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About Adam and Eve...

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V_For_Vendetta

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They disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Right and Wrong). So, yes..... Right?
Just one problem. How could Adam and Eve have been expected to comprehend the implications of their actions if, prior to their indiscretion, they had no concept of wrong, evil, punishment, suffering, pain, and death?
Even if God had been successful inadequately explaining all of these concepts and the distinction between right and wrong to them beforehand, this means that he would have had to have given them knowledge of good and evil anyway, which turns this entire story into one big ridiculous farce.

Am I missing something? Please tell me if I am, our Pastor couldn't give us an answer when me and a few friends went to church and asked him a few questions.
 
I suppose "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil " is just a name. That's all it is. The tree needed a name and that's what He gave it.
 
Who cares if they didn't know about good and evil, right and wrong?

God TOLD them NOT to do it. He gave them a whole paradise but had that one rule. They were to obey him, as their father and creater. Obviously as the higher power he had knowledge [and they knew nothing] so they needed to have faith and trust in his word.

Again, he told them not to do it.
 
I'm sure there were other rules. They couldn't kill one another, right?
 
PuRpLe said:
Who cares if they didn't know about good and evil, right and wrong?

God TOLD them NOT to do it. He gave them a whole paradise but had that one rule. They were to obey him, as their father and creater. Obviously as the higher power he had knowledge [and they knew nothing] so they needed to have faith and trust in his word.

Again, he told them not to do it.
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Telling a human built with curiosity not to do something without giving reason or justification is the same as telling them to do it.

If God is all knowing, then surely he knew that humanity would succum to the inhierent weakness that he placed inside of us.

In any case, God allowed for the existance of evil by not wiping it out. Why give your followers the chance to disobey when they would be doing that of which they do not understand? Why not simply NOT place the tree there, and everything is peachy.

The only conclusion I can draw is that God meant for the apple to be eaten, and he meant for Adam and Eve to be exiled from paradise. In other words, God set them up.
 
I always wondered why he kept the tree in the area of Adam and Eve. Why not keep it in heaven, where it should have stayed. Any evil being could have eaten from the tree with it sitting out in the open.
 
For free will to exist, a way to screw up has to exist. Also, knowing something will happen is not the same as willing it to happen.
 
Professor_Chris said:
For free will to exist, a way to screw up has to exist. Also, knowing something will happen is not the same as willing it to happen.
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Excuse me?
So because God gave us free will, he needs to find a way to screw us up for all of eternity because he decided to put a tree there knowing that the inhierent flaw of free will would eventually lead humanity to take from the tree, with or without Satan's influence?
Why should a way to screw up exist? And if he wanted us to be thrown out of paradise to eventually die and live in an imperfect world, why create us to be in a perfect world in the first place?

And as for your second point, yes it is. Placing a child with in front of an open electrical socket, giving him a butter knife, and telling him not to stick the knife in the hole of which if perfectly fits in without explaining what will happen or why he shouldn't is the exact same thing as placing the knife in his hand and forcing it into the electrical socket, except now you can say "I did nothing, the socket was there, it is his fault".

God basically created evil and placed humanity in a position of which they would be affected by it and be tainted with it.
Why exactly would an loving benevolent God do this again?
 
God did not want us to be mindless automatons. He wanted us to have a choice, to decide between right and wrong, and to have our own minds. Quite frankly, I love this about Him. You can live among evil, you can be born with evil, you can recognize evil, and you can choose to either indulge in it or be independent of it. You have a choice in everything, and life is almost like a test of what you will do with this personal power. If you make the right choices, if you rise above evil, you will become pure after death. I'm not really sure if I am making much sense within the context of what you are asking, but I think I am hitting what you want to know with Adam and Eve.

And he didn't "screw us up for all eternity." He gave us freedom, and you also have a way out of this **** on Earth if you believe in him and lead a good life (to put it simply).
 
Water Pokemon Master said:
God did not want us to be mindless automatons. He wanted us to have a choice, to decide between right and wrong, and to have our own minds. Quite frankly, I love this about Him. You can live among evil, you can be born with evil, you can recognize evil, and you can choose to either indulge in it or be independent of it. You have a choice in everything, and life is almost like a test of what you will do with this personal power. If you make the right choices, if you rise above evil, you will become pure after death. I'm not really sure if I am making much sense within the context of what you are asking, but I think I am hitting what you want to know with Adam and Eve.
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You didn't explain anything.
Benevolent God:
-God wants followers to live in Paradise: do not place Tree in Eden, it might cause that little glitch you put in humanity to make them want to eat the fruit.
-God wants followers who experience pain and live with imperfection: do not place humanity in Paradise, this way they will know how to live with imperfection, and will not be whistful for "the good old days", when a person long ago did something they didn't understand and they are bieng pnushed for it

Seems simple, yet he placed the tree there. Which is the question you did not answer, why was the tree placed there.

Water Pokemon Master said:
And he didn't "screw us up for all eternity." He gave us freedom, and you also have a way out of this **** on Earth if you believe in him and lead a good life (to put it simply).
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A just, loving, and secure god would realise that simply not believing in him is NOT a crime worthy of hellfire. Thats the equivelant of a father endlessly punishing his children because they did not grow up to be exactly what he envisioned, its silly.

And a way out of this **** on Earth? Why the heck would he put us here in the first place then? What exactly did I do to deserve that? And don't give me that original sin BS, I find it abhorrent that a newborn baby is considered to be dirty with sin. This makes a complete mockery of true morality, which requires both an understanding of right and wrong, and that individual's wilful intention to do wrong, in order to determine immorality.
 
V_For_Vendetta said:
Excuse me?
So because God gave us free will, he needs to find a way to screw us up for all of eternity because he decided to put a tree there knowing that the inhierent flaw of free will would eventually lead humanity to take from the tree, with or without Satan's influence?
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You cannot exercise free will without a choice to do wrong. There is no virtue in doing right without the option to not do right.
 
God did not want robots that had no free will, so he put that tree there to give them choice of obeying or not to obey.
Thus creating free will.
 
While there are some circumstances in the Bible that are hard to comprehend, I do not believe this is one of them. God allowed Satan(in snake form) to exist in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve. He reasoned with them and tricked them into eating from it. I guess at this point they may have been sponges, taking in whatever was said to them.
 
I never understood how one could commit good or evil if one doesn't have knowledge about good/evil. Unintentional goodness isn't really goodness- and neither is unintentional evil.

Oh well. I'm a fan of causal determination anyways, so this free will nonsense doesn't ever make sense to me.
 
Even if we assume that Adam and Eve were faultless due to ignorance at the time of eating the fruit, they gained understanding about their actions afterward and chose to attempt to hide what they had done from God. Additionally, since they now had understanding of their wrongdoing, they had to receive punishment; otherwise, they might be inclined to believe that they could do whatever they wished without consequence. Not to mention that God, being just, was duty-bound to back up his promise.
 
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The problem I have with the story eating from the tree is quite different. Free will, knowing evil to eat from the tree, etc. I'm fine with, it makes sense.

My problem is: what criteria/reasons did they use in deciding to eat from the tree, in general the entire concept of free thought. God either made them with selfish intentions, or not. If the latter, they would not have eaten from the tree. If the former, then God decided for them. If God made them "neutral" then that is a Buridan's paradox situation. I guess it's just what you accept as a miracle, alongside the other concepts of God if you believe. Doesn't make sense, but it doesn't need to.
 
Magic_Umbreon said:
My problem is: what criteria/reasons did they use in deciding to eat from the tree, in general the entire concept of free thought.
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They didn't decide to eat from the tree. Eve was simply Tempted by Satan into doing so. So pretty much she didn't know any better, Satan used temptation, and she ate from the tree

V_For_Vendetta said:
The only conclusion I can draw is that God meant for the apple to be eaten, and he meant for Adam and Eve to be exiled from paradise. In other words, God set them up.
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Exactly. God had set them up because it was all part of his Plan, The Plan, to have them exiled from the Garden of Eden, He wanted them to truly experience Life (Pain, Hardship, and test us to see if we could make the right choices to return to him someday), so he had them exiled from the Garden.

There you go, there is your dosage of Mormon Proselyting for the day
 
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