Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Blastoise/Keldeo is God Awful...

Chompy

Active Member
After play the deck extensively online since the scans of the cards came out, I feel like this deck will wind up having the same fate that LostGar and Garchomp/Altaria had back then. The deck is too slow, it loses to Darkrai variants, Hydreigon/Darkrai, and Garbodor variants. It is too dependent on Blastoise to have the deck even function properly. On average, I seem to get Blastoise on Turn 4, which is very hard to come by. Sigilyph destroys this deck alone because most of the of the main attackers are EX Pokemon. Most of the time, I can't seem to attack at all until turn 3 and the deck has no recovery at all if you don't have Blastoise in play. The only thing the deck has going is that Landorus ex is weak to water. Even with it, your opponent will run Mewtwo ex, which gives the deck a lot of trouble, or Garchomp for that matter.


What your thoughts?
 
Last edited:
OK, before we go any further with this discussion...

After playtesting a few matches online.

... what exactly do you mean by "a few matches"? If you've only tested the deck 2-3 times, than saying the deck is god awful because of a couple bad games isn't valid criticism at all.
 
OK, before we go any further with this discussion...



... what exactly do you mean by "a few matches"? If you've only tested the deck 2-3 times, than saying the deck is god awful because of a couple bad games isn't valid criticism at all.

By a few matches, I mean 20+ or more matches. I have tested this deck for a week, since the scans were released.
 
I have tested the deck extensively as well. It isn't that bad. It will win some stuff. Probably won't destroy the metagame, but will become a part of it.

In my experience in order to get it to work, you have to drop all of the tech cards. Literally all of them. Blastoise line. Keldeo line. Maybe one additional attacker (Kyurem in my case). Everything else needs to be 100% consistency, recovery, or energy. No SSU, no Max Potion, nothing like that.

The deck is mindnumbingly autopilot, and still fails to set up consistently, but it sets up maybe 60% of games and can keep rolling in 75% of those. When it works, it works pretty well.
 
The deck works fine for me have been testing for several weeks. Is it BDIF? of course not. Is it god awful? of course not. As with Kayle I find the deck to setup 60 to 70 percent of the time as for techs, and as for additional attackers I believe a mewtwo line works wonders in here as it has for me in my testing. As for cards like super scoop up or max potion, I really do believe ssu is very good in the deck and isnt as much as a tech. More of something like max potion and dark trance combos.
 
Blastoise/Keldeo is by no means awful. I do feel personally that it is far over hyped, but with the proper deck build, you can capitalize ont he obvious synergy between the two and the lack of good mons to hit them for weakness.

Additionally, solely online testing doesn't give you a great feel for your personal metagame, and to be frank, I don't believe the randomization mechanics are worth swearing by. The deck is able to do the same thing in almost every matchup, making it easy to pick up, and anything in this meta can just draw dead.

And the comparison to Garchomp/Altaria is absolutely rubbish. GarChomp requires attacking with a Stage 2 completely defined by the presence of an offensively useless stage 1 every turn that can easily be catcher stalled. Blastoise/Keldeo attacks with a basic ex with more hp than chomp who counters Catcher stalling, and Blastoise allows you to play other Pokemon in the same engine (Mewtwo, Kyurem, non ex Keldeo if you want). And Blastoise can be functioning properly the entire game with a single copy of each in play, where Chomp has to fill up its board.
 
Here is my current list.

Pokemon (13)

3-1-3 Blastoise
2 Keldeo EX
2 Mewtwo EX
2 Kyurem NVI

Energy (12)

12 Water

Trainers (35)

4 N
3 Juniper
3 Skyla
3 Cheren
1 Cilan
4 Pokemon Catcher
3 Rare Candy
3 Super Scoop Up
3 Ultra Ball
2 Level Ball
1 Heavy Ball
2 Energy Retrieval
1 Computer Search
1 Tropical Beach


@Kayle: Are you saying that I should remove

2- Mewtwo ex
1- Kyurem
3- Super scoop ups
1- Cilian

for more draw cards?
 
Pokemon (12)

4-1-3 Blastoise
3 Keldeo EX
[del]2 Mewtwo EX[/del]
1 Kyurem NVI

Energy (15)

15 Water

Trainers (33)

4 N
4 Juniper
2 Skyla
4 Cheren

[del]1 Cilan[/del]
4 Pokemon Catcher
4 Rare Candy
[del]3 Super Scoop Up[/del]
4 Ultra Ball
2 Level Ball
[del]1 Heavy Ball[/del]
2 Energy Retrieval
2 Super Rod
1 Computer Search


Yeah, close enough. This is the list I am using right now that sets up pretty cleanly. I don't know what I would take out to add in anything else, and if I were to add anything I don't know what it would be because I don't want SSU, I want additional consistency help.

Decks like this (rain dance/deluge/what have you) just need too many cards for the hand sizes and supporter constraints in Pokemon to work IMO.
 
Blastoise/Keldeo is a deck which not only requires your knowledge of the cards out now but as well as past experience to get the feel for it. Not to mention, your playstyle makes a difference. So, here's a list of questions and my answers.

1. Is Blastoise/Keldeo god awful?
A: I say no because it really gets a paved down equaling trouble for the others once Blastoise hits the field. I'll say this though. If you say yes, this deck is not for you.

2. Is the deck auto-pilot?
A: No. It requires past knowledge of how it works and functions. It is a deck from the past after all.
@Chompy: This is probably your problem.

3. Can this deck beat Tier 1 decks like Zek-Eels and Darkrai?
A: Yes it can. All it needs is Blastoise + Keldeo EX and its golden.

4. Can this deck be beaten?
A: Yes, of course. There are cards that do shut this deck down.

5. Is the deck inconsistent?
A: Sometimes it is. However, I noticed that if you get Keldeo EX in play, you might not need Blastoise for a little while.

That is my opinion. I play a variant with a 3-2-3 Blastoise along with 4 Keldeo EX online. However, in real life, I actually play a variant with Prism Energy ad Black+White Kyurems. I know what you're saying, what are you thinking? Well, I gotta fit my budget because I only have 1 Keldeo EX in real life. However, it does decently well too.

For now, this is PMysterious signing off. :thumb:
 
You say the deck is terrible, BUT YOUR LIST IS TERRIBLE. Don't dis a deck because you don't know how to play/build it.
 
I honestly stopped reading at "turn 4 blastoise". That is your problem right there. Its been suggested already, but maximizing supporters and rare candies will help you out a lot. Plus stick to primarily keldeo. Maybe one tech pokemon.

Ps. This deck is easier to play than durant.
 
1. Is Blastoise/Keldeo god awful?
A: I say no because it really gets a paved down equaling trouble for the others once Blastoise hits the field. I'll say this though. If you say yes, this deck is not for you.

Paved down equaling trouble for the others? What? Can you clarify what this means?

2. Is the deck auto-pilot?
A: No. It requires past knowledge of how it works and functions. It is a deck from the past after all.
@Chompy: This is probably your problem.

Keldeo definitely isn't from the past, and the elder format you want to reference did not play anything like this one does. Keldeo games (with my list, at least) consist of a very simple flowchart, which looks something like this:

No Blastoise? Got cards to get it? If so, get it. If not, search what you can, then Juniper/N.
No Keldeo? Got cards to get it? If so, get it. If not, Juniper/N.
No Energy? Got cards to get it? If so, get it. If not, Juniper/N.
Got all of the above? Use Rush In until you can attack, then attack.

The hardest decisions are what to Catcher up and how much energy to attach at what times. That's pretty much it. Those decisions, in turn, depend on the list you're playing (how many retrieval? super rod? energy?). It's not like a deck like D/H where you need to be extremely careful which attacker you use, which Pokemon you Max Potion, or what energy you put where at what time (because you don't have nearly as much control over that, nor do you play the same diverse count of energy as even a basic D/H). It's not like a deck like Eels where you have loads of options, huge upkeep costs, and the need to balance both of those things while still maintaining offensive presence. It's very simple. Got what you need? Then attack. Don't? Then Juniper til you got it. Sure a smart player will make better decisions than a stupid/inexperienced one... but you don't need much experience or testing to play Keldeo well.

3. Can this deck beat Tier 1 decks like Zek-Eels and Darkrai?
A: Yes it can. All it needs is Blastoise + Keldeo EX and its golden.

Firstly, yes, it can beat tier 1 decks and it's stupid. But let's put me on the record as saying that it can, in fact, beat established tier 1 decks.

Saying "all it needs is Blastoise + Keldeo and it's golden" is somewhere between misleading and outright incorrect. Blastoise takes 3+ cards to get into play all by itself firstly. But aside from that, you need energy. And that's really where this archetype struggles. Darkrai/Hydreigon only needs the standard one attach per turn to function (Dark Patch is pretty nice though); Keldeo needs like three-four energy in its hand at a time (at least to get the first Keldeo attacking). That's where the whole "Got it? No? then Juniper" attitude comes in - it's the only way, combined with a high energy count, I've ever found to get the huge energy requirement that the deck demands.

It needs Blastoise, Keldeo, and 3+ energy. That is a commitment of at least 7 cards - in other words, an exactly perfect starting hand - without accounting for supporters. You have 60 cards in your deck. Statistically this should be very hard to do, and saying I can do it 60% of the time is quite impressive as it is.

4. Can this deck be beaten?
A: Yes, of course. There are cards that do shut this deck down.

Let's be clear about what beats this deck.

- Keldeo is a powerful attacker even without Blastoise, If you kill Squirtles and they manually power a Keldeo, you're still in a trouble spot, but you'll have an end of the tunnel in sight.
- Keldeo doesn't always work. Sometimes it just fails.
- Garbodor really helps, preventing Rush In and Deluge from working. Keldeo can easily OHKO a Garbodor however so bear in mind that this isn't foolproof.
- Shaymin EX techs do not autowin this match, but if you KO their only powered Keldeo and prevent them from getting any more energy, you can definitely put them into a tailspin.

5. Is the deck inconsistent?
A: Sometimes it is. However, I noticed that if you get Keldeo EX in play, you might not need Blastoise for a little while.

Two different remarks. Firstly, a deck is not "sometimes inconsistent"; consistency is a blanket statement made about the deck's overall expected success. It either is, or isn't, or somewhere in between - it isn't sometimes good and sometimes bad.

Secondly, that observation you made is one that I also made, and should be very telling to you about Keldeo/Blastoise as a deck - namely, that Blastoise is not that needed, and that if Keldeo had a better partner, it would do very well without having to rely on a stage 2 and a million energy. I've tested some other combinations, but nothing really comes out well yet, especially after learning about the cuts from BCR.

I don't really want to tear apart your thoughts here PM and make you look bad but I just really question some of the points you are making here, and want to share the depth of my experience in testing this deck. I have been looking almost nonstop for a way to beat it, and it's just come down to "It's not very consistent and you can prey on that inconsistency" - and in finding that out I have learned a lot about the inner workings of my own list and why my previous lists failed so atrociously.
 
The amount of bad information in this thread is mind numbing. 15 water? No SSU? 2 super rod? I pray that people show up to cities with builds that bad.

I'm not even going to mention the fact that you'd even consider leaving the best attacker in the game (Mewtwo, I feel like I should probably point that out) out of a deck that can attach as much energy a turn as it can muster up. When combine with energy retrieval, I've consistently had mid-game turns where I'm deciding how to attach 4 energy.

You don't want SSU in this deck? If you don't have any way to prevent 2hko's from Darkrai or a way to deny prizes, your darkrai matchups will always be slanted.

If you're not outspeeding your opponent and you're not denying prizes, you're not winning in this format. Consistency doesn't matter if you can never be the fastest, hardest hitting deck in the format.
 
The amount of bad information in this thread is mind numbing. 15 water? No SSU? 2 super rod? I pray that people show up to cities with builds that bad.

I'm not even going to mention the fact that you'd even consider leaving the best attacker in the game (Mewtwo, I feel like I should probably point that out) out of a deck that can attach as much energy a turn as it can muster up. When combine with energy retrieval, I've consistently had mid-game turns where I'm deciding how to attach 4 energy.

You don't want SSU in this deck? If you don't have any way to prevent 2hko's from Darkrai or a way to deny prizes, your darkrai matchups will always be slanted.

If you're not outspeeding your opponent and you're not denying prizes, you're not winning in this format. Consistency doesn't matter if you can never be the fastest, hardest hitting deck in the format.

Of course people will show up to Cities with "builds this bad", nobody really knows how to play the deck yet. I haven't made a list more consistent than mine and I don't feel comfortable cutting anything after having played it extensively. So this is as far as I, personally, go. If you're going to call us out for doing terribly how about you share a list?

To answer some of your other questions...
- No room for Mewtwo. Keldeo does more damage than Mewtwo in most situations unless you have less than 2-3 energy in play to attach, in which case you have other troubles to worry about anyway. It's a valid inclusion if you somehow have room, but not as good as it is in other decks, because Keldeo actually does a fine job as an attacker on its own.
- I do want SSU. I don't have room for it. Find 3-4 cards to cut from the list and show me where I am going wrong. (You have some other stuff you want to include so those 3-4 is just the start!)

"Consistency doesn't matter if you can never be the fastest, hardest hitting deck in the format." Considering that consistency is often a concept equated or correlated with speed, I'm not sure I understand you are saying, and I think you might have misspoken somewhere. I would like you to review this statement and rephrase it in away that makes some more sense.

Also, again, if you'd like to discuss how bad our lists are, it'd be nice to see yours for reference. Nobody's enemies here.

I just cannot see how you can play blastoise effectively without ssu, it helps your darkrai match up so much

Me neither, but I can't find space.
 
Last edited:
I recently played against a Keldeo that had techs and blastoise. It got blastoise T2 2/2 games I think. That or one was turn 3. Anyway it gave me a run for my money, but didn't win. I seriously see the right build doing well, but I am not completely sure about the consistency/tech problem.
 
After play the deck extensively online since the scans of the cards came out, I feel like this deck will wind up having the same fate that LostGar and Garchomp/Altaria had back then. The deck is too slow, it loses to Darkrai variants, Hydreigon/Darkrai, and Garbodor variants. It is too dependent on Blastoise to have the deck even function properly. On average, I seem to get Blastoise on Turn 4, which is very hard to come by. Sigilyph destroys this deck alone because most of the of the main attackers are EX Pokemon. Most of the time, I can't seem to attack at all until turn 3 and the deck has no recovery at all if you don't have Blastoise in play. The only thing the deck has going is that Landorus ex is weak to water. Even with it, your opponent will run Mewtwo ex, which gives the deck a lot of trouble, or Garchomp for that matter.


What your thoughts?

You are 100% correct Keldeo and Blastoise suck big time...how about this, you give me all the copies you own and I'll get rid of them for you. Sound good?
 
1) This is an "old" deck in that the basic mechanics of it have been with the game since the beginning.

2) "Consistency" is an inconsistent term in TCGs.

Deluge is an improved Rain Dance, and Base Set Blastoise starred in Rain Dance decks even before it had big, basic Pokémon as partners. It was much weaker when players had to run Blastoise with Base Set Gyarados and Dewgong, but it happened. Third set/second expansion released (Fossil) gave us two big, Basic Water-Type Pokémon in Lapras and Articuno. Even many Trainers we use now had counterparts show up in the first four sets.

Keldeo EX is a new Pokémon, but the "big Basic attacker" for this kind of deck is old hat. Step In is an important Ability but it is needed, since the "classic" style Rain Dance deck doesn't seem to work anymore, probably because it isn't backed by Computer Search and Professor Oak in their classic forms. Remember that Unlimited didn't die to Modified, and that Rain Dance was getting upgraded all the time until probably the rise of Sabledonk.

Some upgrades included attackers that do compare to Keldeo EX. Attackers like Suicune ex would rival, perhaps eclipse Keldeo EX if you could update its HP and damage output. In fact, even without modifying the damage output, just comparing attacks Reverse Stream is superior to Secret Sword. The only downside to bouncing Energy from it for more, controlled damage is you might get hit by an N. Even that isn't horrible since nothing says you have to bounce all Energy back into hand.

As for consistency, some use it for consistent "wins" and some for consistent "set-ups", and some for consistency in specific aspects of those (like speed). Some of this is because being consistent in setting up, or being consistently fast, or consistently dealing out high damage, or consistently enjoying favorable match-ups etc. all yield consistent wins.

I would suggest players be more explicit when using the term.
 
keldeo debate please!

hey,

could somebody please explain to me why keldeo is so good as everybody says it is?

i mean really, come on, that card/deck is so overrated!

against hydregion/darkrai it gets beaten up, against garbadour it doesn't stand a chance, quaza will probably beat it easily too? so why is this deck ooooh so good as people says?

IMO this is a tier 2 deck the highest! maybe only tier 3, it is not going to win a tourny by beating these decks in matches where skill is needed, it will only beat them where it is lucky to start up waaaaaaayyyy faster then the opponent.
 
Turn 2 150+ damage isn't good enough for you?

Darkrai has to get out a Stage 2 before you do, making it a gamble on who sets up first. But once you're set up, you're oneshotting Darkrais while they are MAYBE twoshotting you. Yes, the spread damage is annoying and might cost you a prize or two, but in the longrun it's not a hard matchup.

Garbodor is a harder matchup, but with 3 energy Keldeo's swinging for 110, and with 4 it OHKOes Terrakions (the attacker of choice for Garbodor decks most of the time).

Quaza has to discard 3 energy to kill it. Keldeo just needs to get set up before the Quaza player has 3 Eels out. Depending on the build, turn 2 setup is not uncommon.
 
Back
Top