Are marathons good for the game?

[SMP88]

It seems this pops up every year, with the same whiney argument. IF YOU CAN'T GO TO A MARATHON, you aren't dedicating the same time to the game as those that can. Yeah, it sucks. And, it may suck that your life sucks more than someone else, but that is life. Yes, it is unfair that some people can go to marathons and rack up tons of points while others can't. Its also unfair that those that can go to marathons and do show that dedication, goes unrewarded (if you believe they are bad for the game). Its a pretty simple concept, really: you go to a marathon, regardless of how or why, you get rewarded for your time to the game. If you don't, regardless of why, you shouldn't be able to reap the same rewards. I went to 4 of 5 days in DFW (only missed the last day due to some unforeseen non-pokemon related personal issues) and by doing so, I had to burn a weeks vacation and put up with my father-in-law for half the time and shell out the dough for a hotel a few days and the gas money to drive 6 hours there and back, plus all over the metroplex while there, and our food every day. It wasn't cheap and I don't particularly like burning that much vacation all at once, but that is the reason for the high payoff. If your job won't let you off or you don't have the money, that isn't Pokemon's fault, quit trying to ruin it for everyone else.

Pokemon should not be a game where you have to take off weeks of work in order to do well. If you are able to go to multiple weekend tournaments that should be good enough. That said, I enjoyed the Chicago marathon. While I was only able to attend 3 of them, I think it's a good thing to have multiple good and well known players at the same tournament.

I do wish that marathons were only 4 or so tournaments long during the week, with any other ones being spread over weekends. I know there were quite a few players in the Chicago area who couldn't make it to the weekday tournaments because they couldn't get time off of work. As more of these marathons happen, there will be loads of good feedback available, which should help PTOs determine exactly how the marathons should be run in order to maximize the number of players and competition.

 

[doomsday24]

Here in SoCal, we had four of us running our marathon. This way no one had to run more than two during the six days. Not only did this make things easier, it allowed some of us to go to the others and actually play as well.

 

[Mystery Thing]

It seems this pops up every year, with the same whiney argument. IF YOU CAN'T GO TO A MARATHON, you aren't dedicating the same time to the game as those that can.

Not necessarily.

Obviously I can only speak for what I can see and be a part of. But lets look at Alberta.

Geographically, we're 33% larger than California (Cali is just shy of 424k sq km; Alberta is just shy of 662k sq km). California got/gets 26 CCs. Alberta got/gets 4. It's hard to make a marathon out of 4 CCs, especially when they're spread out over a city distance of 3 hours driving. In short, it would be illogical to do a CC marathon here.

The closest CC to Edmonton (where 90% of the Alberta players are) is approximately a 13 hour drive to the nearest non-Alberta CC.

So don't you be telling me people here "aren't dedicating the time." We do not have the option to do so. TPCI only lets us run 4 CCs. If we could do more, we would.


The fact of the matter is that while the CP system is better than the ELO system in regards to favoring the players who can play more often, the CP system ~still~does~ hugely favor the people in large areas that get a bazillion tournaments. If anything, the CP system is WORSE than ELO to the players who have limited access to tournaments - under ELO, if you could consistantly go X-1 or X-2 at a tournament, you could still theoretically manage an alright rating. For people in Western Canada now, you'll pretty much need to win literally every tournament you play in all year long to even have a CHANCE to qualify for Worlds.

tl;dr: Marathons are great for people who live near them/are able to play in them. For people who simply do not have the option to do so, they at best are unfair and at worst help break the system.

 

[losjackal]

If anything, the CP system is WORSE than ELO to the players who have limited access to tournaments - under ELO, if you could consistantly go X-1 or X-2 at a tournament, you could still theoretically manage an alright rating. For people in Western Canada now, you'll pretty much need to win literally every tournament you play in all year long to even have a CHANCE to qualify for Worlds.

Then let me ask you and honest question, forgetting about the way it was done in the past.

If a player consistently goes X-1 or X-2 at tournaments, in sparsely populated areas and never winning the whole thing, should that player be considered one of the best 40 in North America?

 

[NoPoke]

Then let me ask you and honest question, forgetting about the way it was done in the past.

If a player consistently goes X-1 or X-2 at tournaments, in sparsely populated areas and never winning the whole thing, should that player be considered one of the best 40 in North America?

To be fair that is a loaded question and does not address the point that I thought was being made. Under elo it was not necessary to top cut every tournament. The perpetual bubble boy had a chance at a worlds invite because who you beat matters under elo as against where you finish. Both systems need you to play lots but elo would recognise a strong run outside nationals. That is not a feature of the CP system.

It was rare for a Canadian player to make the Top40 in the NA ratings without also having an invite from their Nationals. So in that sense if the new system locks out Canadian players completely then it is little different to before in terms of outcomes. Where there is a difference is the psychological one of feeling completely excluded.

 

[losjackal]

Agreed, I was responding to the latter half of the post, talking about which system was "worse" for players in remote regions....and extending it to the bigger picture of determining who are the best 40.

Looking at the two completed tournaments in Alberta, there were 26 and 21 Masters respectively. California tournaments typically have 1-3x more attendance? Chicagoland tournaments have 2.5x-3x? I suppose it's "right" that those areas get more tournaments, and Alberta only gets 4.

Which is making me think of perhaps it's unfair to compare Canadian players against United States players, lumping them into the same top 40.

 

[chrataxe]

Not necessarily.

Obviously I can only speak for what I can see and be a part of. But lets look at Alberta.

Geographically, we're 33% larger than California (Cali is just shy of 424k sq km; Alberta is just shy of 662k sq km). California got/gets 26 CCs. Alberta got/gets 4. It's hard to make a marathon out of 4 CCs, especially when they're spread out over a city distance of 3 hours driving. In short, it would be illogical to do a CC marathon here.

This made lol, literally. This is a ridiculous statement. Antartica has a larger land mass than Alberta and gets zero CC. What make your statement absolutely riduculous is population. California has a population of 37 million people, Alberta has 3.7 million. California has a population density 16x higher than Alberta, with 2 metro areas more populous than Alberta, and 2 more metros with 3 million and 2.2 million people. THAT is why California gets more. And, for what's its worth, California ONLY got 26 CC. If we compare population (which is the number that drive tournaments, not area), alberta got way more than california. Sounds like California got hosed to me, they only got .70 tournaments per million people while Alberta got 1.08.

Funny how stats work. Figures don't lie but liars figure.

MOST masters have jobs. And for juniors and seniors, their parents have jobs. EVERYONE that plays in a marathon sacrifices something to be there. Its selfish to complain that marathons are unfair because someone else not only gets to have more fun than you, but that they get rewarded for their sacrifices to go to these tournaments.

Lets be honest here, if you can't take off a few days, drive a few hours, and drop a few hundred bones on CC, you wont take off a week to fly a lot of hours to drop atleast a grand at worlds.


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[smacktack15]

To be fair that is a loaded question and does not address the point that I thought was being made. Under elo it was not necessary to top cut every tournament. The perpetual bubble boy had a chance at a worlds invite because who you beat matters under elo as against where you finish. Both systems need you to play lots but elo would recognise a strong run outside nationals. That is not a feature of the CP system.

It was rare for a Canadian player to make the Top40 in the NA ratings without also having an invite from their Nationals. So in that sense if the new system locks out Canadian players completely then it is little different to before in terms of outcomes. Where there is a difference is the psychological one of feeling completely excluded.

The new system doesn't lock out Eastern Canadian players, only Western Canadian players. Here in Ontario, we have access to upwards of 16 Cities all in Ontario with 10 of them coming from a marathon. I believe we had one of the biigest Marathons (if not the biggest) so there are definitely not any complaints from me.

 

[SMP88]

Lets be honest here, if you can't take off a few days, drive a few hours, and drop a few hundred bones on CC, you wont take off a week to fly a lot of hours to drop atleast a grand at worlds.

That's a terrible argument. It's not that people don't want to take days off, it's that some people actually live in the real world where they don't have weeks of vacation to take to attend Pokemon tournaments in the middle of December.

Just because a person isn't able to attend a CC marathon that doesn't mean they wouldn't attend Worlds. Worlds can be planned as an actual vacation. San Diego or Hawaii in the middle of the summer is a much more attractive location to spend a weeks worth of vacation on than any location in December. Worlds also has the feel of a really big tournament (as it should). All the banners, mascots, bands, etc make Worlds a fun tournament to attend. Most CCs are in the local card shop, library or school, not exactly top of the line fun filled tournaments. These locations do an excellent job of allowing a place to run an enjoyable tournament, but it's nowhere near the same feel as a Nats or Worlds.

Worlds also isn't as long as CC marathons. It's what, 3 days tops? If you planned a week long vacation for Worlds you have an extra 4 days to enjoy the city you're in. If you go to a week long CC marathon, You'll be attending 5-6 tournaments, and you don't want to miss one otherwise what was the point of coming.

 

[chrataxe]

I would actually venture to say that most people in the "real world" DO have a week to take off, some just don't. I get 2 weeks of vacation plus 2 personal holidays. I would say MOST people in the real world have similar circumstances. If I choose to use them on things other than pokemon and someone else decides to use it on pokemon, why should I get to complain about unfairness.

I promise you, I live in the "real world" and I just took 4 days off work that probably cost me a thousands bucks in hotels, gas, food, and hours lost, but I'm not complaining about it being unfair and I got to atrend a marathon. Don't confuse YOUR priorities with unfairness.

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[Raen]

I would actually venture to say that most people in the "real world" DO have a week to take off, some just don't. I get 2 weeks of vacation plus 2 personal holidays. I would say MOST people in the real world have similar circumstances. If I choose to use them on things other than pokemon and someone else decides to use it on pokemon, why should I get to complain about unfairness.

I promise you, I live in the "real world" and I just took 4 days off work that probably cost me a thousands bucks in hotels, gas, food, and hours lost, but I'm not complaining about it being unfair and I got to atrend a marathon. Don't confuse YOUR priorities with unfairness.

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Hold on. From my experience, the bulk of the player base are in their late teens to mid twenties. In other words, college students. Most college students do NOT have a job that lets them take a week off. Most don't even have a job that let's them have weekends off consistently. If you do, congrats, that's fantastic, but that certainly isn't the norm for (and I'm making assumptions here) the bulk of the player-base.

 

[ShadowCard]

Overall, I say marathons are great for the game when not in close proximity to another marathon event. This allows players to attend a lot more events than usual due to less event competition. If your area only has on weekends, you can attend those as well as a marathon event without having to miss an event.

Weekend events are only more fair to those who have a Mon-Fri job. The weekends in December are the busiest of the retail year. It would be far better to take off the last week of December than any of the weekends in December prior to Christmas. It is too hard to ask off weekends in December.

I would actually venture to say that most people in the "real world" DO have a week to take off, some just don't.

This. Anyone who has a full-time job has paid time off but hasn't planned their time correctly or their job has blacked-out the last week of december for some reason.

Hold on. From my experience, the bulk of the player base are in their late teens to mid twenties. In other words, college students. Most college students do NOT have a job that lets them take a week off. Most don't even have a job that let's them have weekends off consistently. If you do, congrats, that's fantastic, but that certainly isn't the norm for (and I'm making assumptions here) the bulk of the player-base.

I will argue that it IS the norm. Such a job sounds like a part-time, if not seasonal, hourly position. Part-time positions generally can request off whenever they want (within reason), they just do not get paid for it. Not to mention that, as a part-time position, it is unlikely the person is scheduled all 5 weekdays. There are some unscheduled days in there that they will have off already. This goes back to time planning. Did you take off so much time in December that your employer will not want to grant the request, or did you work all of your shifts up to that day you're requesting? Are you able to arrange for other people to cover your work shifts?

Worlds can be planned as an actual vacation. San Diego or Hawaii in the middle of the summer is a much more attractive location to spend a weeks worth of vacation on than any location in December. ... Most CCs are in the local card shop, library or school, not exactly top of the line fun filled tournaments. These locations do an excellent job of allowing a place to run an enjoyable tournament, but it's nowhere near the same feel as a Nats or Worlds.

So, Florida, New Jersey, California, Chicago have no attractions? . I was at the New Jersey Marathon. The hotel had a list of surrounding attractions in the area to visit. I heard the weather at the Florida marathon was great--people walking around in shorts in late December.

 

[Raen]

I suppose that my point was more that, for someone working a part-time, hourly position, it is VERY hard, if not impossible, to get a whole week off to attend a marathon. One or two days, sure, but not the entire marathon. December, in particular, is crunch time for those types of jobs as well.

Anyway, my point wasn't to necessarily argue against marathon, as I don't really have an issue with them. I'd only have a problem if they became so wide spread there weren't alternatives.

 

[ShadowCard]

I suppose that my point was more that, for someone working a part-time, hourly position, it is VERY hard, if not impossible, to get a whole week off to attend a marathon. One or two days, sure, but not the entire marathon. December, in particular, is crunch time for those types of jobs as well.

I will agree. Taking 2 weekdays off, not a big deal. Taking off 5 days, my manager reluctantly accepted. I actually drove up to the first marathon event the morning of the event instead of the night before so that I would be taking off one less day.

I really think it comes down to planning. In response to a comment made above "attend them all or what's the point?" I did not go to the Saturday event on the NJ Marathon because I felt it was too far for me to get back home at a reasonable time in order to go to work the next day. That did not stop me or anyone else who came with me from enjoying the other 4 events.

Anyway, my point wasn't to necessarily argue against marathon, as I don't really have an issue with them. I'd only have a problem if they became so wide spread there weren't alternatives.

I will agree here too. At the moment, I think they are great because, as I said above, they are on days with minimal competition with other events. I can go to them without having to miss any of my local events which are normally held on weekends. They also balance the weekend events by giving people who find it hard to request off weekend days a way to get to events.

 

[Mystery Thing]

This made lol, literally. This is a ridiculous statement. Antartica has a larger land mass than Alberta and gets zero CC. What make your statement absolutely riduculous is population. California has a population of 37 million people, Alberta has 3.7 million. California has a population density 16x higher than Alberta, with 2 metro areas more populous than Alberta, and 2 more metros with 3 million and 2.2 million people. THAT is why California gets more.

The point I'm making is not that it's unfair that Cali gets more tournaments (of course they have a crapton more people, and of course they should have more), it's that the few we do get are so insanely spread out geographically.


So it's fair that Alberta players are basically barred from any CP qualification because of where they live? Granted, I haven't done it, but if you drew a three hour driving distance circle around any of the cities in California with a CC, I think it's a fairly safe bet that within any of those circles you'll find more than 4 CCs.

The point is, under the old system, somebody from Alberta could theoretically qualify for Worlds (IIRC, it was actually done once). And now it's basically impossible. Of course I hate marathons, because nobody from here will have the chance to play in one ever, short of being able to drop multiple thousands of dollars in airfare and hotels on a card game (keep in mind that from Alberta, to fly to Vancouver for Regionals and Toronto for Nationals, which you would HAVE TO DO to make flying elsewhere for a CC marathon even remotely worth it, would run you nearly $1000. Just for airfare, for TWO tournaments. Forget the airfare to a marathon, forget the hotel costs for all of them.) For people who can play in them, they're awesome, and all the power to the people who participate in/run them. But for those of us who realistically can't play in them/are not permitted to run them, they absolutely do present a significant disadvantage.

 

[SteveP]

Marathons create in inbalance for geograhically-challenged areas. However, the top players generally come from high-volume tournament areas.

So, if we're talking about "fairness," it's not good. If we're talking about making top players even better, it's good -- but, at the expense of "making the rich even richer."

There are plenty of pros and cons here, depending on your perspective.

 

[King Piplup]

As far as Chicago Cities attendances, I believe the average has been around 55-60 in previous years. This year, it was 95. Some of that could be attributed to the change to CPs from ELO. IMO, most of it is attributable to the Marathon and hosting events on dates where there were no City Championships for over 250 miles in any direction. And I believe (based on Jimmy's OP) that the other events in the surrounding area (Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan) also saw minor attendance bumps, likely due to the combination of CPs and a lack of competition from other tournaments.

I'm pretty sure MI has seen some declines. Last year, I don't believe there was a single tournament we didn't have a Top 8 for masters. I believe that only half the tournaments had a Top 8 this year.

Note that I could be wrong on exact numbers. Just wanted to throw this out there though.