Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE states ruling

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Flareon said:
I've asked and searched for a ruling in vain. You and Patriarch are right, we will have to wait until a Black & White ruling is made. Sadly, our own rule book is contradictory or, at the very least, unclear to many on this situation.

To the other statement I quoted, I hope you don't consider (especially) me, Squirtle, Moss Factor or any of the other's straight forwardness to be bashing. We know you don't have a B&W ruling and must make a decision. However, we (I think I can say we here) respectfully disagree and for the time being, since we don't have a ruling, all we can do is argue our points in the hopes they will be considered.

~Carlos
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You can read the threads title where one might get the wrong impression:cool:
 
BIG discussion on the official forums about this.

I argued as strongly as I could for Pokemon not having phases but didn't sway the majority of posters on the forum. For me its either "can't happen didn't happen" or the attack fizzles. Personally I'm in the rewind as it can't happen camp but I believe I was in the minority on this.
So if I have to go with the majority for consistancy sake then the attack ought to fizzle :(

Moss where were you on the official forums.. http://forums.pokemon-tcg.com/showthread.php?t=2501
 
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In 2002, I played in a SBZ Tournament vs Kim Cary. I was playing Kingdra, he was using Enteicargo or some fire deck, I don't exactly remember. Anyways, I used an attack I did not have the proper energy for, we both didn't notice it and the game advanced to the next turn. We called a judge once he noticed and I was able to take back my move and use the other one (the one I had the energy cost requirement for). I'm not sure how I feel about someone using an attack they don't have energy for and then not being able to do something else. You can argue both ways, if a pokemon CANNOT attack, they just can't. There is no "attack phase" in pokemon. By that logic, you should be able to do anything else, including retreating and attacking with another pokemon, etc. IDK, this is a tough call. I'm really surprised it hasn't been brought up before, at least not that I know of.
 
At UK Nationals, my opponent declared an attack he could not use...

Me said:
Juuuuudge!
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Judge said:
He cannot use the other attack.
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I think an attack phase makes perfect sense and should exist as calculations are done in a specific linear order
 
oh! I wonder who said that last year... I'll have to have a quiet word before this years UK nationals.

[Just because something makes sense to us as players doesn't make it so]
 
Here's a situation of similar nature. I haven't seen it, just imagining.

If you have a one Heracross out with Shining Horn, and your opponent has, say Mew up front, and tries to attack, the attack doesn't "fail" it just never occurred. So, then, the opponent gets to do what? Announce a different attack from Mew? Retreat and hit with an evolved Pokemon? Play a trainer? My opinion in that situation is that only Mew should be allowed to attack since we are actually in an "attack phase" although some might say no such phase exists.

Opinions?
 
Sorry Adam, but I agree with the ruling given. You announce the attack, check to see if you have the energy required, if you don't then your attack failed and your turn is still over.

That would be my ruling.
 
KingGengar said:
Here's a situation of similar nature. I haven't seen it, just imagining.

If you have a one Heracross out with Shining Horn, and your opponent has, say Mew up front, and tries to attack, the attack doesn't "fail" it just never occurred. So, then, the opponent gets to do what? Announce a different attack from Mew? Retreat and hit with an evolved Pokemon? Play a trainer? My opinion in that situation is that only Mew should be allowed to attack since we are actually in an "attack phase" although some might say no such phase exists.

Opinions?
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Shining horn (at least on Skarmory) says they cannot even attack... just like Houndoom UF says you cannot play a trainer. Even if we HAD an attack phase, Skarmory/other lame basics would prevent you from ever being able to enter it, thus allowing a player to do whatever else they wanted. Am I right?
 
Ah, but if you "announce" the attack, have you not truly entered "attack phase?" Do you then get to regress to the "pre-attack phase?" Again, assuming there is such a thing in Pokemon as "attack phase."
 
But if you announce an attack you cannot use, how can you actually be entering the attack phase?

Again, if I announce I'm going to play a specific supporter and don't have it in my hand, does that stop me from playing supporters for the turn?
 
Moss Factor said:
But if you announce an attack you cannot use, how can you actually be entering the attack phase?

Again, if I announce I'm going to play a specific supporter and don't have it in my hand, does that stop me from playing supporters for the turn?
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Again Moss, its the interpretation of whether or not there are Phases in Pokemon...there is no supporter phase, but if one reads the rule book, the final step or phase mentioned is ATTACK. We interpret the announcement of an attack as entering the ATTACK Phase. Other places may not make this ruling, but it is the one we have discussed and agreed upon...especially for high level tournament play.

Still waiting on a definitive ruling on it...we can discuss it forever here, but it will not do much good. As Pokepop stated, we have had a large discussion on the Professor boards for months on the topic with no resolution.
 
I have to say, I agree with the ruling as well. The attack was declared. This meant that the player wanted to attack and was finished with all the other steps of his turn. It seems like after he realized that Crystal Beach was in play, he wanted to then play his stadium to change the outcome of the turn.

I applaud you Prof. Clay.

Good Call!
 
Strange thing that what happened here is basically the same thing that happened in the thread I started on the professor boards. Will this continue onto Regionals, then to Battle Road, then to Nationals then finally get an answer at World's?
 
Moss Factor said:
Again, if I announce I'm going to play a specific supporter and don't have it in my hand, does that stop me from playing supporters for the turn?
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Now, this is a different scenario, as I see it, as the Supporter is not truly "played" until it touches the table, and you LET GO (this is the method that I believe should be used in tournaments.. the "touch rule"). Merely announcing something does not make it so. For example, does muttering out loud, "... play my Copycat..." constitute an act of play, or an allowed thought process? The same should apply if someone muttered, "...Do the Wave..." Is the common practice of speaking out loud considered now "announcing?" I don't think so.

There is a difference between the Supporter and the Attack. Even if one were to say to the opponent, "I play Celio's" but no Celio's touched the table, does your opponent have the right to see your hand to make sure you DON'T have a Celio's? I don't think so.

With an attack, knowledge is already on the table. If opponent announce, "Do the Wave," he has literally "done the Wave."

But, as you say, what if the Wave is unable to be done? First, let's dispense with the absurd. If opponent's Active Pokemon doesn't do the Wave, then he's done nothing except been ridiculous, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Second, more to the point, what if opponent doesn't have the right energy? Is his turn over? MAYBE.

Opponent certainly has announced (even if not verbally), "I attack with Furrett, and do the Wave." Simply because opponent cannot do the Wave doesn't meant that he hasn't (in some manner) announced that he's attacking with Furrett.

Further, if an opponent has Furrett Active with NO Energy, and announces Do the Wave, isn't he truly done with his turn? Basically, hasn't he passed? I mean, I've had people say to me, "Zap with Raichu" when they had no energy, and their MEANING was, "Your turn."

What if someone announces "Do the Wave" without proper energy and I just draw a card because they obviously can't do the Wave? Am I to be penalized because I went forward with the game?

Yes, I understand there is SOTG also, and one should say, "You can't do that." But then where is their SOTG? Shouldn't they say, "OK, your turn." But if they want to be competitive, don't I have that right also? In a tournament then, being competitive, shouldn't I simply draw my card after opponent announces his attack which he can't do?

If opponent says, "Hey what about damage?" isn't it competitively legal (but not SOTG) to say, "Sorry, you don't have the energy for that attack" so we're moving forward?

I'm sorta taking both sides here, but let's see where it goes.
 
I would say that I agree with moza, FS, and Moss on this issue.

However, at the next premiere event I head judge, I will be thinking of ways to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
meganium45 said:
I have not seen a "PUI" answer on that one
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Just like the "when a card is considered played" debate, they give us some gray to work in, and I find that to be a good thing.
 
I can say Elemental blast as much as I want, but it does me no good if I couldn't even declare it in te first place.

If the player said "I am going to use such and such attack" and did not have the energy, then all of that never took place.

If the player only said "Attack", then he would attack with whatever he had the energy for.

In the example with mew ex, it could use CFF from plusle, mew had the energy for that.

Depends on what the player said.
 
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