Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community
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vanderbilt_grad
New Member
Well one could argue that the winner was the more skilled deckbuilder and metagamer. Those count for something right?
Uxie donk is not good for the game as a whole ... but the fault really is with those who decide the format. LA, SF, & PT have pretty much defined THREE YEARS worth of events. It's those cards when combined with a few new things that are still over the top. Gengar SF, Gyarados SF, SP decks, Uxie, Poke Drawer +, etc.
Uxie donk is not good for the game as a whole ... but the fault really is with those who decide the format. LA, SF, & PT have pretty much defined THREE YEARS worth of events. It's those cards when combined with a few new things that are still over the top. Gengar SF, Gyarados SF, SP decks, Uxie, Poke Drawer +, etc.
Game at cities this past saturday, I open with ambipom g and skuntank, with Cyrus and some other promising stuff, I get the lucky chance to go first, attach energy and pass. My opponent goes, bts, seadra, kingdra prime, energy, Uxie, expert belt, drop another 2 basics, candy, machamp, Uxie AGAIN, finally play a supporter. By this point I think I'm shuffling my deck. I think Uxie is the real speed problem.
My stance is that games are decided by who satisfies the first win condition. Games are often won by the less skilled player. Besides, how do you judge skill in a game other than by who wins it?
Porii Sames
Active Member
^Totally agreed.
What if I don't like players taking 6 prize cards against me? They are satisfying a win condition; it's how they win, and donks are no different.
What if I don't like players taking 6 prize cards against me? They are satisfying a win condition; it's how they win, and donks are no different.
I am sooooooo sick of this. The thing about donks, IS THAT IT TAKE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SKILL.
Porii Sames
Active Member
One could argue that taking 6 prizes in Luxchomp vs. something like Blastgatr (throwin' that out there) takes no skill. Bright Look, FI, Spray Set Up, Flash Bite, Rush the Croconaw, etc.
...
I think that what you are saying takes a LLLLOOOOOOTTTT more skill than attaching a darkness energy and saying GG.
Box of Fail
New Member
Ironically, I kind of disagree that the more skilled player should sweep consistently. Ultimately, it is a good thing for a noob who netdecks Machamp donk to win. If the most skilled player wins everything, it can kill the fun for a large chunk or the player base - the Pokémon message that anyone can reach the top is demonstrated, and it is healthy for the game if a new player occasionally outshines worlds-level competitors purely on luck.
Does the fact that you are a superior player, with a superior deck, who has contributed hundreds of dollars and countless hours of testing into preparing for a tournament mean you "deserve" to win more than Joe Smith, at his first tournament with a netdecked donk deck? We have tons of the former group, who have been here for years; those from the latter group will quit in a heartbeat, so it is best to let them have the limelight. Ultimately, tournaments are a test of skill but oftentimes more of luck, and I believe that is a good thing for the game. While skill, dedication and loyalty to the game are often found in winners, I don't think they should automatically earn a win.
Except for who goes first, Chess is entirely a test of skill, and people who think skill should guarantee victory should go there. Pokémon doesn't look for the more skilled player, merely the one who happens to win. Skill is huge, but if a world champ loses to a new player, it shows a very well-designed game befitting of Pokémon's overall message.
NoPoke
Active Member
I agree with Box of Fail. Donks are not inherently bad. The presence of luck is a strength of pokemon and not a weakness.
I would add the proviso that such "donk"/ luck wins should not get out of hand and start to dominate the environment. It should matter who you are playing, it should matter what your opponent is playing.
Even in Chess the strongest player does not always win, they are only expected to win the majority of the time.
I would add the proviso that such "donk"/ luck wins should not get out of hand and start to dominate the environment. It should matter who you are playing, it should matter what your opponent is playing.
Even in Chess the strongest player does not always win, they are only expected to win the majority of the time.
Scipio
New Member
Just saying, out of my 7 losses this season, 5 have been donks and 1 was a curbstomb game (Blaziken vs Turtwig).
Donks themselves aren't neccesarily bad for the game, if in moderation (Think back to Riolu vs Holon Castform, or Infernape + DRE). But those are all, like I said earlier, SITUATIONAL donks. They happen because you have a lone basic, or because you happen to have weakness. Those happen.
But the donks that we see nowadays are just stupid. The following cards can pull easy donks:
Uxie. Shuppet. Dunsparce (lets not forget about him), Kingdra, Jumpluff, Donphan, Machamp, Sableye. And then there are the more situational donk cards, like Garchomp C, Ambipom G and the works. None of them really care about what they face, they're gonna donk it most likely anyway (Unless you start with, say, Dialga G, and even then Uxie, Shuppet, Dunsparce and Machamp can trololol you all day long, and even Kingdra and Jumpluff can thanks to Belt and Crobat). Thats the whole stupidity of the current state. Back when we had DX/HP On, donks were rare. I can't recall a T1 loss from before LA, when I got faced with T1 Kingdra + Buck + Pluspower.
Had it been just Kingdra, it wouldn't be a huge issue. We've always had speed decks that could demolish stuff early game but would likely falter if a big deck managed to set up (For example DX-On had Banette Ex). But at least those speed decks allowed for a game to be played out...
Donks themselves aren't neccesarily bad for the game, if in moderation (Think back to Riolu vs Holon Castform, or Infernape + DRE). But those are all, like I said earlier, SITUATIONAL donks. They happen because you have a lone basic, or because you happen to have weakness. Those happen.
But the donks that we see nowadays are just stupid. The following cards can pull easy donks:
Uxie. Shuppet. Dunsparce (lets not forget about him), Kingdra, Jumpluff, Donphan, Machamp, Sableye. And then there are the more situational donk cards, like Garchomp C, Ambipom G and the works. None of them really care about what they face, they're gonna donk it most likely anyway (Unless you start with, say, Dialga G, and even then Uxie, Shuppet, Dunsparce and Machamp can trololol you all day long, and even Kingdra and Jumpluff can thanks to Belt and Crobat). Thats the whole stupidity of the current state. Back when we had DX/HP On, donks were rare. I can't recall a T1 loss from before LA, when I got faced with T1 Kingdra + Buck + Pluspower.
Had it been just Kingdra, it wouldn't be a huge issue. We've always had speed decks that could demolish stuff early game but would likely falter if a big deck managed to set up (For example DX-On had Banette Ex). But at least those speed decks allowed for a game to be played out...
meganium45
Active Member
The real problem is now that the cat is out of the bag, for the rest of the season, you have to look over your shoulder. Nervous that that "random" opponent you face from Chicago at Regionals or Nationals will be Rob, or one of the posse playing Quaddonk, and you thought the deck was dead, so didn't tech against it.
That is what makes Quaddonk terrifying. It will always be there as a threat.
Vince
That is what makes Quaddonk terrifying. It will always be there as a threat.
Vince
You can't tech against something that intends to beat you on the first turn, your odds of having said card in said matchup are way too small, your only option is to alter a significant portion of your deck.
SLOW DECK
New Member
I played in my 3rd cities this weekend. Still swore off Uxie donk, but played a rogueish Dunsparse Donk / Garchomp C combo. I went 4-2, I know with my opponent starting boards, I might have went 6-0 if I was playing Uxie, but I enjoyed playing a real / interactive battles. I enjoyed the losses, just as much as the games I won.
If Lost World comes out next set, wouldn't the Gengar's become more prevalant? Thus maybe the uxie donk will become further marginalized.
If Lost World comes out next set, wouldn't the Gengar's become more prevalant? Thus maybe the uxie donk will become further marginalized.
Gaelen1227
New Member
new players who can tap into donk resources can actualy stand a chance in large events so yes it is healthy
Some, if not most, of the LostGar builds might opt for a turbo set-up approach through extensive trainer use rather than the spritiomb, a-typical "Vilegar" approach to set-up.
In other words, it'll probably be the same, lol
toxictaipan
New Member
If it takes "skill" to build a consistent donk deck and "luck is just part of the game," then why don't we all stop showing up with 60 card decks of Pokemon cards and instead we all build our own coins (the skill) designed to flip heads as consistently as possible (the luck). First to tails loses... Have fun, folks.
I know this is kinda extreme, but really, think about it.
I know this is kinda extreme, but really, think about it.
meganium45
Active Member
That's essentially what unlimited is right now.
Go first = lose.
That's why noone plays that format for too long.
Vince
Go first = lose.
That's why noone plays that format for too long.
Vince
Because "look you dont need to actually think, you can just beat experienced players without any effort" will show them that pokemon is a great game, :thumb:
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