Consistency over Creativity

[MrMeches]

Prime,

After reading your synopsis on the current Meta Game and the Point System, there are a few things that caught my attention and begin my thought process of the current Tournament Season. Here are some things that I would like to share that I have observed and after discussing with some others, have found to be true.

Creativity is in the eye of the beholder. I do concede that few decks are consistently winning tournaments and however you handle it, variants of them are everywhere which has created the “Can’t Beat ‘Em, Join ‘Em” mentality for players. My concern is not so much that the Big Deck In Format (BDIF) are getting a lot of play time, but that the vision of newer players (n00bs; no disrespect to those of you that are, we all earn our stripes) coming in are getting tunnel vision to a greater card pool. This is why at times it is nice to see pick up games at tournaments not using the standard variants of Blissey, Gardevoir and Magmortar and introducing a greater range of cards to n00bs. In the Pokemon Community, people grasp that winning a tournament creates bragging rights for a year and this confidence builder has been around for a long time. The lack of creativity in the Top Cut is prevalent, but not in SWISS rounds. The creativity is there and people are playing ROGUE style decks, they just aren’t making the cut as often. In every tournament I have attended (BR and CC), I have witnessed around 25-30% rogue deck play. It is low, but they are there. I personally like that many Deck Builders are trying to come with new Trainer Engines. So if the same Pokemon are being used, but a new style Trainer Engine is developed, is this Rogue or is it still BDIF? The Creativity is there with something that has not been mainstreamed yet, so this becomes a gray area. Nonetheless, I feel Rogue is still there, they are just more sparse do to n00bs coming into the game and seeing that specific decks are continually winning and therefore playing those decks. I would like to get a count of how many NEW PLAYERS have started this season as opposed to last.

The Points system is flawed perfection. It rewards those players that travel to more tournaments which help promote the game and keep, now this is the important thing, SALES up. Now I do wish they would consider something to the situation where the later you enter the season, the lower the base number is. We start at 1600 for BR, so why not go to 1500 for CC, 1400 for States and so on. I can see where some would say this punishes a new player, but there could be checks and balances for that. If OP can identify Brand New Players, then they always start at 1600 regardless of the time the enter the season. If a player is a registered player for more than 1 year, they go to the declining points ranking for when they entered the season. This can help eliminate those players that sit out of events early on just to come in and start cleaning up points to get that 1800+ for Nationals. Some players still skip BR and let people build a point base just so when they come in, they can grab more at the onset of CC.

So until the system can find a balance, the same BDIF will be consistently in the top cuts, it is a fact of the game unfortunately, but it shouldn’t discourage those ROGUE PLAYERS to keep trying and see what happens!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[TheDarkTwins]

Agrees with original post. Well thought out and very much a non sour grapes view.

The evolution of the decks during cities has been very interesting. At the first few cities, there were a great variety of decks being played. As we hit the mid point, the local NE metagame evolved into 4 deck types with either Gardy/Gallade, Magmortar, Honchkrow, or Blissey. All with Absol or Furrett...

It has come down to a lot of meta gaming. How is this person's build? What tech did they have? All that stuff. Is it due to points, lack of card pool, or something else?

My thoughts are that the folks that want to win and get points gravitate to the top tier decks. Those who don't have a shot go rogue and have fun. The card pool is tragedy. Very, very few POKÉMON in HP to DF can be used. Here is a few that I can think of (don't go crazy on judging my choices, they are just examples).

HP: Latias (11), Latios (12) for Lati-lock
CG: Delcatty ex, Skitty (by default), Mawile (maybe), Sableye (for sure), Ascension Shuppet, Tauros (maybe).
DF: Feraligator d, Flygon ex d, Kingdra ex d, Meganium d, Mew * d, Nidoqueen d, Ray ex d
PK: Claydol ex (just kidding), Delcatty, Machamp (maybe)

Compared to ALL the cards that DP-on has to offer, there is a serious imbalance in card pool. In rough numbers:

HP to DF: 20 "Playable" to 400 in pool. 5%
DP to SW: 45 "Playable" (~ 45 per set) to 300 in pool. 15%

Just my thoughts.

I think your forgetting some pokemon in there.

But the imbalance is the problem. The fact that they made SW the worst set ever by making a total of 8-10 cards that pretty much destroy the rest of the format/card pool. You can do that. If your gonna do that your gonna upset players who want to not play the tier 1 decks. I mean 64% of cities were won by Blissey or G&G, that is insane. I can promise 40% is by G&G, maybe more. You can have a 1 deck to rule them all. It just doesnt make the game fun anymore. If I go to a tourney and play 6 of the same deck that isnt fun. It is ridiculous.

JMO,
Drew

Edit -

The true problem here is that there are 3 main types of decks that are causing havoc at this time, and everyone communicates well enough to realize that. Magmortar, Blissey and Gardelade. Just so happens Absol is as prevelent in these decks as Cleffa was during the neo block!

To stop any real ghost counter to Garde/lade, there are just enough Honchkrow decks to make you go oof.


Vince

First off, Honchkrow doesnt beat G&G from what I have seen. In our area I think the G&G decks are about 15-1 against it most likely more. Second, your right you have 3 decks that are really really good and better most likely than everything else. Problem is G&G beats the other 2 making it IMO the only true Tier 1 deck right now. Everything else is just a few steps behind it atleast maybe more.

JMO,
Drew

 

[dogma]

Even if 10 decks have been pointed out, look at the "What Won Cities" Thread. Seventy-Six Gardy/Gallade have won all over, with Blissy/Magmortar variants following behind it. Not exactly varied.

Honestly, I believe that the only reason that there's been little creativity at the moment is from the fact that there is very little time to prepare, and the card pool is limited. It gets hard to try and find counters to the big things when there's a limited amount of cards to choose from (considering that the sets before DP offer very little to the format nowadays.)

Thanks, that has helped me understand why my original point was flawed. But isn't this a fairly obvious thing? We have only 3 sets of viable cards because they are more powerful than older cards. It's too early to tell if it is the tournament structure that's doing this: we need more cards.

One thing to note: PCL deliberately upped the power level of the DP sets. The EX sets were a power level above the 'e-' sets (Expedition-Skyridge). There is a general power creep issue in Pokémon. But it is done well. Cards have never been banned (don't count the stupid Neo debacle, they could've errated), and it doesn't seem to be a serious thing to do here. It's about all you can ask for in 3 sets of powerful cards that they play nice and one card isn't too broken.

 

[KingOfKings715]

I think your forgetting some pokemon in there.

But the imbalance is the problem. The fact that they made SW the worst set ever by making a total of 8-10 cards that pretty much destroy the rest of the format/card pool. You can do that. If your gonna do that your gonna upset players who want to not play the tier 1 decks. I mean 64% of cities were won by Blissey or G&G, that is insane. I can promise 40% is by G&G, maybe more. You can have a 1 deck to rule them all. It just doesnt make the game fun anymore. If I go to a tourney and play 6 of the same deck that isnt fun. It is ridiculous.

JMO,
Drew

Edit -

First off, Honchkrow doesnt beat G&G from what I have seen. In our area I think the G&G decks are about 15-1 against it most likely more. Second, your right you have 3 decks that are really really good and better most likely than everything else. Problem is G&G beats the other 2 making it IMO the only true Tier 1 deck right now. Everything else is just a few steps behind it atleast maybe more.

JMO,
Drew

Our area stinks lolz Everyone here is playing g and g so you shouldnt use our area as an example. G&G is the best deck but not by much right now

As for the format being the way it is, the limited card pool is the reason. But i think i kno what prime is saying with no more rogue decks can really be made, with the high hp and weakness being modifed its difficult to counter many of these decks. Look at Banette vs Gallade, even with 80 dmg for 2 nrg it still doesnt ohko gallade. Weakness is no longer much of a factor making it much harder to counter big decks. There is still other ways to do so though

 

[PokeDaddy]

I think your forgetting some pokemon in there.

As I said, it is not all of them. Bear in mind I said Pokemon, not trainers, supporters, or stadiums. I am curious to know what you think is actually playable right now in HP-PK.

I am thinking about making this a thread anyways.....

Steve

 

[MrMeches]

Delcatty PK, Flygon d, Meganium d, NIdoqueen d, Kingdra Ex d, Sableye CG, Shiftry EX (where did this go?? It would just stack on Gardevoir which would slow down setup!), Feraligatr d, Typhlosion d (In the right hands with Lake Boundary), Kabutops PK (could really disrupt Blissey decks by pulling up Chansey and hitting it and then they can't evo to Blissey), Slaking (with Holon FF would just slaughter most decks right now do to Powers)

There are a lot of cards out there, it is just finding the time to make the right combos to make them work!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[Pidgeot5]

FriedBlaze, thought of Weavile even before coming here, still loses badly to the main decks cus it simply takes too long to set it up and can lack consistancy. Its probably the best way to use Pidgeot SW atm.

I am frankly surprised at Jimmy Ballard's comments in this thread.

Jimmy has always tried to surf at the front of the creative playing edge, and now seems to be abandoning that post.

There are certainly enough good decks out there to keep the envio from being a "Gatr or else" envio (neo block reference).

We had a cities won this weekend in a ROUGH Seniors envio with a ... Machamp Deck. Too much Blissey, and she just SLAMMED through the competition.

There are some other nasty psychic decks if your envio is too heavy in Garde/lade, that are stage 1s, hit hard, and are NOT weak to psychic themselves...

It all comes down to metagaming.

The true problem here is that there are 3 main types of decks that are causing havoc at this time, and everyone communicates well enough to realize that. Magmortar, Blissey and Gardelade. Just so happens Absol is as prevelent in these decks as Cleffa was during the neo block!

To stop any real ghost counter to Garde/lade, there are just enough Honchkrow decks to make you go oof.

The envio is strong right now.

Vince

I play stage 1 psychics for fun. I can tell you, that I lose to Gallade more often than I win simply because I am unable simply to match Gallade in terms of the number of knockouts.

The only two legal psychic stage 1 pokemon that come close to being able to OHKO Gallade are Banette and Mismagius. The weakness to psychic is by and large irrelevant anyway, but nothing comes close to these two cards anyway.

Both of these options can only OHKO if Lake boundary is in play, otherwise Banette deals 110 for PP (assuming there is a Banette discarded as well), and Mismagius will do 120 assuming Mismagius doesn't have a double rainbow attached otherwise its 110, a pluspower might KO, but this situation is a three turn charge up not really appealing, especially considering all the extra help Gallade is getting from Gardevoir. However most of the time Gallade can take a hit, grin, and knock you, and your energy cards out, leaving you playing catch up.

Lake boundary is a rather risky card to have in your deck because it can be harmful to you, and if your opponent plays a stadium that you need to get rid of (this is definately going to apply in later sets) your choice of playing Lake isn't going to be so cool.

Also there are other decks out there beside Gallade, and either card doesn't look good against the rest of the game. As you said, Honchkrow makes a meal out of these. However that's not the point overall, I think even a psychic rogue (and I don't think Banette even classes as rogue) can even be at 50% win vs Gallade.

Edit: Most of the prior to DP cards are simply not going to work. Some of them require way too many energy to do anything constructive and take too much time to get going, and are often plagued with the other guy getting two prizes for a KO and/or have that 2x weakness to deal with. When there are cards around now, that do what exs used to do (if not be better) and aren't tagged with 2 prizes or multiple 2x weakness, and double rainbow cannot be attached to pokemon ex, its hardly a wonder when some of the older cards appear useless in comparison. Sure some are still useful, but rarely in a battling position. I think it's just going to be a waiting game until more material is released, with any luck it'll get better by 5 sets. Dp4 isn't going to be enough but it's a start at least.

 

[Prof Clay]

Patience everyone. We go thru this every year with the rotation, except this year with the new weakness rules, 2 of our old sets power cards are not viable anymore.

Creativity is still out there, it just takes guts or crazines to go out and run something that you know on paper seems like its great but in reality...

Last weekend oour Bartlett City was won by Muk Man's Delcatty/Ninetails... it was crazy enough to work and perfectly metagamed against gardy/gallade. The trick that made it work though was the skill of the player. One of my seniors ran it and he couldn't get out of his own way due to inexperience with the deck

My daughter won back to back cities with Blissey- Crobat...She was perfectly metagamed for a Mario environment. You want creative...find out what the local metagame is and take advantage of it. If there is no consistent metagame like Memphis, Play what you know and play i t well, but be ready for the power decks or just be lucky :thumb:

yes there are power cards that demand to be played....there always will be/always have been.

I expect regionals and Nats to have some great new decks...each new DP set has brought great new ideas to the tables and added with the power of our older energies and trainers (lord won't we miss Celio when he is gone) we will look back and realize everything is ok

 

[TheDarkTwins]

As I said, it is not all of them. Bear in mind I said Pokemon, not trainers, supporters, or stadiums. I am curious to know what you think is actually playable right now in HP-PK.

I am thinking about making this a thread anyways.....

Steve

I didnt see you said current format. But you would have to agree that some cards are good til after a set is released with a certian card and visa versa. Absol Ex should be on that list. It is still good for it's power.

However think about Blastoise Ex, Lugia Ex, Steelix Ex, Manectric Ex, Rayquaza*, Latias*, Latios*, Sudowoodo. How many of these cards which helped a few decks dominate the format a few years wouldnt of been as good without the Holon Pokemon which counted as more than 1 Pokemon. I am betting almost all of them (which I listed them). I think the bigger problem is if your gonna make cards that make the good cards from older set useless almost, you have to make a few that make a few of the ones that havent been good but have potential a partner so the set can still have some influence. If you dont you might as well rotate the cards from that set since no one is gonna use the cards from those sets.

JMO,
Drew

 

[Prime]

I really appreciate the good discussion we are having everyone!

There are plenty of decent cards in the DP sets, a lot of cards I'd love to use. But I can't use those cards because they fail in comparison to cards like Blissey, Magmortar, and G&G. Decks that did well at tournaments in the past (Infernape, Flygon, Empoleon, Electivire) aren't even touched now because of how insanely good these newer cards are.

I feel it is important to reward players for doing well consistently, but not at a loss of rewarding the players that might not do well as consistently. Some of the best players in the game have won a huge tournaments and not won another tournament the entire season. How is it right for someone that can beat his local area and win a thousand battle roads and cities to get to Worlds and not someone who defeats all the best in his region not get invited to Worlds?

The power curve has to stop somewhere. Pokemon can't just keep getting stronger and with more HP. When we see pokemon like Wailord (GE) that has 200HP and isn't a stage 2 or an ex or a lv.X, there is something messed up. Especially when some pokemon end up with no HP gain (Ludicolo) and others just gain it for no reason (Ampharos).

I am looking forward to seeing what people come up with for GE and seeing what next big deck becomes the fourth musketeer of dominating decks.

 

[BANGINBOX]

The Points system is flawed perfection. It rewards those players that travel to more tournaments which help promote the game and keep, now this is the important thing, SALES up.
~Prof. Fish~

I am not a business major, but I play one in real life! Wouldnt it be more benefitial for sales if pokemon held states on many different days? I think it would allow the SAME players MANY opprotunities to purchase product. NOT just one.

I personally dont see what all the stink is about anymore. Big whip, we are playing for an INVITE? I play to have fun. Long weekends with my friends, meeting new players from different areas, etc... That seems to have been taken away. I think PUI needs to look at attendance accross the board and re-evaluate these recent changes.

I am sure that they are doing their best to please everyone. Sometimes you just cant. But I also believe that after the season is over, they will realize the changes were not widely accepted by their LOYAL player base. Sales and attendance will surely be the indicators.

BTW... Vince.... I NEVER stop coming up with new ideas. You will not see me winning with the, but you will see some up and coming names from my shop sporting some wins with them!

Surfs up!,
Jimmy

 

[ryanvergel]

I think it's kind of stupid for people to be making so many assumptions about this format so early into the season.

Like Chad said, you guys will see PLENTY of ideas come states and regionals.

Heck, I've only played in two events this year. You guys have not seen the big guns players are packing.

States/Regionals: the big guns are coming out.

 

[SLOW DECK]

red face paint Runner here, Agree with most of the above. DP-On is fundamentally better by a wide margin. Thus even normal "meta-game" plays are too fragile to do any good. HP's and Damage per Energy is just too good overcome. More set's will return the game to a better state for "red face paint runners".

Again, I will vote to end Rankings!!! If that means our family can TRAVEL to other Places to see friends and play in more tournaments.

 

[Pidgeot5]

I am not a business major, but I play one in real life! Wouldnt it be more benefitial for sales if pokemon held states on many different days? I think it would allow the SAME players MANY opprotunities to purchase product. NOT just one.

I personally dont see what all the stink is about anymore. Big whip, we are playing for an INVITE? I play to have fun. Long weekends with my friends, meeting new players from different areas, etc... That seems to have been taken away. I think PUI needs to look at attendance accross the board and re-evaluate these recent changes.

I am sure that they are doing their best to please everyone. Sometimes you just cant. But I also believe that after the season is over, they will realize the changes were not widely accepted by their LOYAL player base. Sales and attendance will surely be the indicators.

BTW... Vince.... I NEVER stop coming up with new ideas. You will not see me winning with the, but you will see some up and coming names from my shop sporting some wins with them!

Surfs up!,
Jimmy

Yeah I don't even play in tournaments cus I don't really care about the invite. It'd be nice sure, but I rate having fun above that... and to be very honest, I find the strength of some cards that can completely negate ability are simply unfun to face. I just play at league with fun/random stuff and I have a good group of friends who support this style of play where we try to come up with new ideas, some of them are rather interesting.

SLOW Deck, I'm not too sure the situation is going to improve for Rogues. Because of the changes to weakness and resistance it means that the 'good damage per energy cards' are harder to take down by something that isn't as good.

Rogues are formed by two things, either an overlooked combination which then becomes archtype if its good enough (raieggs) or a good typing against the current played cards, or both. Typing matters far less now... which will therefore lower the chance a rogue has of winning. Not to say its impossible of course... and from here, the number of playable cards can only go up.

 

[PokeDaddy]

I think it's kind of stupid for people to be making so many assumptions about this format so early into the season.

Like Chad said, you guys will see PLENTY of ideas come states and regionals.

Heck, I've only played in two events this year. You guys have not seen the big guns players are packing.

States/Regionals: the big guns are coming out.

ryan vergel -

I think a very good discussion is ongoing. As a moderator, leading statements like "I think it's kind of stupid...." is not in good form or role model for the rest of the gym.

I have noticed this in some of your other posts.

On topic, yes, GE should help. PK-HP is so under powered.....

 

[Prime]

This is what I estimate will happen with the release of GE.

1 or 2 decks will come out of GE that become a large part of the metagame for states. People try out other ideas and there are a few that do decently, but end up being overlooked for the best decks from the set. The decks that have been doing well, that can survive a new playing field move up into the metagame for states. This includes decks like Blissey, which can adapt to any new set, Magmortar, and G&G. We end up with a format for States just like Cities but with 1 or 2 new decks added in.

The same idea presents itself about rogue decks not being able to keep up with the big decks, and people dropping creative counters in order to play the decks that will do well more consistently. We end up with tournament reports that are still 50%-75% one deck in the top cut. People remark that we will see the truly creative decks for Regionals.

I guess we can wait and see.

 

[Scizor]

I think you're underestimating how good of a set Great Encounters is, Prime. There are way more than enough good cards to make over 1-2 GOOD decks. It's just like the previous sets: many cards will become nearly unviable due to even MORE powerful cards.

 

[dogma]

I agree with Scizor; PCL have tried a risky move with overpowering the DP cards, but it looks like we've not seen the bigger picture yet. GE will be a move towards more than 1-2 good decks.

We can't base too much this early on...

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

Could someone define what is meant by "creative"?

Does creative mean your whole deck has to be made of seldom used cards or does a combination of popular cards suffice? E.g. Magmortar and Empoleon. Is that creative?

 

[ShadowGuard]

Really good thread.

As I saw at the last City Championship, you really see just the same decks everywhere. At some tournaments I play Gardy by myself, because I built a good decklist long time before Secret Wonders actually released, and I don't want to stop playing a deck just because everyone plays it. But I don't like it that so many people just use the strongest meta decks in each tourmanent.

But it IS possible to counter these decks and win without Blissey oder Gardy - most people just don't even try it because they fear to much rating loss. I ran a Garchomp/Delcatty/Smeargle deck at a CC (the largest in our country yet), and I won 7-0. There were more than enough Blisseys and Gardys at the tournament, but even the second place used Garchomp (with Weavile).

To mention another thing that counters Gardy - Flygon ex d is really great. Yesterday at a small CC I played Gardy /Gallade/Meganium and went 2-2 because I lost two times to Flygon ex d. Gallade may knock out one of them, but then it's over. Flygon/Meganium & R-Gon are still underrated, with good decklists and techs they have greats matchups vs Gardy, Blissey, Magmortar und lots of other metagame decks. I don't play these by myself, but I often watched them to defeat the meta decks because a friend likes to play Flygon.