Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE states ruling

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Squirtle

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A friend of mine was playing in states this weekend.


He announced an attack with his Mew EX.He had a holon's magneton attached to his Mew EX and Crystal Beach in play. SO he didn't have the energy required to fulfil the attack. The judge made him END HIS TURN , He had a stadium in his hand. He wanted to play the stadium. The judge said he couldn't - which is the correct ruling. However forcing him to end his turn is NOT the ruling. Here is what the procedure should be:


1) Player A annouances an attack
2) The "Attacking step" is initiated
3) One or both players realize that player A cannot fulfill the requirements to attack
4) A judge reqinds the situation to where player A annouanced an attack he cannot power
5) PLayer A is allowed to name a different attack or end his turn


Simply forcing a player to end his turn is complete LUDIACRIS


using this logic , if I had a holons castform active and said DO THE WAVE My turn would end because I announced an attack I cannot power/have .

This player is owed an apology


~Silvestro
 
I thought you should be able to play stadiums too? If you can't attack, then it doesn't end your turn and you should be able to do whatever to finish your turn. Oh well.
 
Let's say I use mantine's d power.

I put 1 counter on because I figure that there is an energy in there, I look through my discard, and find no energy, so I can take the counter off because the power never actually happend.

Now, since it never happend, I could play holon adventurer and discard a basic energy, then use mantine, because it's power never happend in the first place!

If you are unable to do something, then you can not do it.
 
^The ruling (even if it was already decided by the higher-ups) has not logical reasoning.

I agree with Squirtle, but I must add: Ultimately, players need to pay attention to the game state to avoid things like this that people find so hard to rule on. Supporter discarding, Damage Counters/Status Markers, and simply checking for KO'd Pokemon are all things we need to pay attention to as there are many cases where games cannot be repaired, and the losing playing ends up winning because the winning player made an error. So please, for the sake of having the person that should win actually win, pay attention (both players!). Practice hard guys, these sort of things will continue to happen.
 
IMO, he should (at a bare minimum), get to announce an attack that had 1 colorless cost (if any existed in the field). It is up to discussion on whether you can rewind to the point of allowing other cards to be played (as in this example, the laying of the stadium to counter and allow attack then).

Keith
 
Lawman said:
IMO, he should (at a bare minimum), get to announce an attack that had 1 colorless cost (if any existed in the field). It is up to discussion on whether you can rewind to the point of allowing other cards to be played (as in this example, the laying of the stadium to counter and allow attack then).

Keith
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If there exists no ruling, I don't think there is really a discussion. My argument, simply put, whenever a card cannot be played, for example, Houndoom UF stopping Transceiver, the play is restarted to its original conditions. Now, less simply for clarity, in the case announcing an attack that is not a legal option, restart to the time when the attack was not announced. To say that "the attack was announced, he/she entered the attack phase" is not consistent with the game's mechanics. There exists no "Attack Phase", this is Pokemon, not Magic: The Gathering! Phases (or any other name for it) do not exist. Coming to an end, an illegal play is made and caught in time, RESTART to the conditions before it was made. Just because AFTER and attack is completed (or the player CHOOSES to pass) their turn is over, doesn't make announcing an attack any different than attaching an energy, Evolving, playing a Trainer or Supporter, Retreating... need I go on? They are all options to use at any point during your turn; Pokemon is phase free. Am I wrong?
 
My two cents: I played at SC States and my opponent announced an attack using Scramble Energy, but we were tied, so she couldn't do the attack. We called the judge over, and he ruled that she COULD attack using the Scramble as a Colorless Energy. I think that was a CORRECT call by the judge.

Now, if she said, I want to play a stadium also, I don't know if I would like that or not. If it were me, I would likely argue that since I didn't actually complete an attack, my turn isn't over, and I can do whatever would normally be legal during my turn. But I guess on my side of the table, I'd be thinking, You attacked, so you get to redo your attack but not go further back in time.
 
It is a nice discussion. At this point, we are taking the position that Pokemon is not phase free in the rulings at my events, and once you enter into the attack step, that is where you land.

If you do not have the energy to do the attack, you can choose another attack, and if none are available, then you do not have an attack option and your turn ends.

I have not seen a "PUI" answer on that one, but, given the number of events I judge, it would be my call from the big chair.

Vince
 
Tell me your friend was not playing at any of the States you played in.....
 
Of course, I lean toward Vince's opinion on this issue. Attacking is the LAST thing you do in your turn. You cannot attack then lay a stadium, play a Poke from hand to bench, etc. Do all you what to do in your turn, THEN attack. After attack, resolve between turns affects. Seems pretty simple to me, but, as Vince and I said, it is still up for discussion on "how far back" you rewind and what will be allowed. PUI hasn't shed any light on that direction. Methinks they are awaiting feedback from PCL.

Keith
 
First off, let's take this moment to review the order of attacking, because I feel it's relevant here:
http://www.pokemon-tcg.com/p_strategy/rulebooks/book_77.jsp#520

Now step a is not really relevant anymore, but read step b.

Order of Attacks said:
b) Announce which attack your Active Pokémon is using. Make sure your Pokémon has enough Energy attached to it to use this attack.
Click to expand...

But the Pokemon does not have enough Energy to use the attack, so step b could never take place. If you do not have the Energy, how do you attack? How do you get past step b? You don't. You never could.

Of course, I also think a lot of it is announcing which attack you're talking about. If you say "Knock it out" and you were referring to a second attack when you have only Energy for the first attack (and it is capable of knocking out the Defending Pokemon), you would have to use the first attack because you never gave a name to the attack. If you actually are announcing the attack that you wish to do (in compliance to the rules), then you can't fulfill the requirement to getting past step b.

Now, one possibility is to simply end the turn, because of the "do what you can" rule. To reiterate on a good point, here...

Flareon said:
My argument, simply put, whenever a card cannot be played, for example, Houndoom UF stopping Transceiver, the play is restarted to its original conditions.
Click to expand...

Transceiver could never be played in the first place. The card isn't discarded if you realize you can't play it; it's returned to your hand and the state is returned to before attempting to play the Transceiver (if searching had already taken place, a stronger penalty can be issued, though). The same should hold true for attacks. If you can't "play" it, you can't play it, and the game state never advanced through anything more than just spoken words (and again, if you started doing irreversable things before the problem was spotted, a more severe penalty has to be issued).

If I were judging that, I would have ruled that the game state be reversed to before the attack was announced, since no attack could be used in the first place. Plus, come on here, Spirit of the Game. But, I guess everyone has their opinions...
 
meganium45 said:
It is a nice discussion. At this point, we are taking the position that Pokemon is not phase free in the rulings at my events, and once you enter into the attack step, that is where you land.

If you do not have the energy to do the attack, you can choose another attack, and if none are available, then you do not have an attack option and your turn ends.

I have not seen a "PUI" answer on that one, but, given the number of events I judge, it would be my call from the big chair.

Vince
Click to expand...

But we have no defined "attack phase" in Pokemon. In other games, you say "I announce my attack phase," and proceed with your attack. Are you telling me if I draw my card and say "Do the Wave" my turn just ends? That doesn't make any sense.

By that same logic, if I say "I'm going to play a Copycat" and I don't have one in my hand, does that count as my supporter for the turn? If it doesn't, I don't see how trying to use an attack that you can't use can possibly count as your attack for the turn.

One's attack begins and ends when one announces an attack one can actually use.
 
Hey everyone...

My Call!!! I did make 1 error in the call that I realized later..I did not make it clear to that I was allowing him to make the lesser attack if possible. I goofed on that part... heat of the moment stuff...I admit it..things happen...move on...

BUT..the rest of the call had been discussed...debated and debated and debated and a definititive ruling had NEVER been issued...so I made the call that I thought was the right one based on the LEVEL OF PLAY.

The ruling I intended to make was that he could not go back and do other thiings, but he COULD have made a lesser attack if he had the energy available to do so.

SO...until a clear ruling is given from on high...when you are in this area....simply make sure you are paying attention to what you are doing.....mkay?

SO...now everyone who disagrees with this ruling should NOT ...I repeat NOT....bash me or any of the other judges who would have made the same call...Why don't you do something PRODUCTIVE and simply ask for a definite ruling and we can either change our stance on the call or continue to make it as we feel correct.


oh and Steve...I would have hope you would have PMed me about this ruling and allow me to explain the reason behind it prior to throwing me under the bus even though I wasn't named.

Thanks
Clay Mitchell....Said JUDGE of the Tournament
 
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Moss Factor said:
But we have no defined "attack phase" in Pokemon. In other games, you say "I announce my attack phase," and proceed with your attack. Are you telling me if I draw my card and say "Do the Wave" my turn just ends? That doesn't make any sense.
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I think there is a big problem with players not being specific with their actions. Someone could just say, "Do the wave" and the opponent would have to guess that they were using the attack. But if the game forced people to say stuff like, "I'm using the _____ attack," this problem wouldn't show up that much.

I'd say about your "do the wave" question, if you have a pokemon on the field that has the "do the wave" attack, and you draw a card and say, "do the wave", you have delcared an attack and your turn is now over with. If you don't have a pokemon on the field that can do the do the wave attack, then it means nothing when you say it. It kind of goes back to what the japanese were doing. I remember reading on this board about the japanese who had the rule where if you name an attack as your action and you cannot pay for it (energy costs), your turn ends. I think this is the same thing. You've delcared an attack and you cannot successfully pay for the attack to use it. So your turn is over. But I don't like it at all. I'd rather have the person be able to delcare another attack on the card if they can or end their turn.

But I think there is a problem with there not being any real phases in the game, and many players not being specific on what they are doing. Some players just say, "okay, your knocked out." That's crazy. You don't even know what they are doing or what attack they are using.
 
Bjj , no it wasn't at any of your events.

EDIT : Clay , I actually didn't know if was your event. Adam told me about this whole situation and I suppose had I actually thought about it I would have realized it was your event.
 
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This is an issue that's confused the crud out of everyone, including me, so I figured that there'd be no harm in going back to the basics to figure this one out :)

Keep in mind, I'm not taking sides in this argument, 'cause both are VERY valid, and in the end, it may actually need a black-and-white ruling on by the powers that be at POP:

Originally posted by Pokemon USA

1. If the Defending Pokémon is a Baby Pokémon, flip a coin to see if your turn ends without an attack. (If your turn ends without an attack, don't do any of the other steps. You're done now.)
2. Announce which attack your Active Pokémon is using. Make sure your Pokémon has enough Energy attached to it to use this attack.
3. If necessary, make any choices the attack requires you to make. (For example, Swampert's Water Arrow attack says "Choose one of your opponent's Pokémon." So you choose now.)
4. If necessary, do anything the attack requires you to do in order to use it. (For example, discard Energy cards, as in Camerupt's Fire Spin attack, which makes you discard 2 basic Energy cards attached to Camerupt in order to use it.)
5. If necessary, apply any effects that might alter or cancel the attack. (For example, if your Pokémon was hit last turn by Magmar ex's Smokescreen attack, that attack said that if you tried to attack with that Pokémon during your next turn, you should flip a coin. If tails, your Pokémon's attack does nothing.)
6. If your Active Pokémon is Confused, check now to see if the attack fails.
7. Do whatever the attack says. Do any damage first, then do any other effects, and finally, Knock Out any Pokémon that have damage greater than or equal to their Hit Points.
Click to expand...

All right, so here's how I see the definition of attack announcement being equivalent to your attack phase:

-1 looks like the main basis for the ruling of attack phase=illegal attack announcement. The baby power, while not a part of modified, is still a part of the game, so this definition of announcement vs actual attack is made in the fact that you should only announce your attack phase vs a baby. This might be Prof. Clay and Meganium45's justification, which is understandable.
-2, with the second sentence, "Make sure your Pokemon has enough Energy attached to it to us this attack" implies that if you didn't have enough energy, you _can_ take back the announcement altogether.
-3, 5, and 6 are completely irrelevent for discussion. 4 is only irrelevent because it talks about a different kind of cost (attack effect).
-7 implies that if you're going to "do whatever the attack says," then the end result of your attack phase would be using the attack you announced.

So...how DO you rule on this? While this advanced rule was never actually called a "phase," it probably is. My opinion on the issue, up until now, has been that announcing an illegal attack is the same as the trainscever/houndoom situation, or mumbling random gibberish. Can you play a transceiver against a houndoom? No. Is mumbling random gibberish considered an attack phase? No. However, the grey area to me is that the advanced rulebook seems to conflict itself, and because of that, there is no clear-cut answer! For now, it can be safely ruled either way, so just be sure to always say what you mean until a ruling's established! :redface:
 
Prof Clay said:
SO...until a clear ruling is given from on high...when you are in this area....simply make sure you are paying attention to what you are doing.....mkay?

SO...now everyone who disagrees with this ruling should NOT ...I repeat NOT....bash me or any of the other judges who would have made the same call...Why don't you do something PRODUCTIVE and simply ask for a definite ruling and we can either change our stance on the call or continue to make it as we feel correct.

Clay Mitchell....Said JUDGE of the Tournament
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I've asked and searched for a ruling in vain. You and Patriarch are right, we will have to wait until a Black & White ruling is made. Sadly, our own rule book is contradictory or, at the very least, unclear to many on this situation.

To the other statement I quoted, I hope you don't consider (especially) me, Squirtle, Moss Factor or any of the other's straight forwardness to be bashing. We know you don't have a B&W ruling and must make a decision. However, we (I think I can say we here) respectfully disagree and for the time being, since we don't have a ruling, all we can do is argue our points in the hopes they will be considered.

~Carlos
 
There have been discussions on this kind of issue on the Prof forums but no consensus has been reached.
Bottom line: Be aware of what you can and cannot do.
 
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