Creating a ban/restriction list for a more fun and strategic Pokemon TCG

[vaporeon]

Yveltal is not a better Mewtwo. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Yveltal has dark patch support, has a X-Ball with 20 base damage, and not weak to itself. Its harder for most decks to respond to effectively and score a knockout. Normally when something is better in most or all ways, its widely considered better. Its like saying the Harrier is better than the F-22 because it can hover.

Ok? You quoted two of my points about OHKO decks being the norm in Modified since ages ago but didn't actually address the point at all.

I think I did. I would respect my friends input but it wont affect my deck choice. Perhaps techs though.

Whoosh.

You're literally saying that you primarily beat GG if they misplayed (forgetting to verify fighting resistance).

The misplay helped a lot but was not needed. Its always nice to not have a Pokemon knocked out, and your opponent flips over most of their prizes. Plus it was a spread deck with healing support. The deck also did not rely on abilities. It most cases, I used only 1 during the game, and that was when I can remove many Pokemon. Not saying I won every game against it but the match up was very favorable for me

I bring GG up because it's the sole example of a pokemon deck that was literally dominant for an entire season, being the #1 deck to play for Cities, States, Regionals, Nationals, AND Worlds in the same season.

Darkrai is doing this. Been dominant since HGSS, still dominat in XY.

No other deck that I'm aware of has ever been that much of a force.

Darkrai is still a thing... I want to say most older top decks that still float around

We've had other decks that were strong for a good chunk of a season but never ALL of it (also IIRC GG is the only deck to win both Nationals and Worlds in the same season?)

I could say Darkrai but yeah... You know.

The deck was ridiculously dominant, and honestly, if you really had such a great track record against GG, why didn't you win worlds? Should've been easy for you RIGHT? RIGHT?!!?!?!?! Lmao.

I dont have the opportunity to play in every tournament so I get to the ones I can. if I went to world, I dont expect it to be easy but I do look forward to favorable matchups. The question is what deck did you play?

 

[Tagrineth]

Yveltal has dark patch support, has a X-Ball with 20 base damage, and not weak to itself. Its harder for most decks to respond to effectively and score a knockout. Normally when something is better in most or all ways, its widely considered better. Its like saying the Harrier is better than the F-22 because it can hover.

Yveltal is only better in one specific build. You have to run it with Dark Patch and Dark Energy or it's pretty much useless. And guess what's going to stop being legal in 3 months? Not a better Mewtwo. Period.

I think I did. I would respect my friends input but it wont affect my deck choice. Perhaps techs though.

You made a quip about how it wouldn't affect YOUR deck choice but failed to address the simple and valid point that OHKO being important in the metagame is nothing new or unique or even unhealthy. It is what is and always has been.

The misplay helped a lot but was not needed. Its always nice to not have a Pokemon knocked out, and your opponent flips over most of their prizes. Plus it was a spread deck with healing support. The deck also did not rely on abilities. It most cases, I used only 1 during the game, and that was when I can remove many Pokemon. Not saying I won every game against it but the match up was very favorable for me

Okay, and that doesn't change the fact that GG was the juggernaut that was only dethroned when DRE rotated out.

Darkrai is doing this. Been dominant since HGSS, still dominat in XY.

Darkrai isn't the #1 most dominant deck unless you count literally every dark type variant as Darkrai. It's undeniably strong but it isn't as gamebreaking as GG was.

I dont have the opportunity to play in every tournament so I get to the ones I can. if I went to world, I dont expect it to be easy but I do look forward to favorable matchups. The question is what deck did you play?

At the time? I played GG. Hardly got to play the game though, I have never had a huge income to be able to afford much travel. I'm more inclined to judge when I can. The last big event I actually played in was either States or Regionals last year, I keep forgetting which one it was, made top 16 with ZekEels then got lucksacked by CMT. On extremely minimal practice (we didn't even have a stable league at the time).

 

[vaporeon]

Yveltal is only better in one specific build. You have to run it with Dark Patch and Dark Energy or it's pretty much useless. And guess what's going to stop being legal in 3 months? Not a better Mewtwo. Period.

Decks that can move energy also use it well and since its so restrictive to 1 good deck type, it adds to its OPness and since things like Mewtwo will be gone soon, it creates a format where you need to have a counter to beat it and it has no real counters.

You made a quip about how it wouldn't affect YOUR deck choice but failed to address the simple and valid point that OHKO being important in the metagame is nothing new or unique or even unhealthy. It is what is and always has been.

Well OHKOs are pretty bad for the meta when they are so easy to achieve. The are important to the format because attacking by turn 2 is important. Overpowered bench sitters and trainers dont help with that. Just because it is does not mean its good or healthy for the game. What is even more of a problem is EX pokemon are being OHKOed.

Okay, and that doesn't change the fact that GG was the juggernaut that was only dethroned when DRE rotated out.

Yeah, it was but there were other decks you could play to beat it. You could have been more creative. Meta is not the only answer.

Darkrai isn't the #1 most dominant deck unless you count literally every dark type variant as Darkrai. It's undeniably strong but it isn't as gamebreaking as GG was.

How do you figure? Both decks do what they do well. GG locked powers, Darkrai can lock abilities, swarm Yveltal, abuse Sableye and items, has deck space advantage others decks dont have. Darkrai can also run any tech it wants. GG does not want to take Darkrai on because Darkrai can do what GG does better. Darkrai has also gotten stronger over the years, not weaker and you can bet Darkrai will be at worlds again.

At the time? I played GG.

Well there's your problem.

Hardly got to play the game though, I have never had a huge income to be able to afford much travel. I'm more inclined to judge when I can. The last big event I actually played in was either States or Regionals last year, I keep forgetting which one it was, made top 16 with ZekEels then got lucksacked by CMT. On extremely minimal practice (we didn't even have a stable league at the time).

Sounds about right. I dont play much but when I do, I do well.

 

[Tagrineth]

What do you mean Mewtwo will be gone soon? Mewtwo isn't going anywhere, it was reprinted in LT. Unlike Dark Patch, which will more or less signal the end of Yveltal when it cycles. Yveltal being restricted to 1 deck type doesn't make it more OP. Wat.

OHKOs are always "easy to achieve" if the deck is built to do them. It's all the same stuff just with a new paint job. Who cares if EX pokemon can be OHKOed? Especially when said EX pokemon that can OHKO all have format checks that can OHKO them right back fairly efficiently.

I never said GG was unbeatable, Darkrai isn't either. GG was excessively dominant because it had no truly bad matchups (either Gallade blew something up or Gardevoir locked something out). Can't say the same for Darkrai.

 

[joelsoh]

I'll start by saying that Pokemon has gotten out of hand. In the other thread I posted about Side decks in Pokemon, most of you did not want to give it a time of day and others saying it wont work because its Pokemon and the cards are not design for it, which I don't agree with because many cards find life as side deck materials. However, in a game where you can play 4 of everything, a side deck seems almost worthless to the less competitive and some of the more competitive who want to play tier 1 decks because its a easy win but thats not fun and is ruining the fun of the game.

...

Before I weigh in, can I ask, is this for our current format, or for all cards in existence?
Is this for 40 card decks for 60?
15 card side like YGO?

 

[vaporeon]

Before I weigh in, can I ask, is this for our current format, or for all cards in existence?
Is this for 40 card decks for 60?
15 card side like YGO?

For this format, continuing on but only with standard 60 card decks and would be side decks.

 

[joelsoh]

For this format, continuing on but only with standard 60 card decks and would be side decks.

However, in a game where you can play 4 of everything, a side deck seems almost worthless to the less competitive and some of the more competitive who want to play tier 1 decks because its a easy win but thats not fun and is ruining the fun of the game.

Worthless to the less competitive because they probably don't know what they are doing. A side deck to the more competitive would be a godsend actually. It's not an "easy win" as you put it.

1. You can side to counter your decks weaknesses. E.g. Megaphones for Garb or Stage 1/2 lines for Pyroar
2. You can elect to "counter counter". Meaning, if you believe people will try and side Raichu because you play Yveltal, you can side in Landorus.

This introduces are whole new level of thinking and strategy into the game.
And... "worthless to the less competitive and some of the more competitive"? Then who'll side?! The... sort of competitive people?

because its a easy win but thats not fun and is ruining the fun of the game.
You can't say what's fun for people and what isn't.

I would restrict Juniper/Sycamore to 1 per deck, to help slow the pace of the game and for more strategic plays. Players wont burn their only Juniper/Sycamore to find 1 card and players can use other cards and perhaps better deck design, other trainers and draw support can be played. I would also restrict N but N would be put at 2 per deck. Another problem with the game is its draw power. While it can't be helped as its a fundamental flaw of the game, this format will offer more balance and skill. The goal is to not remove draw from the game but to slow it down and allow other options.

Less speed doesn't mean more strategic. The heart of strategy comes from deck creation. Creating the deck to deal with the multiple situations you could potentially face, as well as how to play the cards you're dealt. Even with a deck with one Juniper, I'd burn it to get me the switch or whatever I need. Especially since your ban list doesn't list Pal Pad anywhere. All you're doing is hitting the better draw cards, as an excuse to make the other ones more usable. It shows that when you make a ban list, you don't try and ban what is broken, you try and restrict what is powerful.

Your ban list seems... crazy. Here's why.
Dark Claw banned, Muscle Band @2. - The clearly better item is less restricted then the item that already has restrictions on it.
Energy Retrieval, Superior Energy Retrieval, Professor Letter @1 - Seriously? What's the problem? Anything that could possibly use multiple energies has been shut down by your ban list (Black Kyurem EX/Yveltal/Mewtwo)
Rayquaza EX @4 - Exactly the same as BKEX. Giant inconsistency.

There's honestly a lot more to it. If you want to make a ban list, you'd want to expand the pool of cards to like what YGO does. But if you made the list, way too many cards would be banned or restricted. You should go about making the list differently.

 

[joelsoh]

I do also want to post something positive-ish about your idea of a ban list. I feel, just perhaps, that people are forgetting that in Pokemon, card combos can't infinite loop like YGO can, nor can you insta-win with a combo similar to Porydonk, not in this format anyway. You would use a ban list slightly differently for Pokemon as compared to YGO.

If a ban list for this format only were to be created, it would have to somehow lower either the consistency or power of decks. This is how I feel YGO works. Unfortunately, this does mean some decks just failed to function well (Final Countdown for example).

- Chaos Emperor Dragon can cause your opponent to have a hand of 0 and never draw a card ever again? Banned.
- EEV strong, but can shut down opponents so hard you'll win? Limited.

In the case of Pokemon, it's a very delicate balancing system. I wouldn't elect to limit draw. The decks are simply too thick for that.

Hoping we understand where I'm coming from.

 

[sToRm07]

Vaporeon guy, I don't think you realize how pointless a ban list will be for this game. You want to ban tier 1 cards? There is a whole slew of tier 2 cards that will replace tier 1 - and I can guarantee you will deem them overpowered. So what then? Ban tier 2? Welp, Tier 3 says hello. This process will continue, until you are left fantasizing about quad magikarp's matchup vs. the current bdif, quad feebas.

Achieving balance in a game is so much harder than most people realize. I hate to say this, but you are grossly over-simplifying the deceptively delicate art of balance. : (

 

[vaporeon]

Worthless to the less competitive because they probably don't know what they are doing. A side deck to the more competitive would be a godsend actually. It's not an "easy win" as you put it.

You can side to counter your decks weaknesses. E.g. Megaphones for Garb or Stage 1/2 lines for Pyroar
You can elect to "counter counter". Meaning, if you believe people will try and side Raichu because you play Yveltal, you can side in Landorus.

Thats the point of a side deck. You do what you think is best for your match up. With the given space you have (We'll say 15 since its a common number), you have to pick whats best for your deck. If it means you prepare for pyroar and you use all 15 spaces for it, then you auto win 1 match up, BUT a experienced Pyroar player has the chance to do the same. As for counter counters, We already said Raichu is not the only good counter against Yveltal. Zapdos does not mind getting taking hits from landorus. Its paperclips as for a Zapdos cares. Also, Articuno is a thing as well.

This introduces are whole new level of thinking and strategy into the game.

Thats not a bad thing. Going back to your first point, players dont have have to use side decks so newer or less experience players wont miss much but if they want to go competitive, it'll be best to learn them.

You can't say what's fun for people and what isn't.

Fair enough but Im sure many players would agree the format isn't fun. Perhaps a poll is in order?

Less speed doesn't mean more strategic.

This is true but Pokemon isn't a "speedy" game, which most cards require some setup. Speed is not bad but these fast basics out speed a large majority of the card pool. Its like Akuma in super street fighter 2 turbo.

The heart of strategy comes from deck creation.

True, no argument there.

Creating the deck to deal with the multiple situations you could potentially face, as well as how to play the cards you're dealt.

Side decks allow decks that cant deal with "every deck" be able to make counter plays without losing consistency. The imbalance comes from these basics requiring less deck space to deal 1 or 2HKOs. On top of that, they can use more cards than evolution decks and that number is at least 10 cards. As for playing with what your dealt. What do you do if you're playing against Darkrai/Yveltal and your opening hand is Pidgey, Pidgey, Rare Candy, Rare Candy, Rare Candy, Juniper, Juniper and you draw Rare Candy/ What do you do? How do you play this hand? Just so you know, I've drawn this hand many times with evolutions decks.

Even with a deck with one Juniper, I'd burn it to get me the switch or whatever I need.

Thats the problem. Juniper is the biggest offender of the speed issue. With only 1 Juniper, you get that 1 big turn. If you want to hit that switch, you have Skyla. Juniper at 1 makes big basics slower, putting them on the same level as Evolution decks.

Especially since your ban list doesn't list Pal Pad anywhere.

Pal Pad is not a flawed design, however, the supporters are. Better to limit the supporter than Pal Pad.

All you're doing is hitting the better draw cards, as an excuse to make the other ones more usable. It shows that when you make a ban list, you don't try and ban what is broken, you try and restrict what is powerful.

Well no, I'm hitting the cards I feel are a problem with this format, as well as trying to see what would be a problem in the next format. Big basics dont seem to be going anywhere anytime soon so this would be a way to prevent them from overcentralizing the meta.

 

[vaporeon]

Vaporeon guy, I don't think you realize how pointless a ban list will be for this game. You want to ban tier 1 cards? There is a whole slew of tier 2 cards that will replace tier 1 - and I can guarantee you will deem them overpowered. So what then? Ban tier 2? Welp, Tier 3 says hello. This process will continue, until you are left fantasizing about quad magikarp's matchup vs. the current bdif, quad feebas.

What proof do you have to say a ban list is pointless? I would love to see it. A ban list is to rebalance to format, not ban everything. You also know thats not how it works.

Achieving balance in a game is so much harder than most people realize. I hate to say this, but you are grossly over-simplifying the deceptively delicate art of balance. : (

Really its not. Its super easy to make a balance game. In magic the gathering, I would not print a indestructible 20/20 creature with a mana cost of 0. In Yugioh, you dont make a card that wins you the duel (a 2 out of 3). They did this with a card named Victory Dragon, which was banned instantly because of... Well, you know. and in Pokemon, you dont print basic Pokemon that go against a core rule design.

I dont care that EX Pokemon are powerful. For a 2 prize trade off, they should be able to defend themselves but a lot of them are too good. Its best to not make these pokemon have unlimited damage output based on energy in play or scoring 1 hit kills. What I DO have a problem with is rather than fix the problem Evolution decks face, they would RATHER print them as basic EXs.

There should be a common ground between non evolving basic/EX and Stage 1 or 2 (which ever is the final form) and there isn't. Research of your own game will help with balance. Perhaps its not best to make a EX, which only require 1 deck space, completely dominate a card or cards which require 3 deck spaces. How many Pidgeys will go down to Yveltal before the Pidgeot comes out? Pidgeot will just go down after attacking it. Substitute Pidgey or Pidgeot for any other attacking stage 2 if Pidgeot would because a ad hominem for you.

 

[raxl]

Really its not. Its super easy to make a balance game. In magic the gathering, I would not print a indestructible 20/20 creature with a mana cost of 0.

...I can't tell if this is meant to be a subtle joke or not, because they pretty much did that in Coldsnap. It's a land, Dark Depths, that enters play with ten counters on it, and you can remove a counter for 3 colorless mana, and when you remove all the counters you get an indestructible 20/20 creature; on its own it costs 30 mana, but there are a number of two and three-card combos that let you cheat it into play for essentially zero mana. (In fairness, it's banned in one Magic format, but is played and doesn't warp the metagame in others.)

So what does this mean for Pokemon?

In some sense it is easy to make a balanced game: You just make all of the cards the same, or give everyone the same deck, and then who wins will come down purely to randomness and play skill. But that's not very fun --- you don't get to build your own deck that does unique things, you don't get to do exciting things your opponent can't do, you just play the game as it stands. Chess is great, but Pokemon is about the ways Pokemon are different from each other and how that translates into exciting card effects, and about the complicated looping rock-paper-scissors of type advantage. The designers have the very difficult (in my opinion) challenge of continually printing cards that make us say "Whoah, look at _that_ new effect!" while not printing cards that distort the metagame. What "distorting the metagame" even is depends on your opinion, too; to me the problem is not when some cards are clearly more powerful than other cards, as in that case, the solution is to play some of those cards and then cards that counter them.

Cards that bend everything around that individual card can be more problematic (as can broken combos, like the Sableye decks that forced early rotation before Nationals 2011); Mewtwo EX early in its tenure, for example, produced a format that was very close to "four or five decks with different strategies for powering up and streaming Mewtwos, and some other attackers to try to make opponents take seven prizes and/or counter fringe decks." Maybe that's what the developers intended, but I thought it wasn't a great format. Mewtwo plays much better in an environment with other cards at a similar power level; when you have Mewtwo, Darkrai, Rayquaza, and other powerful EXes, you can build around any one or two of those and that also makes more ancillary cards playable. You can make an argument for a card like Hypnotoxic Laser being format-warmping, and not coincidentally a lot of folks in this thread have admitted "Yeah, maybe it would be reasonable to ban that card."

We don't have much insight into the Pokemon development team; we don't know how they test or what kind of environment they want to produce. We just have the cards. It's possible that, with the additional information of how the metagame has shaken out and how decks play against each other, we could make decisions that would improve the metagame. If I were going to make a banlist, though, I'd start with a very delicate touch, restricting one or two cards, and then play a large number of games with a large number of decks to see what happened. The more cards you remove from the environment, the less your existing intuition about the format will serve you when you try to make decisions about the game, because the format will be materially different. This is especially true if all of the cards you're talking about banning are near the top of the power curve and staples in the decks that your intuition is built on. That's the real problem I have with your methodology here.

 

[vaporeon]

^ The cards I have listed are the ones I feel are bad for the current format and the format Im trying to create. I'm trying to give evolution decks a chance to play on a even playing field. Removing OHKO cards and basic pokemon with x-ball effects is the way to do that. Im not removing or limiting the "good" cards of all the different decks but removing the biggest offenders of the imbalance. The Power Creep of the cards also seem to be very random so its hard to see what is really the issue because we do have broken stage 1 and stage 2 Pokemon as well.

Its hard to see how the new format will turn out but Im really trying to get evolution decks a chance to do well.

 

[LunarWolf21]

Dark Claw banned, Muscle Band @2. - The clearly better item is less restricted then the item that already has restrictions on it.

I would just like to point out that just because a card is better, doesn't inherently make it more fair. In this case, Dark Claw only benefits Dark Pokemon, whereas Muscle Band benefits everyone, and is thus a fairer card, since it supports all decks equally.

I'm not saying either card should ever be considered for a banlist, just pointing out that a banlist is about more than just banning what's the most powerful.