Africa

[Prof Clay]

Ryan,

At the core of it, you have a great point that more should be done to help the people of Africa. They are deserving and have the right to all the things that everyone else in the world has access to.
People from every country should do more to help their fellow man no matter their geographical location.

But then there are the realities that accompany this.

One of my friends who teaches AP History in Norway has a saying which applies to all humans...
"People want stuff"..this is generally the root of all conflicts around the world since the dawn of time.

Africa is not culturally inferior in anyway to the rest of the world...their cultures are their culture. Unfortunately they have a culture and tradition of the strong exploiting the weak as do we. The strong have always been the ones who control the resources...and they tend to TAKE control of any incoming resources to their areas. We do have organizations which go into areas and upgrade their water and food technology.

How far do we as Americans take it?

Do you put yourself or other people in danger to implement these plans to feed them?

Do we go into these countries with a history of tribal violence and impose peace upon them? It worked well for about 100 years when the Europeans took control and forced them to behave at gunpoint (and as you mentioned, they stripped the continents resources for their own use)...once European rule left, the people reverted back to their own social groups and pre-European conflicts.

Were the people of Africa in better shape over all when they had governments run by Europe? Some might argue yes, others no.

We can feed people, we can educate people, we can be nice to people, but we cannot tell them what to believe or how to treat each other.

We help where we can. We can do more..but what we do has to be more effective than simply handing out food to hungry people, eventually a system in that country has to arise that will enable them to support themselves or fail.

Good topic, but I would ask you to be less kneejerk reactive to what people say that might offend you and simply take their points to heart and not judge them...their opinions are their opinions, as valid as your own.

 

[ryanvergel]

Why would you not want to applaud.

Applause is, in most instances, articulated appreciation. Mankind yearns for appreciation beyond even the meatiest feast.

Ergo, your applause for others will promote goodwill among your immediate peers,and then, in a convoluted way, lead to people actually caring about Africa on a children's message board.

It might just work...

lol Ketts, it just might!

If we believe hard enough

 

[ryanvergel]

So we should invade and give the people their freedom, right?

You can diss my pokegymreader length aid-is-orientalism view all you want bro, but when it comes down to "helping" other parts of the world in a practical, applied sense, history teaches us that it inevitably involves military invasion, missionary work, or "civilizing."

Can we create some sort of french fry dropping drone? Because if that can be done, I'm all for it.

A freedom fry dropping drone, maybe.

 

[ryanvergel]

Ryan,

At the core of it, you have a great point that more should be done to help the people of Africa. They are deserving and have the right to all the things that everyone else in the world has access to.
People from every country should do more to help their fellow man no matter their geographical location.

But then there are the realities that accompany this.

One of my friends who teaches AP History in Norway has a saying which applies to all humans...
"People want stuff"..this is generally the root of all conflicts around the world since the dawn of time.

Africa is not culturally inferior in anyway to the rest of the world...their cultures are their culture. Unfortunately they have a culture and tradition of the strong exploiting the weak as do we. The strong have always been the ones who control the resources...and they tend to TAKE control of any incoming resources to their areas. We do have organizations which go into areas and upgrade their water and food technology.

How far do we as Americans take it?

Do you put yourself or other people in danger to implement these plans to feed them?

Do we go into these countries with a history of tribal violence and impose peace upon them? It worked well for about 100 years when the Europeans took control and forced them to behave at gunpoint (and as you mentioned, they stripped the continents resources for their own use)...once European rule left, the people reverted back to their own social groups and pre-European conflicts.

Were the people of Africa in better shape over all when they had governments run by Europe? Some might argue yes, others no.

We can feed people, we can educate people, we can be nice to people, but we cannot tell them what to believe or how to treat each other.

We help where we can. We can do more..but what we do has to be more effective than simply handing out food to hungry people, eventually a system in that country has to arise that will enable them to support themselves or fail.

Good topic, but I would ask you to be less kneejerk reactive to what people say that might offend you and simply take their points to heart and not judge them...their opinions are their opinions, as valid as your own.

I can definitely be less kneejerk, but I definitely don't agree that some people's opinions are valid, because that is ridiculous. Their statements are not bound by logical and rational though, so their opinions are not valid.

 

[Articjedi]

So we should invade and give the people their freedom, right?

Of course not, don't put words in my mouth. But if you want to advocate invasion, go ahead.

 

[ryanvergel]

Of course not, don't put words in my mouth. But if you want to advocate invasion, go ahead.

Don't worry, I got the same reception. Apparently, when one says we OUGHT TO HELP, that is the same as saying we ought to spread, invade, and dominate.

Where that illogical jump is made, I don't really know. Why it is made makes even less sense to me.

 

[mine is cooler]

I find this subject on Africa to be quite.. Fun

I ask you one single question sir.

How will donations help their status?

Well I live in Michigan, I'm almost 100% certain that if you, ryan, went door to door asking people if they would donate 5$ to Africa charity, you might get a few doors slammed in your face.

Another question.
Why help Africa?
Oh yeah you can say kids are suffering and blah blah, but honestly, without the Internet to tell you all of this would you care? No.

Racism is a stupid defence on a subject that is 50% white 50% black. So if I say blacks in Africa live in mud huts in the jungle and eat monkeys that they spear out of trees I'm a racist? A fact is a fact.

Sure though.. I mean good luck modernizing an entire continent off of donations. But sorry it will never happen.

If Africa is such a poverty filled, aids ridden, death trap then why do the people stay?
Are you suggesting now that we just say "hey we don't like how you live, so here's a coffee maker and a bowl of powdered mush to get you threw this week"?

Also I don't think you realize the sheer magnatude of how much "donation money" we would need.
You said some 800million died in a year correct?

Um how many people are we trying to save here?



Conclusion:
Why try to help something that can't be saved?
And don't say donating 20$ to a charity is the answer.

 

[Articjedi]

Someone remind me, did Ryan ever say to donate?

 

[ryanvergel]

Racism is a stupid defence on a subject that is 50% white 50% black. So if I say blacks in Africa live in mud huts in the jungle and eat monkeys that they spear out of trees I'm a racist? A fact is a fact.

It's a fact that you are racist and ignorant.

If Africa is such a poverty filled, aids ridden, death trap then why do the people stay?

I guess when people are POOR they don't have the means to move.

Also I don't think you realize the sheer magnatude of how much "donation money" we would need.
You said some 800million died in a year correct?

No. I said at least that many people each year suffer from chronic malnutrition. This is CHRONIC by the way, not temporary, which many more millions live through.

h yeah you can say kids are suffering and blah blah, but honestly, without the Internet to tell you all of this would you care? No.

Yeah, I would. You're just assuming, for no real reason since you don't know me at all, what I would or would not care about.

Why try to help something that can't be saved?

I don't know. I'm trying so hard to help you and other ignorant people like you be saved from your own racist biases, but I am failing. You are right thought, why SHOULD I try to save you from your own ignorance?


I'm not an idiot. I know everyone dumping donation money isn't a real solution. However, it may be possible that donations could go toward developing real infrastructure and real, PERMANENT, change.

 

[mine is cooler]

haha Ryan I for got to tell you a small detail about my self.

I am black.

So I'm racist against my own race?

I think being a racist and standing up for what you believe in are two different things.

Help yourself befor others. If you have extra help others. But middle class America cannot be held accountable for an entire continents well being.

Also think of this. If we just gave away food what would that do to our community? Food prices would sky rocket.
The price of milk, corn, and beef are getting more and more expencive by the month. Not steeply but gradually.

Africa has more then enough resourses to support them selves. (diamond deposits, agriculture) but people are starving and dying of disease. Aids is a huge killer in Africa, one of the biggest acually. There is no cure for aids last time I checked.

Believe me, if I could cure Africa of all ailments I would. But I can't, no one can.

 

[ryanvergel]

haha Ryan I for got to tell you a small detail about my self.

I am black.

So I'm racist against my own race?

I think being a racist and standing up for what you believe in are two different things.

Help yourself befor others. If you have extra help others. But middle class America cannot be held accountable for an entire continents well being.

Also think of this. If we just gave away food what would that do to our community? Food prices would sky rocket.
The price of milk, corn, and beef are getting more and more expencive by the month. Not steeply but gradually.

Africa has more then enough resourses to support them selves. (diamond deposits, agriculture) but people are starving and dying of disease.
This makes sense. If it had agriculture why would so many people be starving?

Aids is a huge killer in Africa, one of the biggest acually. There is no cure for aids last time I checked.
Sure isn't. However, there are medicines that help people with HIV/AIDS in a variety of ways.

Believe me, if I could cure Africa of all ailments I would. But I can't, no one can.

Who cares what color you are? You're making blanket assumptions about a group of people, a different culture, and through these biases and assumptions deem them less deserving of things such as food.

You're promoting racist thoughts.

Also think of this. If we just gave away food what would that do to our community? Food prices would sky rocket.
The price of milk, corn, and beef are getting more and more expencive by the month. Not steeply but gradually.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about :lol:

 

[Dr. Mason]

I'm not part of this argument but, man you guys are mean to each other :']

Also, mine is cool, that statement was stupid. Being black does not make you automatically impossible to be racist.

 

[afstandopleren]

The Supes is right. There are many examples in current Western culture that proof you are wrong on that statement that you can't be a racist because you are part of the lable. They are *** people that are homophobic for example.

Now several parts of Africaare stuck in several civil wars, cutting each off from certain supplies. Even if they know how to cultivate, they wouldn't be able to because they are too caught up with their current situation. Why do you think so many people flee from their countries?

 

[Pandemonium]

I like this thread, Ryan (and not just because we share the same name XD). I'm normally not a fan of threads like 'this', but you pulled it off well.

This thread is booming full of useful information, but at the same time you aren't trying to shove this information down our throats. i.e. (DONATE!! DONATE!! DONATE!!)

You sold me on the first page, "...If I do nothing, does that change your sense of obligation? Do my actions somehow change the necessity or obligation for you to act?"

Thanks for the read and discussion. (Even though I was merely speculating the 'discussion')

 

[mine is cooler]

I'm not black lulz

Idc if you wanna save a country that never asked for help and arnt willing to change.

Africa will be what there people want it to be.

If they arnt willing to change then who cares?
It's not up to us to save them.

Maybe I am a little racist.. But no one.. And I mean no body is color blind.
I live 20 minutes out of detroit. And that city needs alotttt of help. (gangs, drugs, arson, murders, economy)
Help our own citys befor tackling other continents.

 

[ryanvergel]

Yeah, our problems of the occasional crime really compares to millions of people starving to death.

 

[Dr. Mason]

Secondly, I'll worry about Africa, like I have, when things get better. Focusing on the homefront, where my friends and family lie.

 

[Articjedi]

Why do people always make the assumption that other countries are ruled by consent of the people? Do we just take that for granted, or are we forgetting about the fact that a lot of countries are controlled by a single person out only for their own power? A lot of countries in Africa can't help themselves for that reason.

It also doesn't help that resource poor countries don't have the water supplies to stave off an ever growing Sahara desert, which makes soil completely infertile. The problem only gets worse gentlemen.

 

[ryanvergel]

Why do people always make the assumption that other countries are ruled by consent of the people? Do we just take that for granted, or are we forgetting about the fact that a lot of countries are controlled by a single person out only for their own power? A lot of countries in Africa can't help themselves for that reason.

It also doesn't help that resource poor countries don't have the water supplies to stave off an ever growing Sahara desert, which makes soil completely infertile. The problem only gets worse gentlemen.

http://www.botany.uwc.ac.za/envFacts/facts/desertification.htm

=D

A very fascinating phenomena going on. The world is turning into a desert as we deforest and ruin the environment.

 

[Spavie]

About the "they need to become more civilized before we can help them" thing.

What do you mean by that? Do you think that if they stop living in unclean primitive huts you will give them money to... what? Eat?

If you were an African with very little food and no money living in your little village of unwashed people in rude huts, and a generous person charitably gave you $5, what would you do? That's right, you'd spend it on food to keep yourself and your loved ones alive, not clothes or soap. Saying that they need to get with the times makes absolutely no sense. If all Africans put becoming civilized before eating there would be very few of them left.

Anyway, what makes them uncivilized? The fact that they're dirty and badly clothed? Maybe they have a strong social structure where etiquette of a sort rules, with the men letting the women and children eat before they take any food and similar? I'm sure that there are many people like that living in poverty in Africa.

A person in a person no matter how much money they have. It's a cliché but clichés become clichés for a reason. Just because some African has higher priorities than appearing civilized to people doesn't make them unworthy of our support. Maybe we're the uncivilized ones for thinking that the amount of sophistication that somebody has has anything at all to do with their character.

Most Africans didn't even do anything to become so poor, they were just unlucky about where they were born. Does that make them a bad person?

I, for one would be glad to donate money or time into helping these unlucky people in their time of need. If I were in their position I would be happy with all the help I could get. Maybe once they were no longer worried about starvation they could invest some money in clothes and soap and other things that we think make cultures "civilized"

About the actual problem in Africa.
I personally don't have a clue what is behind politics and stuff because I'm only fourteen, but it makes sense to me to focus on small communities one at a time. Giving everybody in Africa a quarter so that it takes them an extra day to starve to death seems like a far worse idea than going to one group of people, showing them how to raise farm animals or grow crops or something and letting them be self-sufficient, then moving on to they next group and so on.

Just my two cents.