Bluffing?

[gashmoigidy]

I constantly do this kind of thing. A great loophole is not saying anything. What I have done all the time playing gyarados. I have 3 karp in discard, gyra active, crobat bench. They have luxray x active. I'd look sad and flip through the cards in my hand. I'd poke turn and say flash bite in a really weak voice like I have nothing. 80% of the time they let it go. I then drop a bucks. The look on there faces... ask stevo0236 done this to him a bazillion times.

Bluffing is a awesome weapon for a good player. Just keep it on the DL. Don't lie, just don't say everything outright.

 

[Lawman]

holy smokes that was a long read...

ANNYWAYS. I think a couple things that can be learned from this is that lying=bad, and to solve an issue where someone did in fact lie, it is up to you to notify a judge, and see what happens.

Bluffing (on the other hand)=card games.......
.....
I guess...
When I play my roseannes and my opponent says they would've played that cyrus differently last turn (i.e. perhaps they meant taking a power spray rather than that energy gain they took) and I go for the uxie because they said that, INSTEAD of getting a chatot, that is my problem that they have a spray in their hand. It was totally legit, because he can mean it in a different way than how I interpreted it (and did in fact >.<) but yes, yes it sucked. very much.

On a different topic that was talked about in this thread, I think fishing for information is really...annoying.
If someone comes up to me between rounds and asks me what a certain line of pokemon in my deck is (i.e. do you actually run a 2-2 garchomp C line???!!) waht the frickity frack am i supposed to say? If I say "no" I am lying(=bad). If I say yes I give away a potentially very important strategy in my deck. If I say nothing then that means I know I can't lie, but I know I can't give away a part of my deck. No matter what I do, an average person can tell that I have a 2-2 line in my deck if he asks it like that.

You politely tell them that you do not have to answer that question.

Keith

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

And if I found it perfectly fine and, in fact, clever?

I don't want my opponent to donk me, and yet I'll do it given the chance. Is that somehow wrong?



I've had someone lie to me about what they were playing before setup at Nats to affect my starting Pokémon decision. But we hadn't drawn our seven yet. As long as the game hasn't actually started, it's totally fine to lie and decieve your opponent however you want. I don't do it, as I am awful at bluffing, but it's 100% legit.

During the round is when it becomes an issue. If, during a match, I remember that between rounds you told me you tech Dusknoir when you actually don't, and play with 3 benched Pokémon throughout the game as a result, that is 100% my problem. If you tell me you tech Dusknoir DURING A MATCH, SoTG comes into play.

In red above is flat out a situation that a judge should have been called over. Your oppo did a dubious action intended to influence your playing. And it did! You can be penalized for actions between rds or even before a tourney begins! Last yr @ Worlds, a player on the rail, watching a friend in the LCQ (he had a seat in the main event already), told his friend something that affected the game state. As the judge that was called over, I confirmed the act, then went to Dave S to ask if a penalty can/should be given to the person giving the advice. I was told to find said player and give him a warning for tomorrow's main event.

Keith

 

[ShadowCard]

In red above is flat out a situation that a judge should have been called over. Your oppo did a dubious action intended to influence your playing. And it did!

Lawman, I think that's misapplying the rule.

Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.

Is lying to your opponent between rounds a game action?
Perhaps a penalty for simply lying would be better instead of trying to encase it within the "dubious game actions" example? Maybe call it under intimidation?

As the judge that was called over, I confirmed the act, then went to Dave S to ask if a penalty can/should be given to the person giving the advice. I was told to find said player and give him a warning for tomorrow's main event.

Wouldn't that be from the Lasting Consequences section since it is a penalty applying over multiple events? In this case, Dave on staff to authorize it allowed you to do it, but it couldn't be done at an event without a POP member on site. Between rounds, okay, but carrying the penalty over into another event is outside of a judge's ability without POP authorization.

 

[ChaosJim]

Shadow, Dave S is from POP, it was talking about the Grinder and Worlds, Essentially, Day 0 and Days 1 and 2 of the same event.

I hear you on the dubious game actions penalty. I think it falls into the realm of the truly unenforceable though. If you ask me at Nationals if I have a Pikachu in my deck, I can say yes. I haven't confirmed its the deck I'm using at Nationals. Maybe if you asked if it was in my Nationals deck, I meant from a different year. It goes on and on. "I didn't think it was a serious question, I didn't give it a serious answer." Comes to mind. I don't think it changes much if someone is trying to throw out information about their own deck instead of being asked questions.

 

[Lawman]

The part I bolded was meant to just include the set up portion of the paragraph. That is part of the GAME....set up. If the player lied to you then to gain an advantage, THAT can be penalized. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Keith

 

[The Dark Toxicroak]

That actually sounds like it could be a verbal bluff. If "oh shoot!" is questionable, how is this not questionable?

I was the one with the verbal bluff. I knew he had 3 uxies I knew he could of roseannes for 2. It definitely would of been an overall better move for me to get another spray, I say wow I probably should of played that differently.

but really it is true. I should of. Did I influence his gameplay.... mmmm maybe? Maybe not. Was I attempting to.... ummm no not really. Also I could of gotten the wrong supporter or anything.... I might of been thinking about a previous rounds misplay various other things....

Can you enforce not saying anything at the tables because that is what will need to be done if this is illegal. Anything could be called as cheating.

 

[AzNightmare]

Your statement about "right of way" is precisely in opposition to the current ruling, as I understand. Which is to say, if you blitz through a Cosmic when they had the capability to spray, that's rushing on your part, and penalties will accrue. What penalties, and if severity increases with intent to bypass a possible Power Spray I know not, but merely that what you did was a penalty (and one that is problematic to reverse, game-state wise, as now you have unlawful knowledge of what's coming your way in the draw department).

It's not really blitzing through with the intention of not giving a player time. (We're still playing at normal pace here).
I simply think the player with Power Spray should be prepared to play it, and act upon it when the
PokePower is called to be used.

.....
I guess...
When I play my roseannes and my opponent says they would've played that cyrus differently last turn (i.e. perhaps they meant taking a power spray rather than that energy gain they took) and I go for the uxie because they said that, INSTEAD of getting a chatot, that is my problem that they have a spray in their hand. It was totally legit, because he can mean it in a different way than how I interpreted it (and did in fact >.<) but yes, yes it sucked. very much.

On a different topic that was talked about in this thread, I think fishing for information is really...annoying.
If someone comes up to me between rounds and asks me what a certain line of pokemon in my deck is (i.e. do you actually run a 2-2 garchomp C line???!!) waht the frickity frack am i supposed to say? If I say "no" I am lying(=bad). If I say yes I give away a potentially very important strategy in my deck. If I say nothing then that means I know I can't lie, but I know I can't give away a part of my deck. No matter what I do, an average person can tell that I have a 2-2 line in my deck if he asks it like that.

In a sense, this could be friendly advice (although given at the wrong time).
And it can easily be interpreted as a form of "trash talking" almost. I would find this impolite, although
if my opponent wants to play it that way, I wouldn't exactly call it a foul, but more of an annoyance.
But I'm a guy that's "okay" with trash talking. I would just lose a bit of respect for his sportsmanship at
the end of the day. (see "Phil Hellmuth" from Poker)

Next, if someone came up to ask me what kind of deck I was using. First of all, I find this really annoying.
People shouldn't be doing this, and I would never do this to someone else. Maybe only if I know my
opponent on a friend level. And if anyone were to ask me about my deck, I would simply reply, "You'll find
out when we battle " Usually that's all it takes to make them go away. You never lied, and no info
exposed. Just like that. I don't mind if someone scouts me to see what kind of deck I'm using. You do the
research yourself and find out. But don't come asking me.

Between rounds, lying about your deck and its contents is totally legal. I've had someone lie to me about what they were playing before setup at Nats to affect my starting Pokémon decision. But we hadn't drawn our seven yet. As long as the game hasn't actually started, it's totally fine to lie and decieve your opponent however you want. I don't do it, as I am awful at bluffing, but it's 100% legit.

Same principle as what I said earlier, I wouldn't have asked anyone what deck they were using. (I would
try to find out on my own). And if they decided to tell me on their own, then I would be quite suspicious
this guy is not telling the truth. Anything my opponents tell me prior and during my battle will be
considered Donkey-crap to me, until proven otherwise. That's my philosophy anyway.

 

[SLOW DECK]

The part I bolded was meant to just include the set up portion of the paragraph. That is part of the GAME....set up. If the player lied to you then to gain an advantage, THAT can be penalized. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Keith

subterfuge (countable and uncountable; plural subterfuges)

(countable) An indirect or deceptive device or stratagem; a blind. Refers especially to war and politics.
The Japanese's subterfuge in World War II caused the Americans to lose the battle.
(uncountable) Deception; misrepresentation of the true nature of an activity.

The between rounds and before match subterfuge is something that the player base has to deal with. People are constantly trying to draw out the deck's from the field. At times it could just be people walking around watching what people are filing out deck lists, to make some last second tweeks to their decks. Between rounds they will ask friends what is Johnny playing today, trying to get at the major players in each event what they are playing. The only time this matters to most of us is in top cut, so we have some clue about match ups.

Keith, you are saying that if someone asks me a direct question on what cards are in my deck, (IE a Lawyer doing some sort of Legal discovery) I can either
1. Answer him truthfully
2. Answer I take the 5th.
3. Give or Misleading and coy replay. but would be CONSIDERED CHEATING.
4. Glare at him for asking such a personal question, and play the entire match under an aura of nastiness.

This isn't a legal discovery. Darn Lawyers (Picking on Lawyers and Judges are easy, my father was one, so I can ran't), Since in fairness, the person SHOULD NOT BE ASKING THE QUESTION IN THE FIRST PLACE, so that question/inquires itself deserves a penalty, and since people are NOT going raise there hand and said Judge, he asked me about the deck, the players will give coy answers that could or could not have any truth. Again, you would have to hundreds,penalize between each round if you did have penalties for asking people to reveal things about yours or others decks.

Timing...what is the difference if the conversation starts with my opponent at the pairing's sheet and we do the dialouge of trying to figure out what each are playing as we are walking with each other to the table. We sit down ... Still talking, we pull out our decks... Still talking... We start shuffling.. (when did we enter the set up time?)... Offer our opponents to cut... still talking...etc.. Begin the match is really practical time to hold players to start the match game actions.

Some of our questions are indirect questions, like who did you play last round... What were "they" playing..Looking for an indirect slip of clues on their decks, and obviously their opponents decks.
....
Players are BIG people, they can handle themselves between rounds. Coy dialouge, and the subterfuge that is exchange is great part of the tournament experience. Never heard anyone say judges need to do a better job here. We enjoy this game and the way it is played, and the friendly banter that goes on around the game.

 

[Yoshi-]

And what can a judge do if I say something that makes my opponent think that a card is not there cause I forgot its in my hand? And then I play Azelf without seeing its in my hand.
A judge can not interpret your actions, if you say something that might be for a thousand reasons, maybe you just noticed something else is priced?

 

[NoPoke]

Intent matters.
Keep a pure heart.
What would Jesus do?

=======

Just because you can't easily determine intent does not make lieing acceptable. Finding edge cases where players are seeking information that they don't have a right too does not make lieing acceptable either. There are more ways of answering such questions than the two extremes of full disclosure and silence.

Playing a tcg is supposed to be a social activity. Keep it fun friendly and fair and there won't be any problems.

Stay away from the dark side

 

[billbilski]

Players are BIG people, they can handle themselves between rounds. Coy dialouge, and the subterfuge that is exchange is great part of the tournament experience. Never heard anyone say judges need to do a better job here. We enjoy this game and the way it is played, and the friendly banter that goes on around the game.

My point exactly. If I say to a player I am familiar with during the game -"You're playing dialga huh? I'm glad I teched in that Blaze"(I, of course am lying). This is done both in good fun and in an attempt to create a little doubt. This goes on all the time.... I'm sooooo guilty for make these kind of smart alek comments with players in our cirlce and they of course return the favor. I still refuse to see the harm in this kind of lie.....This is in no way shape or form equal to lying about the number of cards in your hand etc.... Everyone knows I play atypical lists and it is just plain fun to keep them guessing as to what kind of craziness I might be playing.. so a subtle comment like"I haven't seen a plus power all game", when I don't play them in this deck, is fun..... This kind of banter is sometimes the best part of the day... I think everyone knows that anything anyone says about their deck is supect at best. I hope to god that if you and I are playing a game and I ask you if you are playing that stupid Dusknoir and you lie to me by saying of course why wouldn't I?, that you aren't penalized..... Please......that might be the last time I play this game.

 

[The Dark Toxicroak]

Wow. Going up and talking to someone about there deck is so dumb and really shouldn`t happen at a until the tournament is over. There is a difference from asking someone else who played them about the deck because chances are they haven`t seen it all. To actually go up to some one and be like What are you playing or saying what they are playing.... well 1) A box of my dads old tools is the answer to the first question. 2) If someone came up to me saying a specific tech and telling me they have a counter I would be thinking wow you have problems.

This is information the shouldn`t be asked for but potentially given willingly. If I am telling someone I won my last match because of a tech or such is fine.

An opponent coming up to you and saying you run 2-2 or something shouldn`t be happening and it pointless? Its great to have a pokerface but it shouldn't be required in Pokemon and you shouldn't ever be forced to lie.

Plus everyone who plays vs SP must be doing it wrong. Always expect at least one spray until they run out or you literally know they don't have one or they are out. VS sp if you have a good memory... since most decks don't have Claydol you can keep a good track of whats in their hand pretty easily....

I do think that power spray does add to bluffing a lot. However I am just going to use a power anyways and set it up so it is very hard to Spray 1 thing with it having a useful effect. They will run out eventually.

 

[Jane]

It's not really blitzing through with the intention of not giving a player time. (We're still playing at normal pace here).
I simply think the player with Power Spray should be prepared to play it, and act upon it when the
PokePower is called to be used.



In a sense, this could be friendly advice (although given at the wrong time).
And it can easily be interpreted as a form of "trash talking" almost. I would find this impolite, although
if my opponent wants to play it that way, I wouldn't exactly call it a foul, but more of an annoyance.
But I'm a guy that's "okay" with trash talking. I would just lose a bit of respect for his sportsmanship at
the end of the day. (see "Phil Hellmuth" from Poker)

Next, if someone came up to ask me what kind of deck I was using. First of all, I find this really annoying.
People shouldn't be doing this, and I would never do this to someone else. Maybe only if I know my
opponent on a friend level. And if anyone were to ask me about my deck, I would simply reply, "You'll find
out when we battle " Usually that's all it takes to make them go away. You never lied, and no info
exposed. Just like that. I don't mind if someone scouts me to see what kind of deck I'm using. You do the
research yourself and find out. But don't come asking me.



Same principle as what I said earlier, I wouldn't have asked anyone what deck they were using. (I would
try to find out on my own). And if they decided to tell me on their own, then I would be quite suspicious
this guy is not telling the truth. Anything my opponents tell me prior and during my battle will be
considered Donkey-crap to me, until proven otherwise. That's my philosophy anyway.

that's sound advice, and I enjoy the hellmuth comment

sometimes during friendly conversation also whoever I'm talking to gets all suspicious, when there is no malicious intent even unfortunately.
There is a fine line between lying and bluffing, and for the most part you will have to leave it to karma to nail them ...
Dubious things happen in games cause people want to win really badly, and some don't know how to win certain games without lying I guess SOMETIMES (I don't mean to offend anyone here)

 

[SLOW DECK]

Not many people will come out and ask "What deck are you playing today?"

People ask and have "indirect" conversations:

Player: "Who did you play so far"?
Reply "I played Jimmy, Jason, and Alex."
Player: What was Alex playing today?
Reply "He was playing Kingdra again?, and I was able to beat him by......"
Funning thing is we are often willing to talk about the match a bit, because we like to. That conversation is interesting if they did have a nice match. They might or might not talk about details of the match that gives up some information, like I was able to Power Spray his Uxie and he couldn't get set up..., or my Flygon LvL X was prized, thus I lost. Information is collected by us in a FUN conversation about our's and our opponent social conversation.

No DIRECT question about "What deck are you playing", but fun dialouge that is also way for both players to give coy answers to there matches' without revealing too much of there deck. That is what is DONE, does anyone disagree?

People aren't engaging in this Banter because they hate their opponents, and need to win at all costs. People(both) engage in this conversations because they enjoy talking pokemon and enjoy playing these "share but don't share too much" dialouge. Again, this is GOOD.

Judges, all of this information gathering banter ussually doesn't amount to a hill of beans in terms having any sort of advantage. But it is fun, and I would suggest stay out.

GET BACK TO THE BIG PICTURE HERE. This is just a game, and the reason most Master's play this silly child card game is that it is a combination of poker and chess. Poker part isn't the odds, it is about reading your opponent, there game and non game actions, to gleam intent. By playing poker like bluff, you can bluff your opponent into playing cautiously or aggressively, and trap them. This is the strategy part of the game.

 

[Lawman]

@Slow Deck/Rob: Look at the portion I put in red. Box of Fail is a SR player. This is not a MA player. He stated that during set up @ Nats last year, an oppo told him he was playing X deck, trying to influence which starter he may use. He "fell" for the trick and the oppo had an advantage.

What I am saying is this type of dubious action is harmful to the game and was intended to make the other player play differently. And Box said he DID place a diff starter up. No different that the dark palm Dusky laying face up on the side of the table like an outside reference. Even if said player never stated out loud, that is my outside ref, the other player WILL be influenced by it sitting there. In fact, a SR player was DQ'd at Worlds last yr bc of this issue w/ Dusky. They didnt have Dusky in their deck and were 4-1 at the time of the DQ.

I hope you see the difference here vs walking around between rds, talking to friends and others about match-ups, so and so is playing Kingdra, Y is playing Palkia lock, Z is playing Dialga tank, C is playing SP tool box, G is playing Gengar, L is playing LuxRay, etc etc etc. That is not ag'st the rules. If a player asks me what I am playing, I normally answer "a 60 card pokemon deck" and smile. You dont have to answer is the bottom line. IMO, it is OK to see the matchups, recall that Bobby (a friend) played your oppo rd 3 and you go find Bobby and say, hey, what is ABC playing? Any techs to worry about, etc. You havent made it to the table yet to set up and influence your oppo. I'm not saying that everything that is said and done between rds is unpunishable. (ie Player Z drops a F-bomb in the area that is audible by others, that can punished)

Hope that helps to explain my position.

Keith

 

[ShadowCard]

The part I bolded was meant to just include the set up portion of the paragraph. That is part of the GAME....set up. If the player lied to you then to gain an advantage, THAT can be penalized. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Ah. In that case, yes, dubious game action definitely!

In fact, a SR player was DQ'd at Worlds last yr bc of this issue w/ Dusky. They didnt have Dusky in their deck and were 4-1 at the time of the DQ.

I thought it was because he had a reference for the wrong dusknoir. Like, he had a dusknoir in his deck but the reference he was using wasn't correct for the dusknoir in the deck.

Can you enforce not saying anything at the tables because that is what will need to be done if this is illegal. Anything could be called as cheating.

I suppose it could be requested that table talk be restricted to game actions and game state. However, as ryanvergel said a few pages back, that would not be a very fun game of Pokemon. It could actually make for a very tense game.

 

[billbilski]

Let me be devils advocate for a moment. Players have the right to truth in what is considered public knowledge i.e. cards played, discard pile,number of cards in hand etc.... In some cases when the game dictates it this includes hand and deck i.e. lookers or future sight. Outside of those, your hand and deck are private and card rulings have clearly shown this to be true. Opponents have no right to that information and if it is volunteered, it is in essence void of any truth or deceit and should sound like charlie browns teacher when uttered. In essence it is not recognized at all by the game unless the game says it should. In Box of Fail's situation, what a player says about his deck outside of the game's paramaters should be disregarded - it is not a required by the game to be true or false. I agree it's a cheap manuver and should be discouraged, but common sense should tell you not to believe things you are unable to prove, especially during a competative tourney against people you've never met.....My son just entered seniors and I'm certain he would blame himself in that situation and not his opponent....

 

[SLOW DECK]

Thanks Keith. I do see your point. Big Difference on this. I am a lazy reader on some days, so I will take a hit on this.

We are dancing around an Unwritten Code of Player's conduct. Since all of this stuff is unwritten, (all the stuff that is missing from the tournament rules and penalty guidelines that majority of players abide to), it is hard for us to agree upon or have judges rule upon it. I think about the movie Hook, where Dustin Hoffman (HOOK), talks about "Good Form" in his battle with Peter Pan (Robin Williams). "Good Form Peter", when Hook drops his sword and Peter Pan returns it to him so that they could continue there sword fight.

On your specific case that I missed. There are three distinctions that a Bluff may have, but when you hit all three hard, it stinks of poor form.
1. Unsolicited.
2. Specific.
3. 100% Lie.

To sit down at a match and unsolicitedly blurt out that I am playing Speedril today, and you are not. That hit all three.

Three strikes you are out maybe. This Bluffing issue has raised three areas about the bluff being legit or not.
1. Unsolicited versus solicited. If someone is bold enough to ask a specific question, most of us think that a coy answer could be an appropriate response. To provide an unsolicited misleading information about a deck, to most isn’t good form.
2. Specific versus Unspecific Information – To mislead someone by giving specific misinformation seems to be worst than giving a coy answer that a player can interpret themselves. Vague and unspecific information that requires others to interpret is usually how we play this game. To “say” both of my Claydols is prize versus implying your prizes are bad, by frowns, grunts, and ah shawks.
3. Truth, Half-Truth, Bold Face Lie. We play these games by giving half truth, or say "maybe" to that dusknoir question... with a coy smile on our face. To answer No I don’t play Dusknoir, when you do, would be a bold face lie.

So if I start a match and my opponent says, Unsolicited, that he is playing this deck and he doesn't play Dusknoir or took it out for this event. And he does, yes I think that player isn't with the SOTG, CHEAP, and I don't respect him. If a Judge Game Loss him for this sort of unsolicited lie. I wouldn't cry a tear for him. (I wouldn't push the judge though.)

If I asked my opponent if he has still had a Dusknoir in his deck, and he replied No. And he did. Shame on me for Asking a question like this, means I was asking for deception.

We get into fuzziness and players unwritten code of conduct here. Maybe we need to codify the unwritten rules of player conduct.

 

[AzNightmare]

My point exactly. If I say to a player I am familiar with during the game -"You're playing dialga huh? I'm glad I teched in that Blaze"(I, of course am lying). This is done both in good fun and in an attempt to create a little doubt. This goes on all the time.... I'm sooooo guilty for make these kind of smart alek comments with players in our cirlce and they of course return the favor. I still refuse to see the harm in this kind of lie.....This is in no way shape or form equal to lying about the number of cards in your hand etc.... Everyone knows I play atypical lists and it is just plain fun to keep them guessing as to what kind of craziness I might be playing.. so a subtle comment like"I haven't seen a plus power all game", when I don't play them in this deck, is fun..... This kind of banter is sometimes the best part of the day... I think everyone knows that anything anyone says about their deck is supect at best. I hope to god that if you and I are playing a game and I ask you if you are playing that stupid Dusknoir and you lie to me by saying of course why wouldn't I?, that you aren't penalized..... Please......that might be the last time I play this game.

In Box of Fail's situation, what a player says about his deck outside of the game's paramaters should be disregarded - it is not a required by the game to be true or false. I agree it's a cheap manuver and should be discouraged, but common sense should tell you not to believe things you are unable to prove, especially during a competative tourney against people you've never met.....

:thumb: Agreed.

...........................

 

[Lawman]

Thanks Keith. I do see your point. Big Difference on this. I am a lazy reader on some days, so I will take a hit on this.

We are dancing around an Unwritten Code of Player's conduct. Since all of this stuff is unwritten, (all the stuff that is missing from the tournament rules and penalty guidelines that majority of players abide to), it is hard for us to agree upon or have judges rule upon it. I think about the movie Hook, where Dustin Hoffman (HOOK), talks about "Good Form" in his battle with Peter Pan (Robin Williams). "Good Form Peter", when Hook drops his sword and Peter Pan returns it to him so that they could continue there sword fight.

On your specific case that I missed. There are three distinctions that a Bluff may have, but when you hit all three hard, it stinks of poor form.
1. Unsolicited.
2. Specific.
3. 100% Lie.

To sit down at a match and unsolicitedly blurt out that I am playing Speedril today, and you are not. That hit all three.

Three strikes you are out maybe. This Bluffing issue has raised three areas about the bluff being legit or not.
1. Unsolicited versus solicited. If someone is bold enough to ask a specific question, most of us think that a coy answer could be an appropriate response. To provide an unsolicited misleading information about a deck, to most isn’t good form.
2. Specific versus Unspecific Information – To mislead someone by giving specific misinformation seems to be worst than giving a coy answer that a player can interpret themselves. Vague and unspecific information that requires others to interpret is usually how we play this game. To “say” both of my Claydols is prize versus implying your prizes are bad, by frowns, grunts, and ah shawks.
3. Truth, Half-Truth, Bold Face Lie. We play these games by giving half truth, or say "maybe" to that dusknoir question... with a coy smile on our face. To answer No I don’t play Dusknoir, when you do, would be a bold face lie.

So if I start a match and my opponent says, Unsolicited, that he is playing this deck and he doesn't play Dusknoir or took it out for this event. And he does, yes I think that player isn't with the SOTG, CHEAP, and I don't respect him. If a Judge Game Loss him for this sort of unsolicited lie. I wouldn't cry a tear for him. (I wouldn't push the judge though.)

If I asked my opponent if he has still had a Dusknoir in his deck, and he replied No. And he did. Shame on me for Asking a question like this, means I was asking for deception.

We get into fuzziness and players unwritten code of conduct here. Maybe we need to codify the unwritten rules of player conduct.

Well said Rob :thumb: Good form and bad form are good terms of art here. I know we all have played agst a friend in a BR or CC and joked around talking about decks, prized cards, techs for a deck etc. We arent trying to decieve, we are having fun, which is what this game is about. The "grey" area hits when you get to events and there are people that dont know you and vice versa. We may not be able to "joke" with a player that we dont know. Context may be taken the wrong way. The golden rule is appropriate here too, except some players (and you know who you are!) dont have much of a conscience and would say, do and play anyway they could to win. But, for the high majority of players, they wouldnt want the same junk pulled on them, so they dont do it either.

Keith