Ban List - Which Cards?

[bullados]

Or you could have what happened to the Holon engine...

3) The engine rocks socks and leads to a brand new style of deckbuilding that benefits not only the strategy and/or Pokemon it was designed around, but also everything else in the entire format. I think the only 2 cards in the Holon Engine that were Delta specific were Researcher and Adventurer, and neither of those were particularly important parts of the Engine.

 

[OllieK]

The personal factor is currently missing from the game. What good is writing music if you don't play with emotion? Similarly, what good is it playing a game when you're not having fun?

It's not similar at all, that's a terrible analogy. People will play this game for the prizes, even if they hate the game. If Sabledonk does become huge, everybody will play it. And if everybody plays it, imagine what it will be like, with every single game coming down to a coin flip. The fact that you can win free flights and booster boxes by getting lucky flips is terrible, and it will completely elliminate the skill that was previously needed to obtain said prizes.

 

[toxictaipan]

Or you could have what happened to the Holon engine...

3) The engine rocks socks and leads to a brand new style of deckbuilding that benefits not only the strategy and/or Pokemon it was designed around, but also everything else in the entire format. I think the only 2 cards in the Holon Engine that were Delta specific were Researcher and Adventurer, and neither of those were particularly important parts of the Engine.

To be fair, I started playing right when the Holon Engine was on its way out.


But that's exactly what I'm saying, though. That's the happy medium. Other cards were able to benefit from the engine. SP related cards don't allow that. They have extremely restricting clauses that prevent non-SP related cards from benefiting from their effects. Not to mention that SP Pokemon are already stupidly overpowered enough without any intervening help. It's just overwhelming and frustrating.

---------- Post added 04/19/2011 at 01:32 PM ----------

It's not similar at all, that's a terrible analogy. People will play this game for the prizes, even if they hate the game. If Sabledonk does become huge, everybody will play it. And if everybody plays it, imagine what it will be like, with every single game coming down to a coin flip. The fact that you can win free flights and booster boxes by getting lucky flips is terrible, and it will completely elliminate the skill that was previously needed to obtain said prizes.

LOL.

Missing the point.

 

[OllieK]

Then obviously you didn't explain it well enough

 

[chrataxe]

Power Spray, Sableye, Fortress LA...not sure of the 4th.

The format for the rest of the year is going to be stupid...I can guarantee I'm not going to Nats in this environment....I'll spend upwards of $1,000 taking my family on a vacation we ENJOY, not stay pissed off the whole time because we were donked.

 

[OllieK]

The thing is, Sabledonk isn't unbeatable.

We already have Sablelock, Gyarados and Vilegar, all tier 1 (Sablelock maybe tier 2 not sure) which can withstand Sabledonk.

Vilegar: Spiritomb will more or less force the opponent to scoop
Sablelock/Gyarados: Sableye opener will throw the balance of the game into a coin flip, so it's 50-50, Sabledonk by no means better

Remember what happened to Lostgar? everybody just teched in Weavile, it's going to happen again, everybody will just tech in Spiritomb, and then everything will be back to normal. On reflection, the format is fine as it is. Plus, Sabledonk hasen't even won anything yet, it's still pure speculation, so I have no idea why everybody is going mad about banning Sableye

 

[chrataxe]

No bans are necessary. Play around the donks...

Dude, you aren't even playing Devil's Advocate anymore.

Here is a scenario that happened at regionals:

A Uxie donker makes top cut. This kid is uber annoying, going on and on about how much skill it takes to play Uxie...in EVERY match. Just to make matters worse, I lost to him in States, so I already heard his speech, and to EVEN worse, we both start 1-2, so I'm playing near him for 5 rounds listening to it all day. He top cuts and plays a VERY good play in T32. He goes second, T1 donk. Game 2, his opponent makes him go first, he loses. Game 3, he makes his opponent go first T1 donk....how exactly do you propose he play around it?

---------- Post added 04/19/2011 at 01:54 PM ----------

I'd kinda prefer this one...

If your Opponent has no Pokemon on his or her field when you attack, you take a prize.​

This ensures that every game lasts for at least 5 turns while still allowing for FTKOs and the pressure of having something big to deal with. Of course, it must also be balanced by one other rule...

If you have no Pokemon in play and at least one Basic in your hand, you MUST play at least one Basic Pokemon before your turn ends.​

But that opens up a whole can of worms about Judging that I don't really want to think about.

You could always make that to also say"If you have no Pokemon in play 2 turns in a row, you lose."

 

[bullados]

OllieK: SableDonk still takes Tomb roughly 40% of the time, depending on the specific builds of the decks (i.e. how many Basics are in each). And it has tricks that it can pull to get out of a Tomb lock. As far as Gyarados, that's a nonstarter. Even if Gyara goes first, it can't get 4 80+ HP Pokemon in play on the first turn of the game. Plus, y'know, 30HP targets.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

I'm not sure what I would ban exactly, but if I had to choose 4 cards, I would have trouble with the 4th one.

I would ban the following.

Vileplume - This is the ONLY card in the entire format that can shut down entire decks (with the exception of Mewtwo Lv. X). However saying that, the fact that it works on the bench it is just way too powerful. It shouldn't be legal period. It should never have been made IMO.

Luxray GL Lv. X - I'm not really sure this needs an explanation. It's broken, there isn't any other way to put it. Gust of wind in a power is silly.

Garchomp C. Lv. X - For more than one reason. Being able to tank a Dialga Lv. X and then heal it is a little broken. I just feel that overall the Lv. X is a little powerful, but it might not be as bad without Luxray Lv. X legal.

After those three I have an issue of choosing because I feel not having those 3 cards legal would open up the format dramatically.

I don't have an issue with Sableye, Uxie, Azelf, Crobat, or anything else that people have said. BTS isn't broken, it is a solid card. You can't say because of one thing Sableye is broken. It hasn't been that way for the first what 2-3 years that it was out, but now that it might be the BDIF it is? If that is the case it would only be for 4 months.

Or you could have what happened to the Holon engine...

3) The engine rocks socks and leads to a brand new style of deckbuilding that benefits not only the strategy and/or Pokemon it was designed around, but also everything else in the entire format. I think the only 2 cards in the Holon Engine that were Delta specific were Researcher and Adventurer, and neither of those were particularly important parts of the Engine.

Researcher was the only thing really specific, but it could get a Metal Energy. Holon Adventurer allowed you to draw an extra card if you discard a delta pokemon, but drawing 3 for 2 (the card + discard) is good. The Holon Engine was the best in balancing out decks the game has ever had.

Drew

 

[Jaeger]

Gimmick posters need to know when it's time for a new gimmick.

Playing around a donk requires getting a turn. As you know full well.

TBH I don't really want bans or erratas. Do one now and people are going to be demanding them the whole time in future.

What I want is card pool and and rulebook that don't produce ridiculous OTW decks. The best solutions would be early rotation or a delay on the B&W rules.

I don't even bother any more he's just troll that tries to raise his post count with useless crap

 

[JohnnyBlaze]

I don't have an issue with Sableye, Uxie, Azelf, Crobat, or anything else that people have said.

Drew you need to have an issue with 3 out of those 4 cards you listed because Sableye, Uxie, and Crobat G are the engine that drives the first turn kills. The other cards you listed cant even get out once the Sableye player goes 1st.

In a SP mirror you can tank Dialga and Warp it to the bench all you want but if the other player is holding a Power Spray and Sprays Garchomp X, then Garchomps heal is useless. Also against Vileplume - Dialga G Lv X shuts that down. And again for Luxray X there is Power Spray in the mirror match to stop that. So really its not SP that is a problem its the other 3 cards that you dont have a problem with??

 

[losjackal]

As far as Gyarados, that's a nonstarter. Even if Gyara goes first, it can't get 4 80+ HP Pokemon in play on the first turn of the game. Plus, y'know, 30HP targets.

Huh? If Gyarados goes first, it won't try to survive by placing down Basics. It will try to donk what is most likely a lone Uxie or Crobat G (since the opponent didn't start Sableye). BTS lets it evolve right away. Junk Arm lets its discard Magikarps right away. Gyarados is unlikely to play Seeker first turn, so really the only thing that lets Sabledonk survive is if it started with more than one Pokemon. In this scenario, good 'ol Sablelock has a better chance since it has more basics.

 

[Sneasing Sneasel]

How many of you guys are playing with the cards people want banned right now?

Rare candy... that's it. I used to run Sableye and Expert belt but I wasn't having enough fun. I've been ready for the rotation for a while. I came in 2nd at battle roads.Witch I don't think I could pull off without rare candy.

 

[toxictaipan]

Then obviously you didn't explain it well enough

Because it's always the speaker's fault when the listener chooses to hear what they want to hear, right? But okay, fine. Be that way.

People who play for prizes don't care about the game in any way. They're just playing for prizes. As long as they win, it doesn't matter if the format is healthy or what. Not to mention they are probably the largest minority (OXYMORON TIME, KIDS) in the game. I haven't met a single person who only plays for prizes. Everyone I know plays because they share a common interest in Pokemon and enjoy hanging out with their friends, like the competitiveness of the game, etc.

People like to have a personal connection to the game. It's hard to have a personal connection to the game when you get donked on the first turn and have almost no room for creativity when building a deck.

This is a discussion about people who actually care about the game, the health of the format, having fun, etc. You're arguing something completely irrelevant to the discussion. While you're at it, you might as well be ranting about that one guy who brings an acoustic guitar to the park every weekend to pick up girls but doesn't actually care about music.

IN OTHER WORDS:
Some people like to play Pokemon for fun, friends, etc. These are the same people who like to play music with emotion, to have fun, etc.
Some people just like to play Pokemon for prizes. These are the same people who just like to play music to show off.

They're completely separate groups of people. I was only talking about the first one, so I don't really see how you got that out of my argument. At all.

 

[toxicroak 96]

No bans are necessary. Play around the donks...

How is it possible to play around a donk if you don't even get a turn? Sometimes you won't start Tomb or Sableye to counter it.

 

[Porii Sames]

^Sometimes they won't start Sableye to donk you...

 

[OllieK]

How is it possible to play around a donk if you don't even get a turn? Sometimes you won't start Tomb or Sableye to counter it.

You have just as many sableye as them, thus you have just as much chance as opening with one as them.

 

[Porii Sames]

^Well, you have a larger chance of opening with more basics (too lazy to do the exact calcs), but the idea is right.

 

[Prime]

^Well, you have a larger chance of opening with more basics (too lazy to do the exact calcs), but the idea is right.

I'm staying out of this discussion mainly because I have little experience testing with the new rules with the mentioned cards.

I'd suggest the same to other people *hint hint* with a similar (lack of) experience. :lol:

 

[sdp]

You can put me on the "Unban Ancient Mew and ____'s Pikachu from Unlimited" list.