Bluffing?

[Kayle]

ha ha ha, oh wow, this thread.


Bluffing is:
- Part of the card game
- A legitimate strategy
- Difficult to achieve w/o moving into 'unsportsmanly conduct' and therefore must be treated with care

Power spray is a card that demands bluffing. Before its existence, your opponent was never required to ask you for permission to do anything - in fact, interaction between the players was very minimal. As soon as that interaction came to be, however, it became a front on which people can play and win, just like the rest of the card game.

I'm sure I've lost games because I will focus out when playing an SP deck and forget that Spray might be an option, just because I don't have any in my hand. If I were much smarter, I could sit attentive and pretend to have a Spray, so that when my opponent uses Cosmic Power, they pause and look at me, and I can study their field intently (good chance to spot something you missed!) while pretending to be evaluating whether or not to spray - when, in fact, I do not have a Spray. The extra pressure I put on my opponent just by looking like I could stop a critical power can be very helpful.

 

[DukeFireBird]

Your opponents shouldnt be asking for permission, They should simply state the power, then start to use it.

The player who has spray, should be ready to spray

 

[billbilski]

You all are looking way too deeply into this.

The best thing to do is ask yourself... Would you want your opponent to do this to you? If the answer is no, then DONT DO IT.

The Golden Rule - Common sense is alive and well. Very Very good. As I said, every opponent is different... some will be annoyed by talk others welcome it. Some like the mind games others want nothing to do with them... As always in life respect each other and have fun while you are competing. Getting caught up in rules lawyering is a murky and often futile attempt to define the undefinable. Do your best to avoid having judges even consider making these kind of decisions by remembering the golden rule. If there were penalties dished out for every instance an opponent tried to bluff or subtly decieve as a purely tactival ploy most of the good players I've known over the years would have been hammered...

 

[AzNightmare]

Your opponents shouldnt be asking for permission, They should simply state the power, then start to use it.

The player who has spray, should be ready to spray

Agree. Infact, the sprayer better intercept fast. As in, right when the power is announced. I have the
"Right of Way" so I'm just gonna perform the effect. I'm not going to look at my opponent and wait for a
reaction. Because once I put 2 cards under the deck and start drawing, I'm not gonna want to go backwards.
(What's the ruling on this btw? How much time does the sprayer have? and can games do a rollback?)

honestly it a part of the game today in the master divsion, most of us dont play bc where nerdy kids we play to win trips like to hawii and for those big schoolarships let face it if someone us need that money to goto collage very badly.

Can you explain that again?? I couldn't understand your post.

 

[idahodarkhorsejustbelieve]

i agree i lost a game at state last year bc i ask if my oppent was going to spray me.

 

[tehmoe]

so i can't play with my hand being publicly displayed?

not saying that i would, just a question in itself.

 

[idahodarkhorsejustbelieve]

when ever my oppent use a power i always look through it and tell them im not going to spray that power at the moment.
normaly i like to save my sprays for the most important power to stop, which is brongzong g in my menta game. sometimes u make someone burn a poketurn or 2 doing that

 

[AzNightmare]

when ever my oppent use a power i always look through it and tell them im not going to spray that power at the moment.
normaly i like to save my sprays for the most important power to stop, which is brongzong g in my menta game. sometimes u make someone burn a poketurn or 2 doing that

It's rather strange that you have to actually tell someone you're not going to spray them at the moment.
You're supposed to only tell them when you do decide to spray them.

Unless you initiated the conversation and stated "I will not Spray that Power at the moment."
(when you really didn't have the card in your hand anyway)
This would be a misleading bluff.
It's quite clever in my opinion, but against the rules according to what this thread is talking about.

 

[FunnyBear]

Your opponents shouldnt be asking for permission, They should simply state the power, then start to use it.

The player who has spray, should be ready to spray

Its quite common around here to state powers with an upwards inflection in the voice, as if asking permission. I've also had opponent's say "Cosmic, you gonna spray it?" before putting the cards under. Its faster than playing at a slow pace to make sure you've allowed enough time to respond, and it avoids ambiguity about if you've allowed enough time to respond.

 

[yoyofsho16]

Bluffing is a strategy. There's a difference between a straight lie and a legal bluff. A legal bluff is the example with Steven Silvestro. It would be against the rules had he said, "Oh shoot, the Luxray is in my prizes!"

Bluffing is a strategy in every competitively played game. Whether it's setting up a false strategy in chess, or putting a poker face on, or getting your opponent to spray Azelf, it's a HUGE part of the "better" players' repertoire.

I mean, how many times have you had an opponent waste their Power Spray on a Power that APPEARED crucial? That's bluffing.

 

[Kayle]

Your opponents shouldnt be asking for permission, They should simply state the power, then start to use it.

The player who has spray, should be ready to spray

There is supposed to be a delay of a few seconds in which you wait for your opponent to declare the intent to Spray. Most polite opponents will actually wait for you to say "Go ahead" (pretty much everyone I've ever played). I call this 'asking for permission'. Though you are right, technically, that is unnecessary.

The Golden Rule doesn't apply well to games. Would I want my opponent to bluff? Nope. I don't want my opponent to play their hardest to beat me. So?

 

[yoyofsho16]

There is supposed to be a delay of a few seconds in which you wait for your opponent to declare the intent to Spray. Most polite opponents will actually wait for you to say "Go ahead" (pretty much everyone I've ever played). I call this 'asking for permission'. Though you are right, technically, that is unnecessary.

The Golden Rule doesn't apply well to games. Would I want my opponent to bluff? Nope. I don't want my opponent to play their hardest to beat me. So?

Yeaaah, I agree.
You shouldn't just say "CosmicpowerTwoOnTheBottomForFourMoreCards." It makes more confusion. I guess you shouldn't be required to wait a second, but it's kind to do so.

 

[DarthPika]

There is supposed to be a delay of a few seconds in which you wait for your opponent to declare the intent to Spray. Most polite opponents will actually wait for you to say "Go ahead" (pretty much everyone I've ever played). I call this 'asking for permission'. Though you are right, technically, that is unnecessary.

The Golden Rule doesn't apply well to games. Would I want my opponent to bluff? Nope. I don't want my opponent to play their hardest to beat me. So?

If I'm using SP, I'll be watching for my opponent to pause and look at me before playing a power. When they do, I'll let them know if I'm going to let them use it or not. To vary things a bit, I do often pause a second before giving an answer to make them consider that I may have one in my hand, even if they do get to use the power. It's pretty much just a game of keep them guessing when it comes to power spray IMO.

 

[Qwachansey]

If you pay attention to bluffs, they are not as hard to uncover as you might think.

Example: I used the power - spray bluff recently.

Seems normal. But I was playing Kingdra. And I don't even use Crobat G!

If my opponent had just payed a little attention, they might not have made that mistake!

 

[ShadowCard]

Bluffing is a strategy. There's a difference between a straight lie and a legal bluff. A legal bluff is the example with Steven Silvestro. It would be against the rules had he said, "Oh shoot, the Luxray is in my prizes!"

Bluffing is a strategy in every competitively played game. Whether it's setting up a false strategy in chess, or putting a poker face on, or getting your opponent to spray Azelf, it's a HUGE part of the "better" players' repertoire.

The question here is "is there such a thing as a 'legal' bluff"? No one is questioning that lying bad. If, in the OP, a sigh or eyeroll had been used to communicate something ambiguous that the opponent may interpret as the Luxray lvX being prized, is that legal?

Is there a difference in strategically using the cards to trick your opponent and using a "tell" to trick your opponent? Are they taken from the same cloth?

Look at your chess example: you're using the chess pieces to create a trick, right? You're not using "tells" or other kinds of non-piece interactions to create a trick. Is that even called a "bluff"?

So, a player is allowed to make a play that puts an idea in the opponent's head about what may be happening. When the player starts to use tells is when things become grey.

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

Agree. Infact, the sprayer better intercept fast. As in, right when the power is announced. I have the
"Right of Way" so I'm just gonna perform the effect. I'm not going to look at my opponent and wait for a
reaction. Because once I put 2 cards under the deck and start drawing, I'm not gonna want to go backwards.

Your statement about "right of way" is precisely in opposition to the current ruling, as I understand. Which is to say, if you blitz through a Cosmic when they had the capability to spray, that's rushing on your part, and penalties will accrue. What penalties, and if severity increases with intent to bypass a possible Power Spray I know not, but merely that what you did was a penalty (and one that is problematic to reverse, game-state wise, as now you have unlawful knowledge of what's coming your way in the draw department).

 

[Jane]

holy smokes that was a long read...

ANNYWAYS. I think a couple things that can be learned from this is that lying=bad, and to solve an issue where someone did in fact lie, it is up to you to notify a judge, and see what happens.

Bluffing (on the other hand)=card games.......
.....
I guess...
When I play my roseannes and my opponent says they would've played that cyrus differently last turn (i.e. perhaps they meant taking a power spray rather than that energy gain they took) and I go for the uxie because they said that, INSTEAD of getting a chatot, that is my problem that they have a spray in their hand. It was totally legit, because he can mean it in a different way than how I interpreted it (and did in fact >.<) but yes, yes it sucked. very much.

On a different topic that was talked about in this thread, I think fishing for information is really...annoying.
If someone comes up to me between rounds and asks me what a certain line of pokemon in my deck is (i.e. do you actually run a 2-2 garchomp C line???!!) waht the frickity frack am i supposed to say? If I say "no" I am lying(=bad). If I say yes I give away a potentially very important strategy in my deck. If I say nothing then that means I know I can't lie, but I know I can't give away a part of my deck. No matter what I do, an average person can tell that I have a 2-2 line in my deck if he asks it like that.

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

If someone comes up to me between rounds and asks me what a certain line of pokemon in my deck is (i.e. do you actually run a 2-2 garchomp C line???!!) waht the frickity frack am i supposed to say? If I say "no" I am lying(=bad). If I say yes I give away a potentially very important strategy in my deck. If I say nothing then that means I know I can't lie, but I know I can't give away a part of my deck. No matter what I do, an average person can tell that I have a 2-2 line in my deck if he asks it like that.

As if they wouldn't have scouted it out already. :/

 

[ShadowCard]

Bluffing (on the other hand)=card games.......
.....
I guess...
When I play my roseannes and my opponent says they would've played that cyrus differently last turn (i.e. perhaps they meant taking a power spray rather than that energy gain they took) and I go for the uxie because they said that, INSTEAD of getting a chatot, that is my problem that they have a spray in their hand. It was totally legit, because he can mean it in a different way than how I interpreted it (and did in fact >.<) but yes, yes it sucked. very much.

That actually sounds like it could be a verbal bluff. If "oh shoot!" is questionable, how is this not questionable?

 

[Box of Fail]

The best thing to do is ask yourself... Would you want your opponent to do this to you? If the answer is no, then DONT DO IT.

And if I found it perfectly fine and, in fact, clever?

I don't want my opponent to donk me, and yet I'll do it given the chance. Is that somehow wrong?

On a different topic that was talked about in this thread, I think fishing for information is really...annoying.
If someone comes up to me between rounds and asks me what a certain line of pokemon in my deck is (i.e. do you actually run a 2-2 garchomp C line???!!) waht the frickity frack am i supposed to say? If I say "no" I am lying(=bad). If I say yes I give away a potentially very important strategy in my deck. If I say nothing then that means I know I can't lie, but I know I can't give away a part of my deck. No matter what I do, an average person can tell that I have a 2-2 line in my deck if he asks it like that.

Between rounds, lying about your deck and its contents is totally legal. I've had someone lie to me about what they were playing before setup at Nats to affect my starting Pokémon decision. But we hadn't drawn our seven yet. As long as the game hasn't actually started, it's totally fine to lie and decieve your opponent however you want. I don't do it, as I am awful at bluffing, but it's 100% legit.

During the round is when it becomes an issue. If, during a match, I remember that between rounds you told me you tech Dusknoir when you actually don't, and play with 3 benched Pokémon throughout the game as a result, that is 100% my problem. If you tell me you tech Dusknoir DURING A MATCH, SoTG comes into play.