy. The issues with Ho-oh are the same with Flareon. Milling cards just became a lot harder due to Juniper limits, plus Plasma Frigate. Unless you want every fire deck having to deck in enhanced hammers and stadiums to deal with VirGen, but that's 2-4 card slots against arguable your best match-up. Still overcentralizing.

Of course this matchup is mostly theory and just working off lists from this potential new format, but it makes logical sense. Yes, it can go the other way if Flareon gets a great start, but the fact that a deck that should autowin against Genesect still has issues, I'd say that it's a sign that the banlist needs some tuning to prevent this. If you slap every tier 1 deck on the wrist but 1 that you lightly poke, which one will come out on top? It tends to be swayed a bit more towards VirGen than other decks.

Lastly, this is either side. In the first place, if you want these implemented, not a lot of people would want both changes at once. More people prefer to experiment with one change before going onto another. On the other hand, you are right in that some combinations would only be broken with side deck. However, some wouldn't need any banning without side decks that would prevent people from playing if you implemented both. This is more personal opinion, yes, but at least if you were to bring this to me I would tell you to only focus on either the ban list or the side deck at first to keep the changes more simple and calm for players who want to get into a new format. But hey, to each their own.

 

[vaporeon]

The issue now is that you assume pokemon isn't into money and/or won't do the same thing. Who's to say Pokemon won't make another Evil Ball attack on a new type like Fire types or Water types? Plus if your goal is to create a format where the tier one decks don't have to be specifically countered by x techs or you lose, then you'll find a lot of bias in trying to make this list. People will begin to complain about X deck not being playable because of Y, and whine that Y needs to be banned. Even with a banlist and ignoring bias, think about explaining it to the younger kids Pokemon is marketing to if they decide to implement something like this. Tell a 7 year old that the Mega Charizard he pulled, he can't play because it's too good. Sure, Yugioh has the same problem but it has a difference. It's not aimed at kids nearly as much as pokemon, but more for the teen market from my experience. That, and cards are from every set so you can't tell a kid that the Yugi starter deck cards he got from a friend aren't good, but you can tell a kid that the base set stuff his cousin brought him aren't good. It's limiting a limited format even more, which is a bit sad at first thought and really sad when you realize that the format would need it to exit this big basics era, or something else big.

At this point its clear Pokemon is in it for the money. The problem is the game can't find a middle ground. Either EXs are too powerful, non evolving basic are too powerful or evolutions are too good. The first ex format, evolution cards were too good (they also has evolved ex's as well) while non evolving basics were too weak due to low damage output and HP but some were good. Most staged evolution cards had use even if it wasn't ex. Now, even if the non evolving basic isn't EX, it still hits as hard as one. Look at plasma, Kyurem is a beat stick. Between 3 or more Deoxys, laser and muscle band, your hitting for over 170, which will KO anything in the format thats not a mega. I would like to see these big basics leave as well but since its not happening anytime soon, this list should help with that.

But nonetheless, back to card issues. The one thing you did not mention was the issues with Genesect again. Even with Flareon and Ho-oh, realize this issue. Firstly, Genesect is much more consistent, especially with Virizion not even being limited. Secondly, the cards Flareon needed, namely Superior energy retrieval(Iffy for this deck, but it's the only other item discard card besides UB and gets energy out without super rodding it) and Juniper/Sycamore to get more pokemon in the discard are now limited. Sure, Ultra ball and Comp search are there, but you did just cut out the main supporter of that deck to 2, and a potential item. Though don't quote me too much on Superior, I haven't played Flareon much myself beyond seeing a few lists run it. Much less, you'd have to get 2 Eevees down just to avoid the red signal into megalo cannon for the OHKO. And it can still OHKO the Flareon while the Flareon needs 5 pokemon and muscle band or 7 pokemon in discard to revenge. Running Garbodor works though, right? Not really. You can either red signal it up easily, play a startling megaphone if it has a tool, or use the one Lysandre. And you might be thinking, 'I can get another one out', but it's only a 2-2 line. Every time I've played Garbodor, and seen people play Garbodor, it's HAD to be a 3-3 line because of just how easily the Trubbish and Garbodor get knocked out and targeted due to Lyssandre, catcher, and red signal, not to mention prized cards. It takes 2 Garbodor, or 1 if one's prized sent up to stop that quick. And now you might think of Sacred Ash or Super rod, but is Flareon REALLY going to be getting pokemon out from the discard much? Is it worth shutting down red signal to kill 30-50 damage when you all ready have troubles getting it down there in the first place? And one more thing that truly ruin this match-up. Plasma Frigate. Sure, counter stadiums, but what stadium would Flareon run? Frozen City?

I don't really see the problem everyone else sees with genesect. Without G booster, it has to 2HKO its attackers, which most decks will do anyway. Perhaps its better to get right of both its Ace Specs to keep all damage on the active. The fastest it can attack is turn 3 so there is setup time for the opponents deck unless there are shenanigans involved. Fire decks are still good with Emboar and Blacksmith. You just have to get creative. The cardpool is much bigger than you think it is. Also, Flareon has a second attack for a fire and DCE that deal 90 damage. Pyroar is also good.

As for Ho-oh... That's more iffy. The issues with Ho-oh are the same with Flareon. Milling cards just became a lot harder due to Juniper limits, plus Plasma Frigate. Unless you want every fire deck having to deck in enhanced hammers and stadiums to deal with VirGen, but that's 2-4 card slots against arguable your best match-up. Still overcentralizing.

Ho-OH is odd because of its coin flip ability but not that hard to get going. There are still plenty of options for it. Ho-Ohs biggest strength is its ability. Do go guns blazing with it from the start but use its comeback factor. There are also plenty of ways to get energy into the discard. Perhaps paring it with another attack that uses colorless energy is good.

Of course this matchup is mostly theory and just working off lists from this potential new format, but it makes logical sense. Yes, it can go the other way if Flareon gets a great start, but the fact that a deck that should autowin against Genesect still has issues, I'd say that it's a sign that the banlist needs some tuning to prevent this. If you slap every tier 1 deck on the wrist but 1 that you lightly poke, which one will come out on top? It tends to be swayed a bit more towards VirGen than other decks.

Yes, we would still need to test this. Perhaps Virgen needs more bans and restrictions but that cant be known right now.

Lastly, this is either side. In the first place, if you want these implemented, not a lot of people would want both changes at once. More people prefer to experiment with one change before going onto another. On the other hand, you are right in that some combinations would only be broken with side deck. However, some wouldn't need any banning without side decks that would prevent people from playing if you implemented both. This is more personal opinion, yes, but at least if you were to bring this to me I would tell you to only focus on either the ban list or the side deck at first to keep the changes more simple and calm for players who want to get into a new format. But hey, to each their own.

These changes would have to happen together, since its for that format. Also the first turn rule is changed to allow first turn setup attacks to be used. Its best to see how they interact together so changes can happen together.

 

[Tagrineth]

vaporeon, the old EX format had a lot of powerhouse basics. in fact for a long time one of THE best pokemon-ex was Rayquaza ex from ex:dragon... you pretty much have no idea what you're talking about with oldschool pokemon. just stop trying.

also, there won't be a ban list.

 

[vaporeon]

vaporeon, the old EX format had a lot of powerhouse basics. in fact for a long time one of THE best pokemon-ex was Rayquaza ex from ex:dragon... you pretty much have no idea what you're talking about with oldschool pokemon. just stop trying.

also, there won't be a ban list.

You seem to be taking a very immature approach to this thread. You also seem to be angry for no good reason whatsoever. Also, I also said some non evolving pokemon were good. That also includes the legendary ex birds and Lugia ex. Just because I did not list cards by name does not mean anything.

 

[Tagrineth]

You seem to be taking a very immature approach to this thread. You also seem to be angry for no good reason whatsoever. Also, I also said some non evolving pokemon were good. That also includes the legendary ex birds and Lugia ex. Just because I did not list cards by name does not mean anything.

I'm not angry. I'm just stating things I've said before, the last time you made a thread like this. I don't like repeating myself and I don't get why you're banging your head against a wall with a thread like this that literally serves no purpose except to reiterate the usual "I'm Vaporeon and I hate meta decks, Pokemon needs to do this totally unrealistic thing (that they have a 1% chance of doing) so there won't be meta decks".

 

[vaporeon]

I'm not angry. I'm just stating things I've said before, the last time you made a thread like this. I don't like repeating myself and I don't get why you're banging your head against a wall with a thread like this that literally serves no purpose except to reiterate the usual "I'm Vaporeon and I hate meta decks, Pokemon needs to do this totally unrealistic thing (that they have a 1% chance of doing) so there won't be meta decks".

I think you are angry. You posted nothing here of interest and did so with arguing in mind. In stead of saying they wont do it or i wont work, give some evidence to why it wont. Each thread I make serves a purpose, even if you dont want it to. I just dont make threads because I want to but because I feel a change is needed will voice my opinion. Now, I provided reasoning why I feel these cards should be banned, restricted or at least looked at.

I also feel for a game to be more competitive or want to be more competitive, fairness in game balance should not be a issue and it is. Games played at the highest level and I mean any competitive event, no matter how small should have rules to keep the competitive environment "in check". Games use bans and restrictions to keep the meta balanced if they feel something is too cheap, unpredictable or overpowered.

Also there will always be a meta in games that use bans and restrictions.

 

[Tagrineth]

I think you are angry. You posted nothing here of interest and did so with arguing in mind. In stead of saying they wont do it or i wont work, give some evidence to why it wont. Each thread I make serves a purpose, even if you dont want it to. I just dont make threads because I want to but because I feel a change is needed will voice my opinion. Now, I provided reasoning why I feel these cards should be banned, restricted or at least looked at.

My very first post in this thread amounts to "They won't do it." Why? Because they have no reason to. They have NO REASON to. NONE. NOT ONE. Not a SINGLE valid reason to do so. I shouldn't have to explain why.

And this thread's purpose is 100% purely you voicing your opinion and nothing else. It has no constructive purpose other than "QQ I hate these cards and want them banned because QQ", effectively.

I also feel for a game to be more competitive or want to be more competitive, fairness in game balance should not be a issue and it is. Games played at the highest level and I mean any competitive event, no matter how small should have rules to keep the competitive environment "in check". Games use bans and restrictions to keep the meta balanced if they feel something is too cheap, unpredictable or overpowered.

Bans and restrictions should only be used in cases where the cards truly create an unhealthy format. In other words, a format where there is only one real option and that's about it. The only time Pokemon has EVER had to do this was NG Slowking and NG Sneasel. Slowking had to be banned because of a translation error (WotC hates HAAAAAATES errata), and Sneasel would've quite literally been in every single competitive deck if he was allowed at the time. Zero exceptions. There was quite literally NO reason ever to exclude 3 sneasel and 4 special dark energy in every deck list in the Neo block, which is legitimately unhealthy for the game since all games would just degenerate into sneasel wars.

As good as Mewtwo EX is, it's never quite been auto-include, and unlike sneasel, the card does have drawbacks to being included in a deck, INCLUDING the fact that it counters itself. And the way Mewtwo was designed, format checks could be developed (including powerful attackers that discard a lot of energy, or attack very cost efficiently) - also very unlike Sneasel's "herp derp 200 damage here you go"

Instead of using an unwieldy and frustrating ban/restriction list, Nintendo prefers evolving the format through a combination of new set releases, rotations, and each generation, some rules changes (and lately, errata but only at the start of a generation). The only deck that's really been dominant for far too long to some extent is Darkrai, and Yveltal did give it a heck of a boost going into the XY format, but so what? Even Yveltal decks don't all look the same, since some of the most recent successes have come from Yveltal/Garbodor rather than needing Darkrai as a crutch. And it's mostly - SURPRISE! - a counter-meta play, something you love oh so much. And even then, is everything being won by Yveltal and/or Darkrai? Nah. There's plenty of variety in the top tables, with more to come with the next set release. That's how it's always been.

Also there will always be a meta in games that use bans and restrictions.

I know your type and I know your agenda. You want "non meta" decks to shine.



Final thought: Nintendo didn't ban Gallade or Gardevoir. They won't ban anything now. Probably not ever again.

 

[vaporeon]

My very first post in this thread amounts to "They won't do it." Why? Because they have no reason to. They have NO REASON to. NONE. NOT ONE. Not a SINGLE valid reason to do so. I shouldn't have to explain why.

And this thread's purpose is 100% purely you voicing your opinion and nothing else. It has no constructive purpose other than "QQ I hate these cards and want them banned because QQ", effectively.

Yes you should explain yourself if you're going to make claims on the behalf of someone. Yes this is my opinion but its one I posted reasons for why I fell the game is better off without these card. No amount of screaming it wont happen and putting your fingers in your ear wont change my argument if you dont back it up with solid evidence. My ONLY claim is the format is better off without these cards and Im willing to prove it if other can help me test it, which is something people here aren't willing to do.

Bans and restrictions should only be used in cases where the cards truly create an unhealthy format. In other words, a format where there is only one real option and that's about it. The only time Pokemon has EVER had to do this was NG Slowking and NG Sneasel. Slowking had to be banned because of a translation error (WotC hates HAAAAAATES errata), and Sneasel would've quite literally been in every single competitive deck if he was allowed at the time. Zero exceptions. There was quite literally NO reason ever to exclude 3 sneasel and 4 special dark energy in every deck list in the Neo block, which is legitimately unhealthy for the game since all games would just degenerate into sneasel wars.

Sneasel wars, Mewtwo wars, and Yveltal wars. Its all the same thing. Basic Pokemon doing high damage output with low energy requirements. There is also no reason for decks now to now play Mewtwo and or Yveltal in the same deck because of how cheap their cost are, which according to your own words, make them unhealthy for the game.

As good as Mewtwo EX is, it's never quite been auto-include, and unlike sneasel, the card does have drawbacks to being included in a deck, INCLUDING the fact that it counters itself. And the way Mewtwo was designed, format checks could be developed (including powerful attackers that discard a lot of energy, or attack very cost efficiently) - also very unlike Sneasel's "herp derp 200 damage here you go"

Mewtwo has always been an auto include in decks since it was released. It went away for a bit but was still strong but its back because people realized Mewtwo is still good. You have to respond to mewtwo with mewtwo or you'll be trading 4 prize cards for 2. Mewtwo also prevents evolution decks from being effective my making the game a 6 to 4 prize game from the start since the evolving basic is more than likely abandoned due to x ball and worth the investment. Yveltal does this better. On top of virbank laser, these cards do what Sneasel wish it could do.

Instead of using an unwieldy and frustrating ban/restriction list, Nintendo prefers evolving the format through a combination of new set releases, rotations, and each generation, some rules changes (and lately, errata but only at the start of a generation). The only deck that's really been dominant for far too long to some extent is Darkrai, and Yveltal did give it a heck of a boost going into the XY format, but so what? Even Yveltal decks don't all look the same, since some of the most recent successes have come from Yveltal/Garbodor rather than needing Darkrai as a crutch. And it's mostly - SURPRISE! - a counter-meta play, something you love oh so much. And even then, is everything being won by Yveltal and/or Darkrai? Nah. There's plenty of variety in the top tables, with more to come with the next set release. That's how it's always been.

I put things on the list because of how poor the game has been handled. They gave us a rotation but they REPRINTED every problem card to exist in the next format, making the rotation pointless. Now with the extended BW format, keeping EVERYTHING legal for events that use it, since its going to be sanctioned, a ban list is even more important. Also Nintendo is a company and they want to make money first and worry about everything else later. Printing a Pokemon with a 1 colorless attack cost for 200 damage on a basic makes them money. Making a full art of that cards makes the set sell. However in other games when something is so overpowered, its removed from the competitive play field.

The game right now is so bad that its core rules are corrupted with its evolution mechanic. Rather than fix the design of cards to allow evolution decks to work better, they just made evolved Pokemon as basic EX, removing the need to run 9 cards in your deck in the case of stage 2 Pokemon. Why use 15 cards (if you use 2 celebi ex) to play charizard when you can use 4 and use charizard EX? The list is to help make more decks viable and not the same decks with different techs.

 

[Tagrineth]

...except that evolution decks aren't dead, they are in the format. You literally have no idea what you're talking about WRT competitive pokemon and I don't feel any of your babbling has a leg to stand on.

 

[vaporeon]

...except that evolution decks aren't dead, they are in the format. You literally have no idea what you're talking about WRT competitive pokemon and I don't feel any of your babbling has a leg to stand on.

As of now, most evolution decks serve to assist big basics. Evolution decks that are based on evolved attackers suffer because of how fast and powerful the big basics are. They are a risky play in competitive because you need to hit a lot of cards at the right time and hope they dont get a bad juniper, consisting of 3 rare candy.

As for your second statement, what are you talking about?

 

[Tagrineth]

I'm saying I don't think you have any real qualifications to talk about the competitive pokemon format.