A response to those wanting details on decks played

[PokePop]

Xicious: Are you not listening on purpose or is there a problem?
No one, again, no one, is talking about someone publishing someone else's deck list.
Or even making someone publish their own deck list.

Do you consider one single card in your deck the deck list?

I'm going to lock this if it keeps coming back to this straw man argument.

 

[NoPoke]

I don't know which approach is right or wrong. I believe that winners deck lists are routinely published in Norway and Finland. So maybe its a cultural thing?

Team play is likely to increase reticence to publish details: the deck list being no longer 'owned' by a single individual.

FWIW I think that the present format is somewhat to blame. Games don't seem to last long enough for player skill to be the major determinant of eventual outcome. The first few cards and flips deciding the eventual outcome. So with player skill taking a bit of a back seat in the format any and all other advantages become jealously guarded.

 

[beatlerat]

Because we are given the right to disclose information from PUI does not mandate that we do so.

I feel that a number of players feel that their deck, which they have worked hard on, is their property and they should have the right to reveal, or fail to reveal that deck. I also realize, that the moment they turn the decklist in, they have given away a part of their right of secrecy. It is, in reality, their only "cost" of attending an event.

Vince,
What would stop a TO, or PTO for that matter, from sharing the decklists from a tournament with say, members of their own family? Would it be OK to 'SHARE' that information with whomever they wish, or a select group of people, but NOT publish it?

but until PUI would mandate that all TOs collect the winning decklists and either publish them, or send them in to PUI, I will keep my policy.

Does this mean that you would not share a deck list with anyone, or even read them? Just curious.

BTW, I am for NOT publishing lists, but I am concerned about who has access to some of those lists, and THAT may not be fair to the players.

 

[the_sniper]

Vince,
What would stop a TO, or PTO for that matter, from sharing the decklists from a tournament with say, members of their own family? Would it be OK to 'SHARE' that information with whomever they wish, or a select group of people, but NOT publish it?

Does this mean that you would not share a deck list with anyone, or even read them? Just curious.

BTW, I am for NOT publishing lists, but I am concerned about who has access to some of those lists, and THAT may not be fair to the players.

QFT!!!!

Best post I've read so far on this topic( especially the last sentence!).

And ALL very valid questions!

The rest of this nonsense doesn't bother me a bit. I think ALL decklists should remain private.

This isn't nascar or the nfl- we DON'T need the parody those sports have. Put the time in, read
the cards and figure it out.

This isn't rocket science folks.........

 

[Lawman]

Lets put it this way Beatlerat, if someone (PTO) wanted to let a family member SEE the decklists, they could. With that being said, I dont think a single PTO that I know of would do that! First of all, it is against our agreement to put on these tourneys. We are required to place the decklists in an area away from others. Keep the lists ourselves, and IF PUI needed to see something, we can give it to them.

So, the simple answer to that is NO, we cannot share decklists w/ family members or others.

Keith

 

[DarkJake]

Lets put it this way Beatlerat, if someone (PTO) wanted to let a family member SEE the decklists, they could. With that being said, I dont think a single PTO that I know of would do that! First of all, it is against our agreement to put on these tourneys. We are required to place the decklists in an area away from others. Keep the lists ourselves, and IF PUI needed to see something, we can give it to them.

So, the simple answer to that is NO, we cannot share decklists w/ family members or others.

Keith

Considering this topic has been made, I say you're giving too much credit to a few PTOs.

 

[beatlerat]

Steve A: That rule just means we CAN post the info, not that we HAVE to.

Keith,
So you can post the info publicly.

So, the simple answer to that is NO, we cannot share decklists w/ family members or others.

You just can't share it with family members or others????? What are you saying? Again, my concern is with who is holding the lists.

 

[Lawman]

Beatlerat: Reread the rule that Pokedaddy/Steve A cited. It says PTOs/TOs etc CAN publish a list or info from said list (ie when noting who won with what) to the PUBLIC. I would never show a decklist to my son from any tourney I run. Showing a decklist that player A submitted to play in one of my tourneys to any other player is not allowed. Period. That would not be to "the public". It would be in private. Think of this rule as a "sunshine law" ie gov't must act in public, not in private.

Dark Jake: That is a strong comment to make......care to share which PTO(s) you are throwing under the bus with that blanket statement???!! Real easy and not too mature to throw an allegation like that out w/o backing it up with some PROOF. I take my job w/ PUI very seriously, as every other PTO I know does!

Keith

 

[DarkJake]

Yeah that comment of yours started off as a pretty good pwn but the last sentence is illogical...maybe next time. Anyway, the only reason I made my comment is because this topic has so many posts discussing what you so quickly say doesn't exist, obviously at least a general fear of this action exists otherwise it wouldn't get as blown off topic as this. For the record, I don't blame anyone directly, but still you are giving PTOs as a whole way too much credit by making it seem like every judge who acheived this rank under the sun is amazing, there's multiple topics on this very board about judges' inability and just generally being biased, and while most of the judges I've been in contact with (Vince, Clay, Bernie13, Evil Psyduck, Rich, others) have been amazing, there were about the same amount that made me raise an eyebrow. I don't have to give you a list of them because those topics where their names are revealed don't go anywhere besides other fellow judges basically saying "olol they messed up but I believe in them so be quiet you silly elitist" or something in that regard.

 

[Lawman]

Jake: I edited the last 2 sentences out bc the message is better without it. Bottom line, you are confusing "bad calls" with revealing decklists. Two completely different topics!! Yes, I know there have been some "poor" calls made. But, those "judges" dont have the decklists to spill the beans on either.

When I judge for Reg's, Nats or Worlds, I am too busy doing deck checks to even try to remember the contents of any one deck I check. I do my checks and turn the lists in....then they are out of my hands. On the tourneys I run, once the tourney is over, they go in a sealed manilla envelope at my office. My wife doesnt even know where they are, much less my son.

Keith

 

[DarkJake]

But that's what I'm saying, you should definitely expect every judge to be as efficient as yourself but you'd be totally ignorant to actually think that everyone is, and besides who would know except those family/friends that had the lists revealed to them, who in turn would have little to no evidence to turn that person in even if for some reason they did want to do the world some justice, I'm simply presenting how easy it is to do this and psh the judge could be the best judge when it comes to rulings and being fair, but how could you tell if they sealed their deck lists in a master enveloped or typed them up and sent them to a friends' list.

 

[Lawman]

PUI doesn't just hand out PTOships to people on the street corner Jake. They do get to know a person before they do that. PUI does a pretty bang up job there.

I will admit this....it is POSSIBLE for a PTO do leak lists to friends/family. I just have more faith and trust in them than you seem to have. Do you think Vince or Clay shares lists their their kids?? Nope....those kids are just plain GOOD. You get that way from playing and playing and playing multiple years.

Keith

 

[DarkJake]

PUI doesn't just hand out PTOships to people on the street corner Jake. They do get to know a person before they do that. PUI does a pretty bang up job there.

I will admit this....it is POSSIBLE for a PTO do leak lists to friends/family. I just have more faith and trust in them than you seem to have. Do you think Vince or Clay shares lists their their kids?? Nope....those kids are just plain GOOD. You get that way from playing and playing and playing multiple years.

Keith

Ok, so we ultimately agree
And I won't answer the bolded statement because too many people will get angry with me (and no I wasn't about to say "olol ya they do look at dem listz")

I also question the job that PUI does on their PTOships considering I know a guy who got it fairly easily and he never does nothing (I think he lost it or he quit now so thank god) and his rulings were always wrong.

 

[I am Entei]

You learn the other decks by observing and playing the people. Plain and simple. I see at the tournaments, we go to, older brothers and sisters and parents scouting for their children and reporting back. Nothing wrong with that as its done in sports and other competitions. I do have an issue with someone publishing someone's whole deck as a malicious act but giving a pokemon or 2 should not be an issue. Remember it's the responsibilty of everyone here to grow the game (and isn't that the point of the Pokegym?) or else it dies. You can have the greatest deck in the world but if you have noone to play..what's the use?

 

[Lawman]

You learn the other decks by observing and playing the people. Plain and simple. I see at the tournaments, we go to, older brothers and sisters and parents scouting for their children and reporting back. Nothing wrong with that as its done in sports and other competitions. I do have an issue with someone publishing someone's whole deck as a malicious act but giving a pokemon or 2 should not be an issue. Remember it's the responsibilty of everyone here to grow the game (and isn't that the point of the Pokegym?) or else it dies. You can have the greatest deck in the world but if you have noone to play..what's the use?

You bring up an issue that is not part of this topic.....scouting. This is already covered in the rules disallowing players from watching other matches once theirs is completed. Likewise, spectators cannot "scout" either. I suggest you reread (or read for the 1st time) the rules and resources at the op website, especially the one on "spectators". Now, sometimes, a location will not allow a PTO. TO the opportuntity to clear the playing area out. But, if you can, you need to....dem da rules!

For the record, an opponent of a player can ALWAYS mention who they played and WHAT they played in their report!

Keith

PS I know that scouting happens and it is hard to stop anyone from talking outside, prior to a top cut match up, etc. We just need to work on applying the spectator rule better when we can.

 

[I am Entei]

I know it's sort of off topic and I know the rules but I have seen no enforcement except at the Nationals/Worlds and I know it's hard to enforce. Thanks for the reply Lawman.

 

[SteveP]

...... I think ALL decklists should remain private.

This isn't nascar or the nfl- we DON'T need the parody those sports have. Put the time in, read the cards and figure it out.

This isn't rocket science folks.........

I agree that Pokemon isn't rocket science. Most decent players can look at the core Pokemon and figure out the rest, minus a few techs based on the local metagame. And, that's where I can understand apprehension by PTOs, judges, and players to reveal decklists (to keep their techs secret). Nevertheless, there should be NO apprehension to reveal the core Pokemon in winning decks AFTER the event.

This past weekend, my kid played straight Blissey. At least two players showed up with anti-Blissey, anti-Mario decks (Mismageous and some other Ghost). Had my kid teched a few Fighting energy instead of all Fire, he would've won the tournament (he got 2nd to JossR's Mismageous). This is a classic example of players trying to out-tech each other - where I can understand the "desire" to keep decklists "under wraps" for a bit.

However, some have expressed it's a "right" for a player to keep a decklist private. I don't recall ever signing an agreement that requires me to "control" or "burn" a decklist after the tournament is over. In fact, if a player comes up to me and asks for his/her decklist back after the tournament, I'll "flat out" say no!

Decklists are NOT protected by some constitutional law!

 

[Lawman]

SteveP: You have to just say NO to returning the decklists. The PTO has to keep them, in case PUI needs them for some reason.

Keith

 

[SteveP]

SteveP: You have to just say NO to returning the decklists. The PTO has to keep them, in case PUI needs them for some reason.

Keith

Yeah, that would probably be my response if the player asked me "why." The decklists are part of the tournament records that POP requires PTOs to keep for a year.

 

[Expert Ty]

PUI doesn't just hand out PTOships to people on the street corner Jake. They do get to know a person before they do that. PUI does a pretty bang up job there.

I will admit this....it is POSSIBLE for a PTO do leak lists to friends/family. I just have more faith and trust in them than you seem to have. Do you think Vince or Clay shares lists their their kids?? Nope....those kids are just plain GOOD. You get that way from playing and playing and playing multiple years.

Keith

Then if it is "possible" for even ONE competitor within the format to have access to "public" information that could give that competitor an edge within the format, the PTO should make every effort to ensure that ALL players within the format have that same access. I do not expect a PTO with decklists in their possession to hide those lists when one of their children comes near, but as soon as that child has seen even part of one list every other player should be afforded the same opportunity. Any person should be able to walk up to the TO's table, point at a competitor in the field, and ask for that player's decklist at any time during or after the tournament's conclusion (within reason, of course). The decklist in question should be produced promptly and courteously, and the person who requested it should be given time to copy the list by hand if they so desire.
I am in no way, shape, or form accusing anyone of any unscrupulous behavior, but I have to admit that the appearance is there if even ONE PTO with a child/friend/spouse who plays refuses to disclose a single decklist when asked.