Consistency over Creativity

[bullados]

I built Gardy. Not because the deck is good. But because I will do pretty much anything to build a Gardy deck. Even if Gardy isn't good, I'll still want to try and find a way to run it effectively. Actually, that's not entirely accurate. I want to find a way to use Psy Shadow to some extent, which is why I built Delusions of Gallantry in the first place.

Never, EVER, accuse me of netdecking a Gardy/Gallade list. For about 90% of the people playing the deck, you can't possibly accuse them of netdecking a Gardy/Gallade deck. They all realized the potential of the two cards together, and they each built their own lists using their own playing styles and with their own degrees of success. My build is not going to win anything. But it's the build that I'm most comfortable with, and it's the build that I'm going to keep using until I feel that I can make it better.

 

[SLOW DECK]

The winner of our State Championship on Saturday played a 1-0-1 Salamence ex into his Magmortar list to resist Magmortar and Gallade, and his strategy must have worked, because he took the tournament, even with 3 GGs and 2 other Mortars in the top cut.

HA, HA. The 1-0-1 was in my Typhlo/Magmotar deck already too. Late game, you just close the door on the game. 150 150 150. It is a great tech, nice to know it worked for someone.

 

[Prime]

90% is a bit high. I would say 90% of the players playing the deck realized the combo, but I'd say 70% of the players playing the deck didn't actually build it until they saw it won multiple city championships. There might not be that many good netdeckers out there, but there are MANY good players that will jump on an idea the second they see it doing well.

 

[Skull Bash]

90% is a bit high. I would say 90% of the players playing the deck realized the combo, but I'd say 70% of the players playing the deck didn't actually build it until they saw it won multiple city championships. There might not be that many good netdeckers out there, but there are MANY good players that will jump on an idea the second they see it doing well.

Exactly. First cities I went to I played GG with stantler, and I was almost the only one there with the deck. There were a couple more. I went 4-0 and got dq'ed for marked sleeves, but regardless most people didnt play the deck at first. You could tell even on the gym most people were saying Gallade was not gonna win much. I knew it would be beastly from the beginning.

 

[samurai_soldier]

I have to disagree with some of your statements Prime, while on the whole you are correct, you seem to believe that the format is full of netdeckers. Not true at all, most people who you think are netdecking (I would be included in the analysis), are actually people who found decks, tested them, found them to be good, and adapted them to their meta games and personal play style.

I built a T2 Banette deck, before that I ran T2 Magmortar, both of which are both very publicly known. I would never go as far as to say that I invented either deck (I know I didn't), I will say that either list I've played (or am playing) is far from what is considered a Netdeck. Both decks are built to work with my playstyle, and as such you could go as far as to say that I discovered the techs I play myself.

To go as far as to say 90% of the metagame is Netdecks is far from accurate, I'd say the number is closer to 40%. I think your a little confused as to what a Netdeck really is, and who run them and who don't, the GG decklists I see are all different from one another. Netdeckers are the people who toss money into the "best" deck, don't know how to run it, and expect to win.

I'll post more of my thoughts later, but on the whole, I think your correct.

 

[chriscobi634]

90% is a bit high. I would say 90% of the players playing the deck realized the combo, but I'd say 70% of the players playing the deck didn't actually build it until they saw it won multiple city championships. There might not be that many good netdeckers out there, but there are MANY good players that will jump on an idea the second they see it doing well.

the way I see G/G is as a cheap deck. The deck is like last year's infenape but better. There is very little need to run 4 rare candies in the list. Like I would rather do, 3 rare candy and 3 kirlia instead of 4 RC and 3 Kirlia. For consistency issues, but that's just me. I think some players run the 4 candy for hoping of getting that T2 on someone.

I know that the 4 candy can improve speed, that's another issue I have with the deck. I see a lot of players that play it and manipulate the time in their matches so well. Rarely do you see a G/G lose on time in Swiss, and in top cut it wins because of the quantity not the quality of the deck.

Another thing that bugs me is that this format would be so much more diverse had they not had have an exit door to every deck what would give it a hard time. I'll post it for like the 100th time here on the gym, it's not the Gallade that's completely broken, it's the fact that it can hide behind the Gardevoir vs. anything that can hit it back for a lot like Hurricane.

So I call the deck a 5 letter word i can't say on the gym, but a hint to it:
something you could call Delcatty. so 5 letter word.deck <Hope this doesn't get me banned.

 

[Prime]

Let's try not to put words in my mouth, samurai_soldier. My definitely of netdeckers is one who finds a decklist online and copies it card for card and plays the exact same list at a tournament. I don't feel that there are that many good netdeckers that can actually get away with it, but I will say that with cards like Magmortar and Gardy/Gallade, it is easier to netdeck and do well with those cards.

But for the majority, I don't feel most of the players are netdeckers, but I think many players do ride the wave, as in play the deck that is winning the most tournaments, because they want to win too. And that isn't bad. That's a good idea actually if you want to do well, but it just doesn't help increase the creativity in the game.

 

[Chromecatz]

So I call the deck a 5 letter word i can't say on the gym, but a hint to it:
something you could call Delcatty. so 5 letter word.deck <Hope this doesn't get me banned.

delcatty is a female CAT.

 

[bullados]

Chris: Do you think that Gallade would even be an average card without Gardy? Too many people harp on Gallade, not enough realize that the true power behind the deck is Gardy. Gallade is good for 2, 3 hits. Gardy is the setup, the control, and the power of the deck. Gallade is simply there b/c he one-shots anything, but can only do it once.

 

[SuperWooper]

There might not be that many good netdeckers out there, but there are MANY good players that will jump on an idea the second they see it doing well.

I don't understand. You want them not to emulate decks that they see are succeeding? That's counterproductive to OP's best interests. Without some conceptual metagame, players go into tournaments feeling much less secure than if they know what they can expect with some degree of accuracy. A stable metagame is nothing to criticize, and, as I've already illustrated, the game can be healthy even while the format is stagnant. If you're in it for the long haul, though, wait a couple months for Majestic Dawn. Nats should be one heck of a roller coaster ride.

 

[chriscobi634]

Chris: Do you think that Gallade would even be an average card without Gardy? Too many people harp on Gallade, not enough realize that the true power behind the deck is Gardy. Gallade is good for 2, 3 hits. Gardy is the setup, the control, and the power of the deck. Gallade is simply there b/c he one-shots anything, but can only do it once.

yes, if Gardevevoir had an attack that flipped you prized back down and did damage for that like 30x each prize, which would still benefit the deck, it would get steam rolled by Tsunami and magmotar. Well, magmortar is pretty good against it, like 55/45 depending a list build and the players obviously.

But Tsunami would just pwned the Gallade to the ground. My Tsunami list is extremely consistent, again at WI states 10 out of my 12 games or so (including top cut) I had T2/T3 benched Delcatty, Magneton, totodile, croconaw w/ 2 energies attached to it and something else depending on the matchup. By T3/T4 I would have the Gator hitting for 100 to 140 most of the time. That's pretty good IMO, but I need my powers for this. Gardy shuts them down making the matchup 70/30 in favor of G/G if not a near autoloss for Tsunami. In my fifth round, my opponent had a fully powered Tangrowth with 4 energies it got from a Togekiss. It has 110HP with -20 water resistance. I had like 4 energies and the Gator turn 3, but I waited it out to next turn to OHKO it. So it's like any other 130 HP pokemon, Gallade, Gardy lv. X, magmorar X (if it played holon ff as techs) blissey, and the mirror in gator. it keeps doing a consistent 100 to 140 every turn. which could sweep many deck like that opponent with Tangrowth.

They don't even have to get a Gallade going they just keep using Gardevoirs to lock your powers and it's done. Then they Lv. up so you can't get a 2HKO with Breaking Tail. On top of that they are Wagering like crazy in case you get a good hand going. And adding Plus powers and strength charms for the 2HKO on the gators when they keep Telepassing to get their next Gardevioir out while not allowing you to use your powers, and having you rely on supporters.

The same analysis is made for any power deck that gives it a hard time.

So to answer your question yes, the gallade would be just an OK card without the Gardy.

 

[Regis_Neo]

Imo, Magmotar is just annoying. G&G is a bit threatening imo, after all, it is supposed to be a potent combo anyways. And the Cressy Lv X techs are annoying also. At least I can say I played something not named Magmotar, G&G, Blissey, or even Honchkrow or Absol+random line for States.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Another thing that bugs me is that this format would be so much more diverse had they had have an exit door to every deck what would give it a hard time. I'll post it for like the 100th time here on the gym, it's not the Gallade that's completely broken, it's the fact that it can hide behind the Gardevoir vs. anything that can hit it back for a lot like Hurricane.

Just IMHO, but this is clearly a case where our format being different than Japan's really hurts. They have some interesting psychic cards that could potentially be a problem for G&G and they have other things that can help counter the "big two" of our format.

More specifically, the more I think about it the more I think that not having Legend Makers in format now is killing us. We could have G&G counters (Banette ex, Mew ex, Cursed Stone, etc.), Magmortar counters (Lunatone & Solrock, Rainbow energy to make Gyarados more playable, Cursed Stone again, etc.), and things that would have just helped in general (Lapras for consistancy, Giant Stump for bench clearing, Rainbow engery).

 

[chriscobi634]

Just IMHO, but this is clearly a case where our format being different than Japan's really hurts. They have some interesting psychic cards that could potentially be a problem for G&G and they have other things that can help counter the "big two" of our format.

More specifically, the more I think about it the more I think that not having Legend Makers in format now is killing us. We could have G&G counters (Banette ex, Mew ex, Cursed Stone, etc.), Magmortar counters (Lunatone & Solrock, Rainbow energy to make Gyarados more playable, Cursed Stone again, etc.), and things that would have just helped in general (Lapras for consistancy, Giant Stump for bench clearing, Rainbow engery).

Email your thanks to PUI for dropping LM.

 

[UnKnOwN 111]

Just IMHO, but this is clearly a case where our format being different than Japan's really hurts. They have some interesting psychic cards that could potentially be a problem for G&G and they have other things that can help counter the "big two" of our format.

More specifically, the more I think about it the more I think that not having Legend Makers in format now is killing us. We could have G&G counters (Banette ex, Mew ex, Cursed Stone, etc.), Magmortar counters (Lunatone & Solrock, Rainbow energy to make Gyarados more playable, Cursed Stone again, etc.), and things that would have just helped in general (Lapras for consistancy, Giant Stump for bench clearing, Rainbow engery).

i agree that we would have counters for G&G and Magmortor but do u really think if Leged Maker was STILL in the format that those decks would even be that popular to even think about counters for them?

IMO, id take creativity OVER consistency in ANY format.
because the fact of the matter is, if a deck gets good and its as easy to play as GG and Mag are then people cant help to play them. THAT is what makes the formats BORING! I hear people complaining about the format being boring and MOST of the people saying this format is boring are the ones playing GG, Mag and Hurricane/tsunami....this format WOULD b A LOT more fun if you lazy peope actually TRIED to play something different! One of my good friends at IL states said this format is a "two-trick-pony" :lol:, and i agree 100%! I know this isnt the thread to talk about the format but actually in a way it is since nearly everyone is playing consistent decks over creative ones. I HAVE NO PROBLEM with consistent decks and IM NOT sayin there boring, but i myself rather try something new(creative) instead of sticking with the same old thing.

because i, myself, would rather win with something not being played as much, maybe it would make other people say "HEY"...something else CAN actually work....Haha!

Email your thanks to PUI for dropping LM.

i rather send an email to ALL the pkmn players who complain about this format being boring and them doing NOTHING at all but adding to the cause and not doing ANYTHING about it!:thumb:

i thank you all very very much!



but im...


just and unknown pkmn player....:wink:

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

I hear people complaining about the format being boring and MOST of the people saying this format is boring are the ones playing GG, Mag and Hurricane/tsunami....this format WOULD b A LOT more fun if you lazy peope actually TRIED to play something different!

You know what, I haven't complained about a boring format and did run something different last week (Exploud) ... that in turn got me my worst record in an event since the very first one I ever went to.

My point was with LM in format that it would make the rogue / creative decks easier to play. Just as a random example if you wanted to play Torterra you could tech in Luna-Sol from LM and shut down both firestarter & energy draw. Then add a Crystal Beach to quench the scrambles and suddenly Magmortar doesn't have as much of an advantage as it did previously vs your fire weak grass deck.

I'm sure that G&G and Mags would still be top tier decks and widely played ... but the format would have opened just a bit.

 

[UnKnOwN 111]

You know what, I haven't complained about a boring format and did run something different last week (Exploud) ... that in turn got me my worst record in an event since the very first one I ever went to.

My point was with LM in format that it would make the rogue / creative decks easier to play. Just as a random example if you wanted to play Torterra you could tech in Luna-Sol from LM and shut down both firestarter & energy draw. Then add a Crystal Beach to quench the scrambles and suddenly Magmortar doesn't have as much of an advantage as it did previously vs your fire weak grass deck.

I'm sure that G&G and Mags would still be top tier decks and widely played ... but the format would have opened just a bit.

I NEVER sad YOU specificly sid the format was boring, that part didnt even ivolve you, i was jus putting a word in about the format. Sorry if i made it seem that way!

Im sure GG and Mag would widely played still but WHO KNOWS if it would still b a top tier deck.

 

[ChicoBlanco]

This is just a simple observance of the format and the game.

Creativity doesn't work at the moment. If creative deck could still do as well, the same 3 decks wouldn't have won 75% of the cities. Sure, there will always be a popular deck, but it's apparent when everyone you know switches from their own favorite deck to the same deck when one deck is dominating and nothing else can stand up to it.

Sometimes you can get away with a rogue deck, but I don't feel that is that possible for the non-brilliant players. There are very few brilliant players out there that could get away with a rogue deck. Everyone else ends up in the same situation. Play one of these 3-4 decks or don't play at all.

We've always had the game dominated by a handful of decks, but never before have I seen such a format where you really had to play those top decks to do well.

yea... its mainly the fact that quite frankly, some of the newer cards (Gallade for one) have just more overpowered attacks then the older cards.

I used a rogue I made at battle roads this year and got 2nd and 3rd at two different battle roads with it, but it took way more effort (& I'm sure wasn't as good) then if I were to use, say a Gallade deck.

usually that's how it is though.
the people that win more consistantly use the same archetypes over and over, and the rogue players don't do as well at smaller time tournaments.

nats/worlds is mainly where rogues pay off IMO, because with EVERYBODY there using an archetype, you're not gonna sweep the tournament just by using a Gardy/Gallade. but at smaller tournaments such as battle roads/cities/states/regionals, in most cases unfortunately, its usually better to stick with archetypes

 

[Ho Megas Alexandros]

Maybe Prime hasn't ever read a pokemon strategy guide, but pokemon IS rock paper scissors! I hate how soo many people are complaining about the game. It's been the same scenario for a decade get used to it already or get the friends out.

 

[eriknance]

Maybe Prime hasn't ever read a pokemon strategy guide, but pokemon IS rock paper scissors! I hate how soo many people are complaining about the game. It's been the same scenario for a decade get used to it already or get the friends out.

This is true! Just that the game at this same time last year was more like rock, paper, scissors, dynamite, hand grenade, bolt of lightning, fireball, laser gun, atom bomb...

Here's what we had to work with during States last year: Flariados, Polistall, Absolution, R-Gon, Raieggs, MetaNite, Flygon ex LM variants, MSNBC, Shiftry ex decks, MegaSteelix, Scythe, Destiny, Mewtric, Bandoom, T2RK9, Ludicargo, Tyroot, Speed Ban, SallyGross, Stantler variants, and Feraligatr d decks.

I get what you're saying about the "triangle effect" that seems to happen with this game, but you have to admit that choices to counter the popular decks right now are extremely limited. It's kind of disturbing that only Nationals and Worlds will see a decent array of decks this year (right? doesn't DP5 come out after Regionals?).

ps - 'grats on the nice finish this past weekend. :thumb: