gutsygligar
New Member
Or if Umbreon is that much of a problem for your Charizard deck, just swap out Typhlosion for Emboar. "Oh sorry, I don't have a Power or Body, I have an Ability...and an Expert Belt. Bye."
Charizard After Rotation
- Thread starter eriknance
- Start date
Hmm...let me see...
Erik Nance:
Top Cut Worlds last year after going X-1 during Swiss
2nd at Nationals last year
2nd at NC States last year (With Charizard)
Porii:
Donked his way to one Cities win in Seniors
...yeah...nothing personal, but I'm going with Erik on this one, not just because he has more credibility but because I've thought that since about May of last year before I had a clue what was going to happen with B/W or what most of the cards in UD or TM were. Its not rocket science. It has the second (arguably) best engine in the game right now, it just happens to be slower than the one that is better...and it has bad type in the current format. Next format, we lose BOTH disadvantages. Ninetales is, IMO, by far the best draw Pokemon in the game right now, to inlcude Uxie. But, Uxie is more versatile since it works in most decks and Ninetales only works in fire. To sit there and say that a card that has had a reasonable amount of success in the last 2 formats won't be very good next format despite the fact that everything that makes it bad in this format is gone, just shows ignorance...and, of course, your overwhelming need just to disagree with EVERYTHING that EVERYONE says.
Porii Sames
Active Member
No ,it's just I've read a lot of posts seeing that Zard will be a top deck, and frankly, I'm getting slightly annoyed now. I mean, Erik knows his stuff, I'm not denying that. Zard has just not really lived up to its expectations much (again, no offense Erik, I know you got 2nd at States with it).
Roarkiller
Member
*cough*floatoise*cough*
There goes your big lizard, sniped to oblivion. And floatzel's power can be used every turn, too. And magnezone says hi.
That said, I don't disagree that charizard will be huge next format. it can withstand cinccino and heal next turn, KO zekrom after self-damage, one-shot both donphan and magnezone, the big tanks so far.
On a side note, being a big jumpluff player, I'm sorry to say this but the poor weed is gonna be dead post rotation. Jumpluff NEEDS the damn BTS to work, you just can't recycle pluffs without it, not with the new candy ruling.
There goes your big lizard, sniped to oblivion. And floatzel's power can be used every turn, too. And magnezone says hi.
That said, I don't disagree that charizard will be huge next format. it can withstand cinccino and heal next turn, KO zekrom after self-damage, one-shot both donphan and magnezone, the big tanks so far.
On a side note, being a big jumpluff player, I'm sorry to say this but the poor weed is gonna be dead post rotation. Jumpluff NEEDS the damn BTS to work, you just can't recycle pluffs without it, not with the new candy ruling.
I'm sorry, how is this a "good argument" for an HGSS-On rotation?
Charizard is strong, no doubt, but hardly unstoppable. He's just a big scary stage 2, which is honestly how stage 2 pokemon SHOULD be.
If the rotation is RR-On, which is the most sensible option, Lucario GL will also remain in the format which will help decks stay capable of using weakness against DP-era cards.
You also complain that Samurott won't have a setup card. Um, hello? How about the same setup card you're using with Charizard? Herp derp spiritomb. also can't be Gusted out to disrupt setup. What's the problem here?
Charizard is strong, no doubt, but hardly unstoppable. He's just a big scary stage 2, which is honestly how stage 2 pokemon SHOULD be.
If the rotation is RR-On, which is the most sensible option, Lucario GL will also remain in the format which will help decks stay capable of using weakness against DP-era cards.
You also complain that Samurott won't have a setup card. Um, hello? How about the same setup card you're using with Charizard? Herp derp spiritomb. also can't be Gusted out to disrupt setup. What's the problem here?
Hes talking about ninetales in case you didnt catch this ....
Gosh I wish people would stop tlaking if they ovbviously have no idea what they talk about. (not directed @above me)
Charizard isnt a failed hype, CHarizard is scary good but was born into the only metagame it cant do anything against. Gyarados is just ... and Ninetales makes for big hands and zard cant dotch FS. Ninetales is better then Claydol but less stable so that sucks against sp. In AR-On it would be hard to counter since it has a +30 weakness, fire has a ton of suport, he has a damage output like kingdra with more hp and a "kill everything" second attack, it has the best draw in the format etc.
I love some cards from RR-AR and wish theyd finally get some time in the spotlight but after the disaster that was this season I doubt we should risk it. Charizard is crazy good, too good? Idk but its definitly a candidate to becoming to good, just like arceus. THe problem is that IF it turns out to be to good japan will not do anything about it and were stuck with this. This is why, although Id love to keep some cards for a bit longer, we should play it save with hgss-on.
I also feel that expert belt needs to go, period. Stupid card is stupid and its one that can destroy a stable metagame quickly in case we get something that can really abuse it.
Gosh I wish people would stop tlaking if they ovbviously have no idea what they talk about. (not directed @above me)
Charizard isnt a failed hype, CHarizard is scary good but was born into the only metagame it cant do anything against. Gyarados is just ... and Ninetales makes for big hands and zard cant dotch FS. Ninetales is better then Claydol but less stable so that sucks against sp. In AR-On it would be hard to counter since it has a +30 weakness, fire has a ton of suport, he has a damage output like kingdra with more hp and a "kill everything" second attack, it has the best draw in the format etc.
I love some cards from RR-AR and wish theyd finally get some time in the spotlight but after the disaster that was this season I doubt we should risk it. Charizard is crazy good, too good? Idk but its definitly a candidate to becoming to good, just like arceus. THe problem is that IF it turns out to be to good japan will not do anything about it and were stuck with this. This is why, although Id love to keep some cards for a bit longer, we should play it save with hgss-on.
I also feel that expert belt needs to go, period. Stupid card is stupid and its one that can destroy a stable metagame quickly in case we get something that can really abuse it.
Politoed666
New Member
Guys, it's not going to be HGSS-on. They're not going to rotate seven sets. I think even AR-on is a huge stretch. In any case, what is Charizard's answer to Umbreon UD? No, seriously. Doesn't it, like, lose? Or start attacking with Charmeleon? I also except Cincinno to see considerable play, as it is an easily recyclable Stage 1 that hits 100 for one DCE. You can't cycle through Charizards when one gets knocked out, especially with Uxie, Cynthia's, and various other support cards gone
I think Charizard will be much better than it is now, but I don't think it will prove to be as dominant as SP decks have been the last few years.
I think Charizard will be much better than it is now, but I don't think it will prove to be as dominant as SP decks have been the last few years.
TheFreshness
New Member
I used to believe this but now with this rule change coming up I have to disagree with this. They will have us match Japan's current format and with the T/S/S on first turn its for the better. However is zard manages to squeak in yes it will be very good and really doesnt loose anything aside from BTS and the nerf on rare candy. Uxie is nice but not really needed in zard because of ninetails...shiny vulpix is also a kinda nice set up I guess but again not a huge deal by any means.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Chillarmy can use Ninetales engine too...
Just saying. It IS Colorless.
Just saying. It IS Colorless.
They never make us match Japan's format. Even if they rotate up to HGSS, they'll still at a bare minimum be one set ahead of us permanently.
Such a horrid reasoning for why they would rotate up to HGSS.
Even the CoL reprints point to the greater likelihood of staying the course - 4 sets a year, which would cause HGSS1 to be rotated out next year.
Regardless, unless we start seeing weird, arbitrary amounts of sets rotating every year, we won't ever match Japan's format considering even the most basic aspect - the set lists themselves - aren't the same! Our sets don't even match theirs!
Porii, you're right, a lot of people have talked about Charizard, but I'm considering the deck in a different light than our current format. When Steelix ex originally came out people talked about it a lot, but it never saw any use until Delta Species came out. Then, when the "cards aligned," LBS quickly gained "BDIF" status. Steelix ex, a Pokemon with two weaknesses that offered two prizes when KO'd... compared to Charizard, which has modified weakness, setup potential, and the ability to OHKO nearly every card in the format for 3 energy.
Again, setting up decks without Uxie/Claydol/Ninetails will be really difficult. I know that Spiritomb's around, but by the time you can snipe something on the bench I'll have a OHKO coming your way. "Floatoise" will suffer greatly mid to late-game.
Lucario GL does have the potential to hurt Charizard, but only if you can setuo the water threat. See above concerning Spiritomb (though I will concede that Samurott can actually survive a hit from Charizard and can OHKO it back if you manage to get it all in play).
Agreed. The moment some Basic Pokemon can do substantial damage with little drawback, Expert Belt will show up and contribute to donks yet again. I don't think it will be as bad as now, but it would probably find its way into an archetype as just an alternate way to nab a win (kind of like how Sablelock can play past turn 1, but definitely has the donk potential).
Cinccino feels a lot like yesterday's Kricketune to me. Just me?
...and Steelix was only half the picture. Notably though it was a stage 1 not a stage 2, thus easier to get out, and had more HP than Charizard (slightly). It also sniped anything on the board for a probable KO unlike Charizard.
Lugia was what made the deck broken, because even if you DID set something up, it was dead. Same problem with Rayquaza ex back in the Blaziken days. Nothing was safe.
You're acting like Charizard is always going to have a full bench of juggernaut doom before any deck can set up any kind of strategy.
Kabutops can beat VileGar too if they hit a first turn fossil and rare candy! /logic
Samurott doesn't have any more difficulty setting up than Charizard - if anything, it's less, since Samurott can take advantage of setup tech basics which Charizard is forced to avoid - and can KO two Charizards with ease before going down. I don't see a problem here... and Charizard has to run through the Spiritomb to start winning the game, so the Water deck gets the advantage here.
Tell you what Tagrineth, you give me an AR-on Samurott list and I'll put it to the test and post results here. I'll even record the matchups if I get a chance. By the way, this isn't an "I told you so" thing, as I'm genuinely interested in how decks not using Ninetails will set up sufficiently in the AR-on format. Also, consider the lack of Lucario GL a tradeoff for the fact that Samurott will have a ton of difficulty against Zekrom speed decks.
Politoed666
New Member
I know what you're saying... they are very similar. There are a few key differences, though:
• Kricketune was two attachments. Cinccino is one, if you use DCE.
• Cincinno takes Colorless, which means it can abuse not only DCE, but Warp, Rescue, Upper, etc. as well.
• Cincinno can hit for 100... IIRC Kricketune maxed at 80.
• Expert Belt/Warp Energy/Seeker makes for 120 a turn with healing.
• Cinccino is in a friendly meta: Rare Candy is crippled by the new rules, meaning Stage 2 decks will see less play and be weaker.
Not to derail the thread or anything. xD
Also Krickitune only counted the # of Krickitune and Krickitot on your side of the field, but Cincinno counts all of your pokemon, so you can setup other pokemon with it and the whole deck doesn't have to be around Cincinno. I wouldn't be surprised to see SP decks tech in Cincinno, especially the Garchomp ones. No deck could tech in Krickitune, it was it's own deck and required an entire deck of resources to work.
Gyarados is a lot like a bizarro-world Krickitune, instead of having them in play, you have the magikarps in the discard pile. And yet Gyarados is within the top 5 decks right now (of course it can attack for no energy, but still).
Expert belt is a great call, too. of course, if we got HGSS-on, we won't have expert belt.
I built a Tyranitar Prime deck today at league that had cards from RR-on, and included spiritomb, and I felt it did alright. Erik is right that without uxie, decks take a hit in setup. I hope The Pokemon Company Japan decides to print more support for other types.
lucario aura wielder
New Member
make one use samurott feraligator prime hgss and spiritomb with dces and a tech cillicanio line