Ban List - Which Cards?

[vaporeon]

No but I have no problem talking about what I'm going to play. I just made a Vaporeon and Pidgeot deck I want to try out.

 

[chriscobi634]

How about we nor errata anything that isn't broken or mistranslated like in the past.

Thanks for bringing this up. I really don't understand why don't listen to us players, I mean they have already sold us the product why not keep us happy so we buy more from the next set. Or encourage friends to play Pokemon. It's hard to try to bring friends into a game when they can lose a game before they can even draw a card. Where is the fun in that? If they can change cards/errata cards that they have made mistakes on from translations why can't they ban cards that destroy formats?

I was actually having a discussion about this with our league leader. We came up some interesting idea/reasons why PTCi run this game the way they do. Key word interesting, not good. So please feel free to burst my bubble about this idea if they are truly bad or why they couldn't be feasible.

Since PTCi (or who ever makes up the cards) are pretty bad at making cards that fit well into formats, why not have them hire like 4 elite established players from the US and 4 from Japan and have them decide if a card is good for a format or not. Take like the best minds in the game like Ness, Pooka, Jimmy Ballard and whoever else is a genius at this game when it comes to building decks. Then take 4 similar players from Japan, but them in a room and show them spoilers of cards before they are sent to the printing press. Don't have those guys be the card creators but simply decide if a card would be good or bad for a metagame.

One of the reasons we thought of why they keep making formats being just a few decks that dominate is too keep players interested in the game but giving hopes that formats will eventually get better. This didn't make much sense to me, as he explained that most formats have been that way, and he's been around since Base set, I started playing in 06, which in the opinion of many was the best state this game has had ever. Sadly for me I was barely getting into the game towards the end of the season so I couldn't fully enjoy that season and remain hopeful that one day we'll have another format similar to that one. In the mean time I slowly but surely start losing interest in the game as I have now realized this "gimmick" they are trying to pull.

On the other, it also makes sense that since they know players are going to keep playing this game regardless of whether formats are bad or good why not try making formats better. I mean they should go to extremes to make formats better like ban or errata cards that are unhealthy for the format/metagame. If more players enjoy the format it'll help in sales as they'll be motivated to buy more cards. My league leader told me PTCi has actually researched how many sales come from competitive battlers compared to how sales come from non competitive players, from little Jimmy that asks him mom to buy him the newest tin at Target or Toys-R-Us. The facts he gave me where that sales from competitive players is really only about 3-5% of their sales which I find hard to believe. Any hardcore facts about these numbers would be greatly helpful, or even a very good estimate. From how many players I hear at League and just general competitive players say they will buy a box from each set compared to how many sales are actually made from the Targets and Toys-R-Us stores, I would have to say it's almost about 50/50.

Another reason why wider formats are better for sales when you have a bigger selection of decks. Judging from the 06 season, many of the those decks require way more different engines that now. Surely a lot had Pidgeot but Team Rockets/Dark decks had trainers from TTR, all the sets had many staple cards like Stadiums (which I haven't seen a stadium in these last two sets), trainers, techs. Add the fact that each set from the EX series had around 6-8 Ex per set and the longevity that they kept with that series. Their were a total of 15 Ex sets. A couple branched of into their thing like EX and Delta or Ex Magma/Aqua, but the basic concept was still there. Sp Pokemon had 4 sets, leading to a very unbalanced format where they dominated since they were so overpowering. Let's just say that instead of going into just purely HGSS like they did, they instead made an SP HGSS set. Made more SP Pokemon I honestly believe that our format wouldn't have been as boring. It would no longer be just SP vs. No SP since enough variants of SP would exist to actually counter each other well. Who's to say that if they ever made a good Fighting SP Pokemon Luxray wouldn't be as popular. Currently it gets countered pretty well by Promocroak and that's a situation tech, last format Relicanth did the job pretty well too for simple tech Pokemon now imagine an actual good fighting SP Pokemon? Then Palkia would be slightly more playable. Or any other Water SP Pokemon they could have made to replace Palkia as the dominant Water SP Pokemon. Sure they made Donphan but it just didn't have all the SP tools at it's disposal. How about few more Fire SP Pokemon to counter Dialga, or Colorless for Garchomp. We can only speculate:frown:

 

[bullados]

Prime? Is that you? ^_^

Seriously, though...

TPCi does not design the cards.

They never have.

They probably never will.

The people who design the cards, rulings, and game rules are all at Pokemon Card Laboratories (PCL) in Japan.

And they design their sets around their own metagame, which is placed in a significantly different format than the US/World game.

Japan currently plays in an HS-on environment.

Up until the BW release, they played in a PT-on environment.

The new cards are balanced in the environment that they were designed for.

While I don't agree with the new rules (what's the advantage to going second), they appear to work in the environment they were designed for.

The problem is that marketing in the US seems to be making the decisions about Organized Play and specifically the number and types of sets that are legal.

It leaves everybody else to pick up the mess.

My greatest hope is that, somehow, the people in the P!P division at TPCi assert some control and brings some balance to this format. Whether it's through card changes (never gonna happen), bans/restricts, or an early rotation, something needs to happen before this game goes the way of Hakusho with every single game being decided on the first turn.

These are the observations of an outsider looking in. This in no way represents what actually goes on within TPCi or PCL, because I've really got do dam clue. But in a world where perception equals reality, it would be a very, very good thing for TPCi to nip this perception in the bud before it's allowed to grow.

 

[wobbufet]

1. Sableye
2. Sableye
3. Sableye
4. Sableye

I think this list explains itself

 

[Shen]

Sorry for posting back so late.

A lot of those blockers had counters:
Dragonite Ex Detla - was never really good to begin with. So many people try to make it work since it was right after Mewtric won Worlds, but it just couldn't be "broken".

Houndoom (UF) - Cessation Crystal, Lati-lock or keep a small bench.

Medicham Ex - As you stated, it was an Ex so it had it's draw back of giving 2 prizes when KOed.

Cessation Crystal - Windstorm. But again was in a format that pretty much made you choose to either run Windstorm or a Cessation Crystal deck.

Dusknoir (D/P) - It's locking power didn't kill your opponent, it was kind of like Houndoom as it only restricted your opponent but within limits. It lost a lot of play once SP/P. Spray hit the scheme and stadiums weren't as big any more.

Then as you also mentioned G/G was just stupidly broken. Mewtric required a lot of skill to play, it was like the DialgaChomp of it's format. No random player could just make a list and go to tournament and expect to do well. It had few good matches, but few bad ones as well.

Right, I'm agreeing with you. I didn't say it, but my point was that everything in past formats was copable because it had 1.) a fair trade-off, like being EX or 2.) a counter that was playable in almost every deck (like Cessation Crystal and Windstorm). Come to think of it I'm not really sure why I put Dusknoir, it didn't establish much of a "lock," but you could definitely play around it either way.

Dragonite EX didn't see play but it was STILL an EX. Houndoom's generally accepted counter was Latilock BUT Houndoom still came at a cost because it made you play with no bench.

No one played that stadium, NO ONE. It was in the Cessation Crystal format, and like I mentioned before it was a format of almost none existent stadiums.

I think it would have seen more play but CG just came out, and before then Cessation Crystal couldn't even be a threat AND Bandoom started playing Crystal Beach. I saw some Space Centers for awhile but it never achieved popularity.

But on topic, I only mentioned Space Center because I mentioned Latilock itself as a lock (as its name suggests), and everything I listed had a counter (whether it was played or not). Countering Latilocking is another discussion

We have always been provided with counters IF the Pokemon did not come at a trade off (being EX, etc). Latilock did in fact have a counter, besides Cessation Crystal which came out after Latilock was released.

The game always presented us with obstacles, and you have to prepare yourself. As much as players would like not to, they often have to play counters in order to remain competitive. Windstorm is a perfect example, it did almost nothing besides serve as a counter to Cessation Crystal and other minor annoyances. If you didn't need it to get rid of Cess, it was a dead draw. Locks have been and will always be part of the game, but they have usually been kept well balanced.

So far in spoiler for the next set for B/W sets we don't have anything else that shut off bodies. So it'll be until CC until we POSSIBLY might see something that does. Even if they do print something that shuts off bodies, we still have to worry about LostGar's dominance, :/

I don't think we'll ever get anything that actually shuts off Vileplume 'cuz B/W doesn't acknowledge Pokebodies anymore in favor of Abilities But depending on the format we may still have choices... Firstly, we lose Warp Energy probably no matter what (its last print was SF). DP-on (unlikely to happen) keeps Dialga, RR-on keeps Luxray, SV-on keeps Blaziken (I think Luxray would be better, but no Warp Energy helps tons), AR-on would be terrible because we can't switch out Spiritomb w/ Luxray or Blaziken, HG:SS-on gets rid of Spiritomb so we have a chance to kill off Oddishes/Glooms with Snipes/Gust of Wind and they always have to wait a turn to Rare Candy.

I haven't looked at the spoilers for the next BW set so I'll take your word for it on the rest

 

[Haunter_FanBoy]

Banhammer:

Seeker
Sableye
Uxie

Limit (only 1):
Crobat

EDIT: Yu-Gi-Oh haters, go play the current Yu-Gi-Oh format, while it is fast, slower decks still have a very good chance and comebacks are everywhere.
Yu-Gi-OH>Pokemon with the current formats.

 

[Porii Sames]

Alright, have any of yall even PLAYED a donk deck?

Would not survive without Uxie...no need to ban/limit anything else.

Of course, I don't support any bans, but w/e

 

[Genguy]

Alright, have any of yall even PLAYED a donk deck?

Would not survive without Uxie...no need to ban/limit anything else.

Of course, I don't support any bans, but w/e

Yes. I have faith in many people above that they have played donk decks. Sable Donk doesn't need Uxie to donk. It only needs an Unown Dark, A Sableye and a Crobat G, all which could be run in max and be fetched with Pokemon Collector or Dual Ball.

I believe your abbreviation is what else, and banning both Sableye and Uxie would solve that problem. We could then limit Crobat to 2 per deck, and we could all be happy its over with. Maybe take out a cyrus here and there, perhaps ban BTS, and I think were a lot better from where we started.

 

[Jason]

Porii Sames, I know your main rogue deck is Beedrill G donk, and I know you wont give up your pet deck. By the way, the wild Beedrills have called your name and they need you urgently. Why not come and look for them instead of making more useless posts?

Sableye would needs to be banned. Uxie to 1, Crobat to 1. That's all I would ask from TPCI to fix the format.

 

[vaporeon]

Better yet, just ban Crobat G all together. Most decks use one anyway so a limit on the card would not hurt most decks anyway.

Crobat G is like playing a card that says, "you may take a prize card".

 

[Porii Sames]

^And then errata'd so it says "if you play this card 8 times, you may take a prize card".

 

[Cyrus]

As a lot of you guys are displaying, errata'ing for the sake of balance is a very messy business. Errata as the solution to the Sableye dilemma is out of the question.

Let's not get into Vileplume or Seeker: despite an occasional in-game glitch, those two are actually very balanced cards. The only three that are any imminent threat to "breaking" the format are Sableye, Uxie, and Crobat G.

*Primary concern: BAN Sableye
*Secondary concern: RESTRICT Uxie to one
*Tertiary concern: RESTRICT Crobat G to one

The importance of all three of these happening is huge, but if only one must happen, then this is how I'd rank them.

 

[baby mario]

People are also showing why banning and/or errata are very very difficult for TPCI.

Ban/errata Sableye and people say 'now do it to Uxie!'

Ban/errata Uxie and people say 'now do it to Crobat!'

Ban/errata Crobat and people say 'now ban Vileplume/DCE/Seeker/Luxray/Garchomp/Lost World/Arcanine SV!'

There is no good way out of this, but the least worst seems to be an early rotation.

 

[AlmightyGoldenGarchomp]

Oh, I have an idea! WAIT FOR THE CARDS YOU DON'T LIKE TO ROTATE OUT!!! seriously, people. Cards don't last forever. Bad cards have always been rotated out. Patience is a virtue, impatience isn't.

 

[baby mario]

Nats and Worlds are important to some people.

Waiting for the rotation isn't going to stop those tournaments being spoiled by T1 Sableye wins is it?

 

[AlmightyGoldenGarchomp]

It's just one year. There is always next year and the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, and so on until Pokemon comes to an end. One bad year is not going to ruin everything.

 

[chriscobi634]

Even if you just ban Sableye right now you still have to worry about Uxie donk. Many people would argue that we had Uxie Donk before, but the biggest conceron people have that it just becomes even more ridiculous now with B&W rules. Sableye is a good starter, so I honestly don't believe it should be banned as it has it's own strategic deck in SableLock and is used how it should be used in Gyarados.

The easiest way to solve this problem is to simply errata Uxie and Crobat G to 1 per turn.

If we really wanted to go overboard and completely balance the format for Nats, get rid of Energy Gain. As it takes a lot of speed away from SPs, and that's the biggest reason why Luxchomp is dominating, it's speed. In previous formats, there were T2 decks like Medicham Ex, T2 Disconnect aka Mewtric, etc. With how fast SPs are you can't even call it a T2 deck, as it can cripple/beat you from the very first turn. If you take away Energy Gain, then it becomes a T2 deck, and we have a very balanced format. A format that is long over due to competitive players.

 

[Shen]

I disagree. Uxie donk got nerfed and besides that not much has changed. Uxie STILL only has a 50/50 chance at the donk.

B/W Rules: If a player goes first against Uxie, they can set up a bench with trainers/etc. The Uxie player likely loses.

Old rules: If a player goes second against Uxie, then Uxie gets no trainers on their first turn and the player got to set up a bench. Uxie had a disadvantage.

Both scenarios have the same 50/50 odds of happening.

Additionally, Uxie has NO late game now. PlusPowers are discarded immediately after use, so when they start the Psychic Restore loop late game they cap out at 40. Before, Uxie still had a modest late game doing ~80 every turn and making you play from 3 prizes down after it nuked your field. 40 doesn't even measure up, so if they fail to get the donk they will probably just scoop.

There's honestly only one card that we need to go after, and there's 2 to pick from: Sableye or Uxie. I don't believe in banning, but if either are nerfed we only need to hit one and not the other.

 

[Cyrus]

Cobi: No, you can't limit the playing of a card to one per turn - that's the same as errata'ing the card.

"Almighty Golden Garchomp": You're wrong. nobody in here is being impatient - we're all patiently waiting for P!P to fix the problem, save the next four month of OP, and secure its company's bottom line.

What this thread is about, though, is anxiety. Players are anxiously awaiting an announcement, and because they are anxious, their patience is wearing thin.

 

[baby mario]

blah blah blah

Congratulations on your mastery of copy and paste.

Next time, try and have a point.

Why should we have to wait another year for a decent format for Nats/Worlds? Not everyone gets to attend them every single year. Each one is important to the people who attend.

Are you even going to those tournaments?